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Post by Savage Shooter on Jan 20, 2011 16:08:48 GMT -5
Speaking generalities here:::::::::
In your opinion::::::::
Comparing accuracy "potential" due to design only::::::
Single shot break open vs bolt gun,,,,,,which would you expect to possess the best accuracy "potential" across the board.
Reason I am asking is that I have had a couple of bad experiences with break open rifles.....they shot minute of deer OK but do not live here anymore, now I am probably spoiled shooting Savage guns but many guns later I have never had any problems getting a Savage gun, of any caliber, to shoot "something" tight.
Been really on the fence about re barreling a savage ML to 45 vs a H&R Ultra 45-70 to 45 via threading for breechplug. I know not quite fair comparison due to probable better barrel quality for a re barrel Savage, but considerable difference in cost of the 2 paths.
Then again my experience as been custom smooth barrels are not always a necessity to build a good shooter dealing with muzzleloaders.
I would have to buy a gun to build a 45 as my old SS Laminate .50 bears some sentimental value simply because it shoots to good to work on.
If I go the Savage route I would buy one of the "last run" guns along with factory laminate stock then re barrel to 45.
Handi Ultra and add breech plug would cut this cost at least in half. Handi barrels are not stress relieved and that kinda scares me bit, but doesn't really matter either as were not shooting them hot anyway.
Decisively impaired at the moment.
Opinions please
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Post by Richard on Jan 20, 2011 16:32:05 GMT -5
I am kind of partial to bolt guns since you can bed the action and then have a long forend where the barrel is free floated. I think your break opens have a shorter forend; also free floating can not be accomplished.........at least as well? I can tell you this: You will not find a Ruger #1 at any benchrest match Why are under lever spring air rifles more accurate than 'break barrel guns?" Simply the fact that the barrel and action are "One!" Like you indicated..............there is "deer accuracy" and then there is Accurate! You advantage, if you can call it that, is you can get more barrel length with an overall shorter rifle or at least the same size as a bolt gun with a short barrel Richard
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Post by Dave W on Jan 20, 2011 17:13:40 GMT -5
Zen(Panhandle) has a break open and a MLII in .45, should be a good source for a comparison.
How did your deer season go?
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Post by pposey on Jan 20, 2011 17:24:13 GMT -5
The Encore I have is shooting as good as my pacnor if I do what it likes load wise
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Post by dwhunter on Jan 20, 2011 17:52:47 GMT -5
I'm going to say the bolt gun hands down because of everything Richard mentioned but more so the much faster lock time.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2011 18:37:15 GMT -5
Zen(Panhandle) has a break open and a MLII in .45, should be a good source for a comparison. How did your deer season go? The difference is in the trigger. My H&R SMI .45 shoots plenty good but my Savage Pac-Nor shoots a little better. The Rifle Basix trigger in the Savage vs the H&R trigger is no contest. I've done some honing and spring work on the H&R but it still breaks at 3 1/2# with a long lock time..The Rifle Basix breaks crisp and quick at 2#. All that said I really like how the SMI conversion handles and you can't get any easier to clean and maintain. Both barrels I believe are pretty equal in quality, smooth as could be with no tooling marks to be seen. Both rifles are real close in overall weight also. If you're looking for those bug hole groups I'd stick with the Pac-Nor but if hunting is you're game pick whichever suits your fancy. You can't go wrong with either. Zen
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Post by Dave W on Jan 20, 2011 19:22:45 GMT -5
Zen(Panhandle) has a break open and a MLII in .45, should be a good source for a comparison. How did your deer season go? Great season, killed a 20" inside 8pt, 5 1/2 year old that scored just under 140" gross. Thanks for asking. I guess I was looking for answers I already knew, I have not been able to talk myself into going away from the savage as hard as I have tried. Congrats Mark, nice to see you post again.
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Post by northny on Jan 20, 2011 21:56:53 GMT -5
Savage Shooter, why would you not go with a remington or other bolt action and add a pacnor, and avoid the cost of buying a last run Savage ML II? My thinking right now is to start with a Rem 700ML (I can pick one up right now for $125 -- rust in barrel)....and I can finish the job for about what you would have to pay for the ML II)
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Post by darrel on Jan 20, 2011 22:31:32 GMT -5
I think the potential for accuracy would be better with a bolt action gun. However, since I had the Encore 45-70 converted to smokeless the ML-11 has remained in the safe where it will remain till I dig out the original box to sell it. My guess is a 45 pacnor might be more accurate but the Encore is 3# lighter, shorter and for me works better for hunting.
