|
Post by jeremylong on Jan 29, 2011 0:37:06 GMT -5
Looks like your going to have to buy a new LED TV to get another box! I have the exact same box in the basement waiting for some long range tests. Well, long range to me but not to you. I was thinking more like 300. lol.
|
|
|
Post by deadeye on Jan 29, 2011 16:02:52 GMT -5
special thx to davew & savage shooter with help on changing/searching for a better choice of powders for the 325be.today was 2015 & h322 as singles 2015-61.0 gns=2192fps 62.3 gns=2243 64.0=2302 loaded a little tighter 65.0=2305 67.0=2343 pressure sign, updated 2/18/2011 h322 56.0=2150 58.0=2196 60.0=2271 61.3=2322 62.5=2364 63.7=2392 64.7=2414 65.7=2445 66.8=2487 67.8=2495%$#@#$%=pierced primer backed my charge down to 66.5 /3sht group@204yds approx 1.75'' w/r to l winds approx 10-12mph
|
|
|
Post by Savage Shooter on Jan 29, 2011 17:18:59 GMT -5
Now you can tune.............
|
|
|
Post by moto357 on Jan 29, 2011 18:07:01 GMT -5
good stuff!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2011 18:44:42 GMT -5
interesting and not bad groups...Bill
|
|
|
Post by Jon on Jan 29, 2011 18:48:24 GMT -5
Very good informative and thourgh posts. I wonder how they would work in a 50 saboted? If this has already been answered I'm sorry for asking again. Jon
|
|
|
Post by dave d. on Jan 29, 2011 20:10:55 GMT -5
:)jim great work. Looks like there is going to be some reallllly long range shooting in the future. Goodluck
|
|
|
Post by Dave W on Jan 30, 2011 0:48:21 GMT -5
The 325BE is certainly way more efficient than what I got with 300gr pills with H322. Guessing the temps were about 30*? Recoil pretty stiff I bet? Nice shooting and thanks for the effort you are putting in.
|
|
|
Post by deadeye on Jan 30, 2011 6:46:58 GMT -5
davew-temp was right@ 30deg's,recoil was getting stiffer but very managable w a firm grip & shoulder. it was interesting the felt recoil difference's between the 3 powders,the 2015 felt like a 10-15% stronger 60.0gn-n120/300gn b.o. load. the other 2 felt different but dont know how to properly descibe those. im to the conclusion the last(650yd failure was either to a overcarboned plug or the velocity drop @ 650yds =1182fps out of a muzz vel 2275. with the improved muzz vel of 2450fps @ 650yds = approx 1279fps w/still 1181 ft lbs of energy. the scope was working & tracking properly so its out of the equation.
|
|
|
Post by deadeye on Feb 2, 2011 21:04:52 GMT -5
to keep everyone up to speed ;D,looks like we(advice from my pm team) are going to go to slower powders=reason= i'm burning savage vents from .031 to .034 somewhere less than 12 shots w h322,a real concern. my groups are going from horizontal > then verticle on powder adjustments. the vents are burning out so fast & we believe its impossible to post great long range groups or results @ this time consistently. next up on deck is benchmark,imr4895 & varget to touch a spectrum of slower burning rates that might possibly get us there. make no mistake about this bullet & its high potential. just have not matched the perfect combo for the pac .45 sabotless 325be yet. **edge if you are reading this if you would give pressure estimates on the above 3 powders @ 70.0gn's** tia
|
|
|
Post by deadeye on Feb 5, 2011 14:19:34 GMT -5
fyi-these were all 300gn xtp's to save a little$$$ ;D benchmark-60.3gns=2322fps 63.5gns=2439fps
n110/varget 6.0/57=2165fps 7.0/59=2308fps 8.0/60=2353fps 8.0/61=2367fps 9.0/61=2440fps *no pressure signs on all*
this was a short test with the goal to get approx 2400fps with powders approx 70gn range safely
|
|
|
Post by Savage Shooter on Feb 5, 2011 15:37:25 GMT -5
fyi-these were all 300gn xtp's to save a little$$$ ;D benchmark-60.3gns=2322fps 63.5gns=2439fps n110/varget 6.0/57=2165fps 7.0/59=2308fps 8.0/60=2353fps 8.0/61=2367fps 9.0/61=2440fps *no pressure signs on all* this was a short test with the goal to get approx 2400fps with powders approx 70gn range safely very good news, looks like the varget duplex is right on speed wise, this should make vents last much longer..........can build a super accurate load now I bet.
