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Post by toosensitive on Jan 24, 2011 19:17:35 GMT -5
Looking at my next upgrade/expansion into Muzzleloading. Reading about Savage ML10. Lots of positives but I get the feeling Savage is getting out of the business and I don't see any other makers out there unless you go to custom. What's the scoop? Are liabilities pushing this technology out of the market? I've read Savage may release some additional rifles in the next few months, but then stop. Possibly getting rid of surplus parts?
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nsb
Forkhorn
Posts: 77
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Post by nsb on Jan 24, 2011 19:23:09 GMT -5
I have one and really like it. However, it's a minority of muzzleloading shooters who will lay out that kind of money just to buy one. Savage sales have declined as everyone who wanted one got one. There are less hunters every year. Sales aren't going up, they're going down. Compare the cost of a Savage ML2 to the other non-smokeless guns out there. Pretty high. They just aren't for everyone.
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Jan 24, 2011 19:48:35 GMT -5
1 Problem is that the average hunter is going to buy just enough mzloader to extend his season, Just in case he has another opportunity. Since it isn't the primary gun to hunt with in most cases, Most don't feel the need to spend the extra $ Now if you live in a state like I do and its slug guns and ML for deer only. That is another topic altogether. Lets face it these thing's ain't cheap. And try to convince some naysayer that you can shoot 1.25 groups @ 200yds with only 3.5" of drop.
Drop
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Post by chuck41 on Jan 24, 2011 20:02:28 GMT -5
There are some other non-smokeless guns that are similar in price to the ML2. Unfortunately, smokeless also has many detractors who swear it is inheritantly dangerous and lots of local gun stores simply won't carry them, including many of the major box stores such as Wal Mart. Potential liability might be a part of Savage's decision, but changing lines among firearms manufacturers to maximize profit is a very common occurrence.
I suspect the major part is simply economics. They feel it would be better for the company to direct the necessary assets to producing something else. I wish them well. Savage makes a bunch of great products. We will miss the ML10-2, but there are plenty other alternatives to get a good smokeless ML for those of us who really want one.
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Post by toosensitive on Jan 24, 2011 23:28:34 GMT -5
Looks like I got into in-line hunting a little too late. Seen some new ones for sale on G.Broker for $7-800. I love the accu-trigger, (have Model 40 .22 Hornet and Model 14 American Classic .22-250) and was hoping for similar trigger. Time to visit some gun shows.
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Post by dans on Jan 25, 2011 6:11:31 GMT -5
With the addition of a Pac Nor barrel several different actions can be built into a smokeless muzzleloader. Just saying.
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Post by screwbolts on Jan 25, 2011 6:53:54 GMT -5
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Post by 10ga on Jan 25, 2011 8:55:54 GMT -5
The driving force for MLs in general is increased hunting opportunities. Some places it's just a few days, some longer. MLing is not the principal and superior method in most areas but it is in some, mostly where shotgun is the only other choice, like here where I live. That is a rather small "niche" market to say the least. Considering the cost and effort to make a SML shoot good most people arn't gonna do that. It aint like buying a 30-30 or 06 and a couple boxes of shells and shooting 2 moa. A smokeless ML takes effort and knowledge. Add on the tons of misinformation out there that is anti SML and the anti SML regulations there just arn't that many people anxious to get into it. It is places like this board, the mfgrs like Bad Bull and Swinglock and the people who convert stuff like Encore barrels that will keep it going. As for cost if Savage can make a stevens and it's sold for less than $350 then a SML can be made for not very much more. Problem you can't just buy 2 packs of 20 shells and go shooting and hunting. Takes effort. Then, like my brother in law "my Omega shoots 2700 fps and 5" at 300 yards with 3 pellets and my kid has a Wolf that's just as good"! Then he asked me if my MLII would do that, how do you answer an idiot like that? I do my part to spread the word but the unbelivers and "it's dangerous" naysayers are numerous. I would laugh but ignorance isn't funny. 10 ga
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Post by pposey on Jan 25, 2011 9:05:21 GMT -5
I'd tell old brother inlaw to bring a couple hundred dollar bills to the shooting range,,,,
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2011 9:15:13 GMT -5
Im LOL that was funny 10ga. Yeah, I just found out this week I am not SUPPOSED to shoot smokeless in Fl. which really sucks also I have a ML1 which is also not legal.
I bought my savage because I was not satisfied with my cva,powerbelts,and pellets. I even have rem700ml that did not work well because of the blowback.
Anyway, I can use it in Alabama, "as far as Im concerned"
so thats what i'll do. My 2cnts.
GH
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Post by edge on Jan 25, 2011 9:45:51 GMT -5
Why would the ML-1 not be legal in Florida? Just shoot a sub like T7 or BH209.
edge.