If you shoot alot of paper the pacnor may be a better choice. Darrel
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Post by fishhawk on Jan 20, 2011 22:36:01 GMT -5
I agree with northny, The 700ML would be a cheaper place to start with equal results.
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Post by tar12 on Jan 20, 2011 23:00:14 GMT -5
Bolt gun hands down.H&Rs are a pain to fine tune the trigger.Not to mention the trigger extension need and a higher than necessary sight plane needed to clear said trigger.I know of one guy who makes his living selling over sized hinge pins for the Encore. My buddy and I discovered this guy as his NIB Encore has some slop problems.For these reasons alone the bolt gun is a win win regardless if you punch paper or hide. There will be more initial costs to a bolt gun build but IMO it out weighs the problems associated with the break action guns and they look so much more sexier! ;D
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Post by Dave W on Jan 20, 2011 23:18:55 GMT -5
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Post by mdgroundhogger on Jan 20, 2011 23:49:33 GMT -5
I have not had any issues with my Encore's accuracy (223, 7-08, and 7Mag). But since I bought my Savage ML II I've sold my Encore muzzleloader barrel!!!! ;D
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Post by johnp034 on Jan 21, 2011 2:48:39 GMT -5
For hunting I'd have to go with the break action. Just got my Ecore 45-70 conversion back from slufoot, can't wait to shoot it this weekend. It handles so well, is so light and will be a dream to carry in the field. As far as accuracy, I'm sure it will do just fine. The next one I might try is the CVA Apex with the Bergera 45-70 barrel. I think it would be a good candidate for smokeless.
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Post by joe21a on Jan 21, 2011 13:30:58 GMT -5
If I were buying a cartg rifle I want a bolt action, but once you add that breach plug I am not so sure one is that much better than the other. If you are looking for the smallest hole in paper then I think the big $ would win most times, the Savage is heaver with a custom target barrel and most likely a target stock. The Handi is cheap light and carries a factory barrel. You can buy 2 to 3 handi's for the price of one custom Savage. I guess your wallet has to make up your mind
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Post by Savage Shooter on Jan 21, 2011 15:28:27 GMT -5
Savage Shooter, why would you not go with a remington or other bolt action and add a pacnor, and avoid the cost of buying a last run Savage ML II? My thinking right now is to start with a Rem 700ML (I can pick one up right now for $125 -- rust in barrel)....and I can finish the job for about what you would have to pay for the ML II) Last shot I fired with Remington ML was when they first came out with the 209 conversion nipple, bout put both eyes out with primer fragments and hot dust. Besides all the prices I have seen on them currently are $350+.................
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Jan 21, 2011 17:02:06 GMT -5
I have a Savage and an Encore barrel being built by Bullberry barrel works. I love my Savage and I love the way my Encore fit's me..and shoots as well. The Bullberry is on a Pacnor barrel(dd speacial) as is the Savage. Since I have a couple encore's the choice was easy for me this time. (these werent available from Bullberry at the time) I have never noticed a fit problem with the Encore pin's in either of my guns. I know My Savage pacnor is capable of shooting WAYYY better than I am... And I am sure that my Encore wond dissapoint me either..But I will keep yall posted..Onlu 11 more weeks.... ::)In either case...I LOVE MY .45 way more than any .50 I have ever owned....Drop
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Post by johnp034 on Jan 22, 2011 5:34:05 GMT -5
I think the only way to tell would be to dial in each gun to the exact load that it prefers & shoots the best, have the same person shooting both guns, (unbiased of course) and I'll bet both the Savage & the Encore will shoot sub moa, and the difference would be negligable. If there was a difference at all, it would fit under ones little fingernail.
jm2c
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Post by Rifleman on Jan 22, 2011 7:26:41 GMT -5
Hey Mark good to see you again, thought you went into the "nations" and hid out with Ned Pepper or something. You know you gotta shoot a bolt gun. Sent you a PM
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