|
|
|
Post by deadeye on Feb 5, 2011 18:37:29 GMT -5
exempt the 6.0 & 9.0 n110/vargets,the rest was in one big bughole. it was very hard to get readings as a snow storm was coming through w/ a tarp overhead. noticed the jump in speed w/booster mainly
|
|
|
Post by Dave W on Feb 5, 2011 18:41:50 GMT -5
I noticed that larger velocity jump when going from 8/61 to 9/61 also. Stings or single shot readings?
|
|
|
Post by deadeye on Feb 6, 2011 9:05:01 GMT -5
davew-those were singles,lucky to get those with the natural light defusion, i shot the 5.0/55 4 times no reading,recoil was very light & bullet marked very high(approx 9'') so i proceeded & got readings & bullet was heading down as speeds were going up.shot the 9.0/61 also 4 times w/no reading.finally had to pull chrono out from underneath the overhead tarp to get that reading which i was very interested in what the 9.0 would do,as i expected a larger jump, as far as accuracy-dont know, the 9.0/61's approx 1.25''/3shot
|
|
|
Post by deadeye on Feb 6, 2011 16:35:25 GMT -5
i would like to thank savage shooter,davew,sw & edge for helping me find this load,all contributed for one heck of a day here!. today was just trying to find the sweet spot for the n110/varget load & i believe it will be it,so far out to only 204yds on the bench. n110/varget 8.0/60=2330,2312 fps 9.0/60=2352L,2385,2376fps L=loose loaded 10.0/60=2426T,2415 fps T=tight loaded 9.0/61.0=2462T,2417,2414 3 shot gr@ 100=.5approx then to 204yds for a approx shot group of .5 load adjustments before settling on the 9.0/61.0 then 2 scope adjustments for future longer range work to be continued at a later date
|
|
|
Post by Dave W on Feb 6, 2011 17:24:09 GMT -5
Actually we should be thanking you for developing this at considerable expense. Glad you stuck with it and you got it in your velocity window as well.
|
|
|
Post by Savage Shooter on Feb 6, 2011 17:34:15 GMT -5
Actually we should be thanking you for developing this at considerable expense. Glad you stuck with it and you got it in your velocity window as well. Dave is right, you have been doing all the hard part, we just been thinking. ;D Can't wait to see some of them a looooong range now, bet they get you what you want.
|
|
|
Post by Dave W on Feb 6, 2011 17:39:27 GMT -5
Good call on the Varget as a primary Mark.
|
|
|
Post by Savage Shooter on Feb 6, 2011 17:52:07 GMT -5
Good call on the Varget as a primary Mark. Thanks but this was always one of RB's goto powders for big heavies, we both shot this some looking for a long range load of this type with the .50. Problem was to get BC up enough to help with drifts the bullets were in the 4 - 500 gr class and to say recoil was stiff is and understatement and killed scopes left and right. This is a very interesting way to get to 500yds. This type load is probably the best long range load anyone has attempted with smokeless ML. Kinda in line with what Bad Bull is selling, but a fraction of the cost. Now if Parker will make a bullet in this BC range for the .40 the sky will really open up. Say a 275gr .400 bullet for the .40. Think SW has been inquiring about this very idea. Mark Update: just dug up some old load data and notice that recoil with the .50 in higher BC bullets we were testing back then was in the 50-55 ft/lb range (real snotknockers/eyewaterers) make offspring born nekk'd......not worth it, etc. This load with the 325gr at 2400 should be in the 30-33 ft/lb range,,,,,,,,(not quite as much snot & a bit less watery)...but offspring still likely to be born nekk'd......for some of you older guys this should not be a deterrent.
