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Post by deadeye on Jan 16, 2011 13:56:10 GMT -5
they are not on their web yet but available by phone,if you like i could try to get a better photo & post
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 16, 2011 14:23:22 GMT -5
Excellent photo
Is that knurling, are shooting sabotless?
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 16, 2011 17:54:52 GMT -5
re-read post thicker jackets, thats good
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Post by deadeye on Jan 16, 2011 18:09:02 GMT -5
yes on knurling & sabotless
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Post by deadeye on Jan 16, 2011 18:12:01 GMT -5
yes on knurling & sabotless/this is one helluva-bullet for mz!raising the bar to get into higher bc's much like rifle bullets
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 16, 2011 20:13:13 GMT -5
deadeye,
If someone loads a .45 with 70grs of H4198.....Your rite, he will do it only once
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Post by deadeye on Jan 17, 2011 0:01:31 GMT -5
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Post by lakeplainshunter on Jan 17, 2011 5:17:03 GMT -5
What twist rate and minimum muzzle velocity do you need to be able to shoot this bullet?
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Post by deadeye on Jan 17, 2011 9:43:52 GMT -5
What twist rate and minimum muzzle velocity do you need to be able to shoot this bullet? i really dont know these answers but im shooting 1/22 twist & groups with other powders at lower speeds approx 2000-2100fps showed promise at least on the 100yd line,i did not take those any longer. just ran my tioga ballistic program for optimum twist for this length & diameter,it came out 1/23 twist.
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Post by edge on Jan 17, 2011 10:05:40 GMT -5
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Post by deadeye on Jan 23, 2011 17:30:40 GMT -5
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 24, 2011 11:02:04 GMT -5
Deadeye,
What a great looking stock, what make is it. If its custom did you do the work yourself
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Post by deadeye on Jan 24, 2011 11:35:35 GMT -5
Deadeye, What a great looking stock, what make is it. If its custom did you do the work yourself i bought this off of boardmember topusmc here then converted to a pac .45 w/26''. maybe if he reads this he will chime in & if he does-hi-george! i wish it was in color to get the real effect. this one is nicknamed "woody"
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Post by Savage Shooter on Jan 24, 2011 12:14:03 GMT -5
Have you tried any slower burn rate powder, I would lean to more charge volume than this being optimum for this bullet in a .45.
I think results would improve if you got charge weight up to 50 - 52 grains total. This would reduce pressures some. I think you may see pressure signs come back in warmer weather with 4198 with this bullet.
H322 or even slower yet Benchmark may work better to get up there with same or more fps but less pressure.
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Post by deadeye on Jan 24, 2011 17:40:48 GMT -5
Have you tried any slower burn rate powder, I would lean to more charge volume than this being optimum for this bullet in a .45. I think results would improve if you got charge weight up to 50 - 52 grains total. This would reduce pressures some. I think you may see pressure signs come back in warmer weather with 4198 with this bullet. H322 or even slower yet Benchmark or H335 may work better to get up there with same or more fps but less pressure. ss- the higher temp/h4198 is & has been on my mind however our temps during my testing have been between 15-39 deg during my testing,i did try some slower powders but maybe not enough booster to get results. i will list a few here for your & others observance & i'm all ears to any suggestion's as i'm definetly not a pressure expert. h4198- 44.5gns =1978fps 55.5gns=2313>buldged primer at base right under rim 53.0gns =2300fps 4759/ 3031 5.0/43.0=1841fps 5.0/46.0=1947fps 5.0/49.0=2021fps 5.0/52.0=1621??#$%^&%$# 5.0/52.0=2114??#$%^&%$# 5.0/55.0=2128fps n110/h322 5.0/46.0=2069 fps 5.0/49.0=2204 buldging primer 4759/2015 5.0/45.0=1984fps 5.0/48.0=2076fps 5.0/51.0=2123fps 5.0/53.0=2177fps 5.0/56.0=2204fps n110/2015 5.0/57.0=2306fps 5.0/57.0=2287fps-cci primer to check to if it would bulge-yes
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Post by Savage Shooter on Jan 24, 2011 19:34:35 GMT -5
Have you tried any slower burn rate powder, I would lean to more charge volume than this being optimum for this bullet in a .45. I think results would improve if you got charge weight up to 50 - 52 grains total. This would reduce pressures some. I think you may see pressure signs come back in warmer weather with 4198 with this bullet. H322 or even slower yet Benchmark or H335 may work better to get up there with same or more fps but less pressure. ss- the higher temp/h4198 is & has been on my mind however our temps during my testing have been between 15-39 deg during my testing,i did try some slower powders but maybe not enough booster to get results. i will list a few here for your & others observance & i'm all ears to any suggestion's as i'm definetly not a pressure expert. h4198- 44.5gns =1978fps 55.5gns=2313>buldged primer at base right under rim 53.0gns =2300fps 4759/ 3031 5.0/43.0=1841fps 5.0/49.0=2021fps 5.0/55.0=2128fps n110/h322 5.0/46.0=2069 fps 5.0/49.0=2204 buldging primer 4759/2015 5.0/45.0=1984fps 5.0/53.0=2177fps 5.0/56.0=2204fps n110/2015 5.0/57.0=2306fps If you prefer single powder (I would in .45 with that heavy of bullet) I would try the H322 as a single and see if I could get close to 2300, should get close in the 57gr range, work up to it. Another I would try would be Benchmark, should get a touch more speed than H322 but with more charge probably will get up around 60gr to break 2300. 