Not trying to loose any goats here but...

[DBinNY]

Here are some bullets that I have actually recovered from deer over the past few years. They include deer shot with the .50 caliber Savage and I finally recovered a 195 BX this year shot from my .45 Pac Nor. The .452 250 gr SST was shot with 67 gr of R7 and all of the others were shot with 63 gr of R7. I've mostly been using H4198 in the .45 but just decided to use R7 this season just for the heck of it. All shots were less than 100 yards.

From left to right: The first bullet is the .458 300 gr Barnes Original that retained 282 gr (94%) of its original weight. This deer was quartering on. The bullet entered just in front of the nearside shoulder, through the chest and came to rest just under the skin low on the off side. No major bones were hit. DRT.

The second bullet is the .452 300 gr Hornady XTP. Retained weight was 255 gr (85%). This deer was slightly quartering on. Smacked the nearside shoulder and came to rest just under the skin on the opposite side in the rib cage. This deer ran about 50 yards.

Bullet number three is the .452 250 gr Hornady SST that retained only 114 gr (46%) of its original weight. This was a straight on shot that entered the neck and shattered about 5 inches of the spinal column. DRT.

Finally, bullet number four is the .40 195 BX which retained virtually all of its original weight. This deer was facing nearly straight on. It entered the neck, smashed a shoulder, entered the chest cavity, went back through the diaphragm, exited the flank, entered the hind quarter, missed the bones in the hind and ended up about 1 inch short of the end of the rump. This deer just flopped around briefly without getting anyplace.

Some observations: Things were pretty consistent with what other board members have reported on these bullets in the past. I knew the BO was a tough bullet but was a little surprised that it did not expand more. The deer collapsed in a heap so why worry about it? The 250 gr SST once again showed that it is "lightly constructed" for these velocities. Performance and penetration of the 300 gr XTP was more classically what most would like to see. The awesome penetration of the 195 BX combined with a frontal profile that is very nearly the equal of the 300 gr XTP (look closely at the picture) pretty much speaks for itself. The 195 BX was also moving significantly faster.

[Rifleman]

Nice post! Recovered BO's are few and far between. I did not get a pic, but my buddy recovered a BO this year as well. It was a straight frontal shot and the bullet was recovered under the hide in the back ham. It was fully expanded. We did not weight it.

[Richard]

DBinNY...............Nice report. Which just goes to show that any of the bullets we shoot out of these ML's are going to kill deer. I do like the 195 Barnes the most. I would not hesitate to hunt Moose, Elk, black bear or any of the other antlered critters in North America. At most realistic hunting ranges, the 195 will not have slowed enough to matter.
I like a good "meat and potatoes" report! The proof is in the pudding. Just like groups..............don't tell me how good your gun shoots..............show me the proof! ;D
Richard

[Slufoot]

Great post DB!
Looks like I'm gonna have to break down and try some of those 195 grain Barnes bullets.

GOOD SHOOTING!
Slufoot

[chuck41]

Outstanding report. Really hard to recover a 195 BX. Apparently yours had to go pretty much the whole length of the deer to come to a stop. One really awesome performer along with the BO.

[wilmsmeyer]

DB,

All your deer are shot head on. Great for bullet performance tests.

Are you using deer caine? luring them in head on?
;D ;D ;D

[tar12]

Jan 1, 2011 16:56:01 GMT -5 wilmsmeyer said:

DB,

All your deer are shot head on. Great for bullet performance tests.

Are you using deer caine? luring them in head on?
;D ;D ;D

Wilms,
There have been reports of deer going missing from the petting zoo.... ;D ;D

[boman]

Outstanding post! I'm with Richard---hard facts are what counts and there's no better proof of bullet performance than a recovered bullet from an animal as opposed to ballistic gelatin.

Steve

[zakjak221]

Very helpful, Thanks!
This report is great cause its real results from the field.
Would like to know distances of shots though?
I like pass thru's & blood trails, but bullet weight retention is really great to have.

Mark

[smokeless77]

All shots were less than 100 yards.

[cuda]

Has anyone recovered a 300gr Remington yet? I would like to see one if anyone has one and what was its weight? The deer I shot at 168yds did not stop them went right on threw.

[spaniel]

Interesting.

I'm a little surprised on the BO, I don't think I'd want to shoot it. That deer was DRT but I'd like to see at least SOME expansion.

This also points out how difficult real comparisons are and why it can generate controversy. While the SST shed the most weight, I would argue it also took the roughest trajectory -- through 5 inches of solid bone. So I'm actually a little surprised it retained that much, and nonetheless it's a pretty mushroon and didn't separate (which I would have thought may happen).