|
|
|
Post by deadeye on Feb 7, 2011 16:16:13 GMT -5
wow,a approx 40% reduction on recoils from the early daze ;D,,it is amazing on tweaking just- the right move,i contemplated over a bowl of potatoe soup whether i was going to go 11.0 boost or drive up the main,originally i was going to get agressive w/main by 2.0gns which im sure was ok but decided to go just 1gn to keep it uniform for better observation data wise. it is quite possible to milk some more fps & accuracy wise out( not target fine crosshair used) of this set-up but im happy for now & will get back out long probably go for the juglar @ 650yds just to see if stability is there unlike the last report/remember w/h4198 load i was getting my way out to 525yds but fig'd temps/pressures would play a role later. there were no obvious pressure sign's with this 9.0/61.0 load w/325be.
|
|
|
Post by TGinPA on Feb 11, 2011 15:35:10 GMT -5
NOTE: THIS TRACE HAS BEEN DETERMINED TO BE INCORRECT Due to problems with cable connection between the barrel pressure sensor and hardware module, the cable and connectors were replaced yesterday. The test of this load repeated. Please see the corrected trace posted on 2-17 further down the thread. Pressure Trace110-varget duplex & 325be Gage and Module Manufacturer = RSI USB model Trigger Sensitivity = 3, Strain Gage Voltage =4.9 Gage Factor =2.1 PSI Correction Factor: 0 Barrel Temp = 64 degrees F. measured at the sensor (IR). Rifle Stand: Caldwell Lead Sled Altitude: 450 ft Chronograph: Chrony Alpha Model Barrel Type: PacNor .45 Cal Muzzleloader Barrel OD = 1.06 in Barrel ID = .454 Breech Plug:Savage Std. (screw-in ventliner) ventliner orifice .031 in. Sensor dist fm BP=.596 in. Bullet Diam.= .448 in. resized. Bullet Type = 325be Bullet weight = 325 gr. ,knurled. Sabot: none wad: fiber .03x.462 in. Bullets kindly provided by Deadeye Powder: All Traces: N110/Varget 9/61 gr. Primer :Fed 209 Shot fm clean barrel, 1 patch Bore Shine, 1 dry patch T1: Resized too much, not knurled enough. Required only light pressure to seat and probably accounts for the lower peak pressure seen with that shot. T2 & T3: Both required moderate (~50-60 lbs) seating pressure.
|
|
|
Post by deadeye on Feb 11, 2011 16:48:02 GMT -5
thx tginpa for adding this trace,i almost no nothing about traces but t3 w high the high spike concerns me a little, i dont know if this would alter these but i was shooting dirty or did this bullet slide some before obturating?. i will wait & read the post from the more knowledgable here on this as im getting educated
|
|
|
Post by Savage Shooter on Feb 11, 2011 20:02:55 GMT -5
I don't know about this either, but as deadeye says it concerns me.
|
|
|
Post by ET on Feb 11, 2011 20:39:11 GMT -5
I don’t like what I see at all and a big red flag on T3. Also over time and traces being generated with different parameters/variables a possible pattern seems to be slowly developing with duplexes.
So here are some questions popping up for me.
What happens when the powder burn rate between two powders used has a bigger difference? Specifically the transition point of burn carry over.
How is the pressure trace affected when amount of ignition powder say ratio to main charge is altered? Is there a need to alter this ratio as bullet weight varies?
There is no set rule yet to actual ignition powder to be used and if pressure builds faster in a 45 would it be feasible to say use 4198 in front of say Varget?