2015 will get this bullet going too, as you have noted with the duplex, the load you posted above is getting there but 2015 will shoot as a single with this much bullet just fine too. With any of the 3 powders mentioned you should be able to start at 50gr and work up with chrono. I believe that to develop a duplex with this much bullet in a .45 you will have to scrap conventional thinking and known duplexes and go to a much slower yet main powder. A duplex could probably be built around H4895 but that is new ground. You are in uncharted water so proceed careful. RB shot some big heavies in the .50 but I have not seen any one this heavy yet with the .45.
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Post by Savage Shooter on Jan 24, 2011 19:58:14 GMT -5
Another tool I always look back to is Hogdons Reloading manual online and compare my thoughts to what manual says for cartridge loads.
I would compare what you are trying to accomplish to a .458 win mag.
Look thru the bullet weights they list and what powders best suit speed keeping pressures down........you can always boost a bit later if needed to tune (or obturate).
You can work these higher volume loads up at a bit more increments, with these kind of powder I make 2-3 grain changes on the low end of load and but back to 1-2 grs if I feel I am close.
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Post by deadeye on Jan 24, 2011 20:56:52 GMT -5
savage shooter- i did pretty much as you decribed, the .458win mag call for a starting load 2015-70.0 max- 75.0,,h4198-63.0 max 68.0,,3031-71.0-max 76.0. hodgdon is similar to the barnes manual. i also took a look @ ruger #1-45-70 & .450marlin,they were more similar to my loads. edge gave a pressure estimate of approx 53,000psi on the 55.5 h4198 load.i definetly prefer a single also, i did run a single of 2015@60.0 but did not proceed cause i wanted to get to the field for some deflection testing,i probably gave up too soon on straight 2015 & h322 loads. the 2015 loads while low on velocity from 2000-2150 went in one big bughole until approx 2177>then a straight vertical line(bullet impact) down. i thought that was a great sign. i seemed like whenever i was approaching 2250fps pressure was starting to show up. i am using a recessed plug & let the carbon build-up in the flame channel just under the primer because accuracy was working. i'll change it out later to see if a drilled out plug & or a non-recessed plug will help with my set-up. keep the idea's coming! i need all the help i can get.
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Post by Savage Shooter on Jan 24, 2011 21:14:04 GMT -5
savage shooter- i did pretty much as you decribed, the .458win mag call for a starting load 2015-70.0 max- 75.0,,h4198-63.0 max 68.0,,3031-71.0-max 76.0. hodgdon is similar to the barnes manual. i also took a look @ ruger #1-45-70 & .450marlin,they were more similar to my loads. edge gave a pressure estimate of approx 53,000psi on the 55.5 h4198 load.i definetly prefer a single also, i did run a single of 2015@60.0 but did not proceed cause i wanted to get to the field for some deflection testing,i probably gave up too soon on straight 2015 & h322 loads. the 2015 loads while low on velocity from 2000-2150 went in one big bughole until approx 2177>then a straight vertical line(bullet impact) down. i thought that was a great sign. i seemed like whenever i was approaching 2250fps pressure was starting to show up. i am using a recessed plug & let the carbon build-up in the flame channel just under the primer because accuracy was working. i'll change it out later to see if a drilled out plug & or a non-recessed plug will help with my set-up. keep the idea's coming! i need all the help i can get. You may have to mimic the pressure rise the engraving of the bullet to rifling that a cartridge gun delivers to get where you want with sabotless bullet this heavy. Now this is where I think a reducing main powder and replace with N110 can be very helpful. On heavy bullets in the past I have done this if the slower powder just would not get to speed on its own. On high volume charges i.e I did this by backing down from where I quit as a single about 15 grains and replace with about 5 grs of booster. Then keeping main powder the same I would start adding booster at 1gr increments. If this still does not get there then I would go back to the 5gr booster and add then add 5 back to the main powder and start over adding booster at 1gr increment again. Hope I have not confused. Method to the madness. I forget sometimes to track speed increase exponentially when working up loads too. Especially dealing with a duplex. i.e. In general if a load is gaining 50fps per grain and then notice a couple grain increase does not give expected velocity rise you are about at the speed limit of that powder in your barrel length. At this point all your doing is raising pressure not speed. Now I am confused.