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Post by chuck41 on Jan 25, 2011 11:34:11 GMT -5
Why would the ML-1 not be legal in Florida? Just shoot a sub like T7 or BH209. edge. Or carry some vials of T7 or BH209 in your pocket. (How many times have you heard of a wildlife officer having someone remove a breachplug to examine the powder in their gun? ;D) |
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Post by fishhawk on Jan 25, 2011 11:55:50 GMT -5
10ga, said "I do my part to spread the word". After I did a couple seminars at sports shows last year on muzzleloading, including smokeless potential. Since then I decided not to talk up smokeless for fear of it gaining popularity and drawing negative scrutiny of the law makers. Several states don't allow it I don't want my state added to the list!
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Post by craigf on Jan 25, 2011 12:32:13 GMT -5
Why would the ML-1 not be legal in Florida? Just shoot a sub like T7 or BH209. edge. Or carry some vials of T7 or BH209 in your pocket. (How many times have you heard of a wildlife officer having someone remove a breachplug to examine the powder in their gun? ;D) Chuck, there have been reports of game wardens making a hunter shoot in his presence to make sure smoke comes out. The biggest issue, at least for me, is that we should be men of our word, hunting smokeless with all of its advantages is not worth telling a lie to me. I know that you were joking though.  |
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Dave1
8 Pointer
Posts: 131
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Post by Dave1 on Jan 26, 2011 7:39:29 GMT -5
The state fish and game commisions in many states, Florida included, are concerned about declining numbers of hunters and they are looking for ways to expand hunting and hunting opportunities to get more people into hunting. Youth hunting programs and the inclusion of crossbows into archery seasons in many states is a good example.
In an effort to get smokeless powder/guns legalized, now might be the right time to communicate the positive information and support of smokeless muzzleloaders to the representitives of your state fish and game commision. Safety, accuracy, and ease of use would likely be the best features to point out and not try to make the smokeless gun appear comparable to a centerfire rifle in performance.
If smokeless was legalized in more or all states, you may see an increase in production smokeless products and the cost come down.
Dave
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Post by chuck41 on Jan 26, 2011 12:27:53 GMT -5
Or carry some vials of T7 or BH209 in your pocket. (How many times have you heard of a wildlife officer having someone remove a breachplug to examine the powder in their gun? ;D) Chuck, there have been reports of game wardens making a hunter shoot in his presence to make sure smoke comes out. The biggest issue, at least for me, is that we should be men of our word, hunting smokeless with all of its advantages is not worth telling a lie to me. I know that you were joking though. Bummer. Wonder what smoke generating additive on top of the powder load would be non-fouling? ;D |
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Post by Savage Shooter on Jan 26, 2011 13:06:28 GMT -5
Chuck, there have been reports of game wardens making a hunter shoot in his presence to make sure smoke comes out. The biggest issue, at least for me, is that we should be men of our word, hunting smokeless with all of its advantages is not worth telling a lie to me. I know that you were joking though. Bummer. Wonder what smoke generating additive on top of the powder load would be non-fouling? ;D It takes surprisingly little Black Powder to make "enough" smoke. Fouling is not a problem either (the smokeless burns it clean)....I had rather not go into "how" I know this. |
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Post by RandyTheReloader on Jan 26, 2011 19:21:26 GMT -5
Well fellas here we are peck'n out what we THINK will happen with the future of smokeless muzzleloading.All the while the SHOT SHOW is in it's 5th full swing day in Vegas.It's only gonna be a matter of time before the new model by "whichever" major gunmaker shows up there to be shown off.Mark my words.Especially once they all see what the Savages have been selling for since the production stopped.Then there'll go my newly aquired increa$ed Savage ML gun value$ down the toliet.Thank you Mr.Coburn & BOD at $avage Arm$.Money talks B$ walks fellas,always has! ;D I wouldn't doubt if T/C doesn't buy the rights.Developing one for the market in a couple years.We'll all be around to see it.Don't fret.....
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Post by chuck41 on Jan 27, 2011 1:00:17 GMT -5
Well, Randy I sincerely hope someone picks up the torch and continues on the smokeless road. My ML 10-II/Pacnor 40 is not for sale at any price so I have nothing to lose whether the values go through the roof or the floor.
If no company chooses to jump on the smokeless bandwagon right away there is still a number of ways to get one for those of us who are willing to spend a few bucks and elicit the assistance of the various sources mentioned on this board. Should one or more of my four grandsons want one I will make sure that they also know how to do it as well, but that wouldn't be possible had I not stumbled upon this board with all the guys who have shared so much toward our common enlightenment.
With the encouragement of so many here who have been so helpful for the last few years, I think smokeless muzzleloading has a bright future ahead whatever happens with Savage's plans and the Shot Show.
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nsb
Forkhorn
Posts: 77
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Post by nsb on Jan 27, 2011 7:57:48 GMT -5
Well said, Chuck41. I doubt many on here are concerned about the market fluctuation on the value of their ML2. Most on here appear to be shooters who get into this game to shoot, hunt, and tinker. I don't see where Randy's going with his comments about Savage, its board of directors, etc. Total cost of a new Savage ML2 really isn't much of an "investment". They aren't cheap but they also aren't what most people would call a lot of money either. If anyone's looking to invest some money they'd be better off putting it into a 401k instead of a ML2.
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