Ideally a reasonably quick rise to peak pressure with a uniform descending slope would be IMO a good trace. Seeing the descending slope extending somewhat past the bullet exit point would indicate constant pressure behind the bullet helping to maintain the best velocity possible.
Just my thoughts being expressed here.
Ed
|
|
|
Post by Savage Shooter on Feb 11, 2011 22:44:13 GMT -5
This is what a duplex trace should look like. This is one of RB's that was posted back in the beginning for the .50 duplex N110/H322 @ 11/64. ET you may be right, I am not sure we are looking at the best combos for duplexing in the .45 yet. I have been having the same thoughts about maybe the H4198 needs to be the booster. With the .50 the best boosters were the best powders also used as single,,,,,,,,,H4198 has been proven ignitably dependable in the .45 so just may be that it would make the best booster. Now for main/primary powders. In the .50 the best primary proved to be a powder that was temp sensitive and might misfire in cold weather. What powder would that be in the .45? Would it be H4198/Benchmark? I aint got a clue but something is amiss. OR H4198 and even a slower yet powder. Looks like we need a powder guru. The duplex traces in the .45 have bothered me from day one. Here is the kind of trace we need to find. i8.photobucket.com/albums/a15/dougva34/11-N110X2064-H322.gif
|
|
|
Post by ET on Feb 11, 2011 23:33:46 GMT -5
Savage Shooter
That link to a Trace is exactly what I was trying to describe. Thanks for posting that.
No humps and bumps or secondary spikes. The closer you get to producing a consistent ideal trace outline the better the over results should be or so the theory goes IMO.
This may not be as critical sabotless but with a sabot being plastic and more vulnerable to abuse of changing pressures of a sharp nature could make a difference in overall performance and safety.
A powder guru would be nice right about now. Here RB is sorely missed.
Ed
|
|
|
Post by deadeye on Feb 12, 2011 0:18:39 GMT -5
fyi-looking back on my notes there was an instance w/110/322 i noted a primer buldge @ 5.0/49.0@2204fps ,however i was able to take h322 as a single to 67.8 @ 2495 finally piercing a primer,maybe booster need down some or different booster as you post,just putting this info out there for evaluation. would it be any value to have a trace of 53.0 h4198@2275fps as a single in which i did not suspicion pressure problem until i reached 55.5gns. i also looked at one of tginpa's trace & it noted a 9kpsi change w/wad. as a side note im'betting i am putting a 100lbs of seating pressure to make sure its seated //maybe compressed?
|
|
|
Post by Dave W on Feb 12, 2011 10:56:17 GMT -5
There is a large discrepancy in velocity between TG and D's guns with this combo of nearly 200fps. I would think the load is doing something completely different in one gun vs the other? Impossible to tell since Deadeye does not have trace equipment and TG could not duplicate D's velocity.
Think it was RB at one time that mentioned a powder like 4198 as booster but I also think he was referring to duplexing in the 40 cal. Might have merits in this situation since there is a large difference in burn rates between the primary and booster powders and the multiple spikes make it appear that there is a drop in pressure after the booster burns. At least to this novice.
|
|
|
Post by ET on Feb 12, 2011 12:35:13 GMT -5
Dave W
Noted the difference in velocities also between Deadeye and TGinPA but the 1-piece of info I don’t see or overlooked is the distance from the muzzle when they took their velocity readings. Was it the same or is there a difference of distance used for measurement?
For what it’s worth what you see in the Traces provided by TGinPA I too seem to feel there is something happening with the burn carry over transition between these two powders. Like you and many others here I’m starting out at the bottom for learning about Pressure Traces and over time along with more pressure traces I hope to gain more experience and confidence with a more correct interpretation from visual recognization. The hard part is learning the plausible causes for what is seen as an abnormal response from the Trace outline. In other words what is causing certain reactions to the Trace line response.
Ed
|
|