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Post by moto357 on Jan 24, 2011 22:33:26 GMT -5
you mentioned the use of H4895.. i have limited notes from this powder. reason for this is i was using the hornady 325FTX and had trouble finding loads that would get it to obturate properly. using a slow powder it seemed to want a good kick..
used as a single, 80gr of H4895 got me to about 2525fps maxed out my duplex with 15gr 5744 and 65gr H4895 for 2510fps
these loads were used in MY rifle and worked up without signs of pressure on the primers
i plan on going back to this bullet when im done building the remington 45 but with H322 as a single and seeing what i can get worked up. for this reason i've been watching your posts/discussion on this bullet closely
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Post by deadeye on Jan 25, 2011 9:23:17 GMT -5
savage shooter- i corrected & added other data which i should have from the start,it might have appeared a 6.0gn jump which did not happen & just occurred to me would be a very bad example if it had. also note the breakdown on the 3031 ??@#$%^&%$#@ loads,im confident the chrono was right as i did not feel the usual recoil,i no "what recoil" ;D ;D
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Post by edge on Jan 25, 2011 9:41:26 GMT -5
I would caution about using a reloading manual where the load is not compressed!
What might be a Cowboy load in a 458 Lott may be a high pressure load in a 45-70!
The airspace in a NON-Compressed load is a BIG part of the calculation in determining the pressure.
edge.
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Post by Savage Shooter on Jan 25, 2011 9:51:12 GMT -5
savage shooter- i corrected & added other data which i should have from the start,it might have appeared a 6.0gn jump which did not happen & just occurred to me would be a very bad example if it had. also note the breakdown on the 3031 ??@#$%^&%$#@ loads,im confident the chrono was right as i did not feel the usual recoil,i no "what recoil" ;D ;D A load that shows speed disparity like the 4759/3031 from shot to shot can not be but one of 2 things, sabot letting go causing sudden pressure loss which indicates (over-pressure) OR not enough pressure to sustain consistent continuous burn (under-pressure). With the speeds indicated from the similar loads I would first suspect over pressure with 3031 using duplex with heavy bullet, I always considered its burn rate very close to N120, 4198, maybe a tad slower. I would think 3031 would work best for this bullet as single powder load in the 55-60 gr class. For duplexing this heavy bullet in a .45 I think you will have slow on down some with the main charge. Your on the right track to building a real long range load. I am guessing on the pressures of this load a little experimenting up and down will give you the right answer, again be careful this heavy bullet can make pressure real quick when you get in the right load and burn rate area.
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Post by Savage Shooter on Jan 25, 2011 14:05:27 GMT -5
I had mentioned looking thru the .458 win mag loads in an earlier post and as Edge has pointed out you have to look at "compressed" loads to get any useful grasp on pressures. I had failed to mention that in my posting above, my bad.
I had beat around the bush on upper end loads guiding to info, what I wanted you to recognize is as Edge shows on another thread this load of:
41gr 4198 with 325gr bullet should be around 42,500 psi and has you have tested will not make 1950fps.
Now, compare to upper end 458 load which is a "compressed load" in the manual also.
80gr H322 with 350gr bullet @ 2589fps = 49,400CUP which makes it a 57 to 60K PSI load.
How strong is "YOUR" barrel and action. On a savage action and with a pac nor barrel designed originally as a .458 barrel it should TAKE it.
What pressures should your barrel be rated for? If unknown ask the maker.
Now I have shot some of the heavies in the .50 savage like this using other .50 cal manual loads, yes "compressed" and they shot fine,,,, just recoil was to rich for my blood, some would make your grandchildren be born nekk'd. Pronounced snotknocker.
IF you go down this road on high BC long range bullets and are looking "to be all you can be" there is a way. You need to KNOW yours and your guns strength! How much performance can you & your gun (scope / mounts) TAKE?
I was just wanting to point out that in the loads listed by deadeye way back in this thread that he can get more, but be careful.
IMO the pressures listed as compressed in reloading manuals should be slightly less in the ML due to not having to engrave rifling to the bullet.
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Post by jeremylong on Jan 25, 2011 16:04:34 GMT -5
"80gr H322 with 350gr bullet @ 2589fps = 49,400CUP which makes it a 57 to 60K PSI load."
That is going to be painful without a brake!
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Post by deadeye on Jan 25, 2011 17:09:29 GMT -5
ss,edge & all, i totally agree as there comes a time you work up in .5gn or less if your sensing getting close & that time is for me. i want anyone reading this to understand i now know i dont really need 2400fps w/325 be to achieve my goal,thats why i pulled off the short benches to the field(longer ranges) for stability at the speeds im getting to see if i was going to abort this bullet. i had heard you needed such & such speed to stabilze this projectile which in my pac/case is simply not true so far. while in the long field's with average winds & 1 outing @ 525yds in horrible mz long condition(17-27mph) i was very surprised to see this bullet performing this well,& collected an average of deflections@ several different distance's & wind hold's just to make sure i the shooter was doing my job also & record those measurements.//where to go from here-#1- sometime later approx- 50deg's to see if the 53.0 h4198 load's pressure starts to rise,#2-go back to straight-2015 & h322 for some results. i have tightened the bullet up a little by knurling & now i think the duplex may not be necessary at all(had only 1 bullet keyhole & it was just too loose-called)#3-if time allows sometime just push this puppy in the 600-750yd range for fun. *the recoil @ 2300fps is not bad at all & i think it is less than the n120/60.0/b.o. load.* i hope someone get's some beneficial info here as i have. i have found my new bullet.
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Post by Jon on Jan 25, 2011 17:29:22 GMT -5
Deadeye. I for one am following this closely. At least close enough to want to find out where to buy 50 of same to try at a future date. Thank you for all your work. Jon
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Post by Dave W on Jan 25, 2011 17:38:53 GMT -5
ss,edge & all, i totally agree as there comes a time you work up in .5gn or less if your sensing getting close & that time is for me. i want anyone reading this to understand i now know i dont really need 2400fps w/325 be to achieve my goal,thats why i pulled off the short benches to the field(longer ranges) for stability at the speeds im getting to see if i was going to abort this bullet. i had heard you needed such & such speed to stabilze this projectile which in my pac/case is simply not true so far. while in the long field's with average winds & 1 outing @ 525yds in horrible mz long condition(17-27mph) i was very surprised to see this bullet performing this well,& collected an average of deflections@ several different distance's & wind hold's just to make sure i the shooter was doing my job also & record those measurements.//where to go from here-#1- sometime later approx- 50deg's to see if the 53.0 h4198 load's pressure starts to rise,#2-go back to straight-2015 & h322 for some results. i have tightened the bullet up a little by knurling & now i think the duplex may not be necessary at all(had only 1 bullet keyhole & it was just too loose-called)#3-if time allows sometime just push this puppy in the 600-750yd range for fun. *the recoil @ 2300fps is not bad at all & i think it is less than the n120/60.0/b.o. load.* i hope someone get's some beneficial info here as i have. i have found my new bullet.Alright, you twisted my arm, I'll take those 275's off your hands for 50 cents apiece. ;D
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Post by deadeye on Jan 25, 2011 21:36:30 GMT -5
davew found my new bullet./davew-think that might have been intentional?,i hope that is eating on you like those 325's are on my wallet ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D jon-you are quite welcome-this a hobby of mine for years so its my pleasure also.
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Post by deadeye on Jan 28, 2011 21:57:23 GMT -5
1/28/11 update. this evening i got the wind directly behind me so it would be a limited factor & the box lasered @ 650yds,dialed up 26moa & sent 2,great start 2-shot(2.5'') approx 20''low,shot #3 w/same hold i did not find til i got home approx 20''to the right,there went that starting awesome group . adjust 1 mil-dot hold for remaining 3shot just enough time to get those off because of daylight fading fast. wind had calmed, 2-shot group approx 25'' & shot #3 was not on the box. after 60shots the first failure with this load & bullet. dont know the reason yet but suspect -overfouled plug-vent ok,blown scope-really dont think so,need to clean bore-not cleaned for a 60 count. could be the bullet losing stability however no yawing/keyholing etc- noticed on the box. t-morrow will resume back at 200yd bench to start sorting things out after drilling carbon(breechplug) & a clean bore which has been done & waiting for am. just to show the bad & things dont alway go my way,have to excuse the prior markings as i did not have time to clear the other the first 2 the 2 with the long line marking,3 off the box
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