If you want to test a bullet, frontal is about the only way to try and guarantee recovery. That's how I managed to recover a 325FTX, I can't imagine one would be recovered otherwise.

[tslc]

I think Barnes web site says the BO needs 1400 fps to open.

[Deleted]

I shot the bos one season along with several of my savage friends, I had good performance but three of them didnt, pencil holes in and out on everything they shot. I would no longer shoot it myself but to each his own....Bill

good report , I like the real deal

[DBinNY]

Wilms, you need to read spaniel's post. Bullet recoveries tend to come from the deer that are coming toward you ;D. I try to set up where deer want to come so it happens some times. Most of the time with broadside boiler room shots the bullet exits for me, even the 250 SST. I did whack one another one with the 250 SST right through the fat part of the scapula (bottom where it narrows down) and that bullet did not exit. I also came to the conclusion that it stopped somewhere before it got to the offside hide or rib cage. I seriously doubt that would have happened with any of the other 3 bullets. I did recover the animal in short order but he went most of 100 yards. I've also had double lungers that dropped in their tracks and others that went 100 yards with that bullet.

All of the other deer I've shot with the 195 BX have been broadside boiler room shots and have never recovered any of those bullets. The deer usually go less than 50 yards. I did have a heart shot that went a little further.

Tar, no petting zoos in the area but that would provide a good ballistic laboratory.

cuda, I haven't used the 300 gr Remington on deer but have shot a bunch of woodchucks with it. I'm guessing it would be similar to the 300 gr XTP from comparing the relative damage that bullet does to the same. I would not hesitate to use it on deer.

tslc, I can assure you that this BO was going way over 1400 fps but it did not hit anything bigger than a rib.

I've only shot 2 deer with the .40 200 gr SST and I did not recover either of those bullets.

[edge]

Great post and thanks for the pictures.

I'll add this to the bullet testing in the hints...can't ask for a better test medium

edge.

[tar12]

I have shot 3 of the 4 you listed.Never have recovered a 300 grn BO or a 195 BX. Do you know the fps of these loads?

[DBinNY]

Jan 1, 2011 23:16:23 GMT -5 tar12 said:

I have shot 3 of the 4 you listed.Never have recovered a 300 grn BO or a 195 BX. Do you know the fps of these loads?

The 300 gr BO was low to mid 2200s fps and the 195 BX was a frog hair under 2600 fps according to my Chrony with the 3 year old battery in it just before the season .

[boarhog]

So far, Littlepig and I, have shot only 3 deer with the 300 gr BO, and one with the 195 BX. The most damage was done with the 195 gr, and oddly, that deer also ran the farthest. Perhaps 50 yards. Only one deer was not hit in major bones (shoulder blade or leg ), and that was with the BO. It showed a larger-than-caliber entrance hole, and an almost 3" exit hole. I posted pictures under the "First Deer with Boyd's Thumbhole" thread. Looked like good expansion, even though only 1 rib was hit going in.
Boarhog

[svend]

Cuda, I have shot and killed 10 deer with the 300 gr. Rem in the last two years. Most have been high shoulder or head shots depending on the range. It seems like anytime I hit enough bone to stop the bullet it is in small pieces. This year I shot a doe quartering towards at about 100 yds. The shot went through the arm bone below the shoulder blade on it's way to the heart. There was a large hole in the heart but I could find nothing but small pieces of copper jacket and lead when I boned the opposite shoulder. These bullets have done a great job stopping deer but if you hit a hard bone at 2300 they will explode. That said I still prefer them to the BO because I experienced pencil hole pass throughs when I shot broadside through vitals. After reading some of the results posted about the 325 FTX I'm anxious to try them next year.

[jeff]

Great post, I will add my 2 cents, I've killed over 50 big game animals with hornady XTP including moose, bear, deer, elk and I recovered many of the bullets that weighed within 10 grains of the pic shown.
The BO original I started shooting in my 50 panor last year 2 seasons with it now and am looking to test new bullets this next year for the number one reason, they are hard almost impossible to get to expand. Ive shot elk, deer, and antelope and there is pencil holes in and out even on hi shoulder shots which I recommend with that bullet. I recovered one from the elk that never expanded, and have recovered numerous ones testing them in black dirt and wet phone books. I've had them separate from there jacket and mushroom the lead tip but I"ve yet to see a mushroomed BO. That ain't all bad but you be the judge, I'd prefer a little expansion.
Jeff~

[edge]

I have another point of view!

Why do you want expansion?
Because they look nice or for performance!

Keith style flat points are designed to not expand yet they cause massive trauma! Flat points don't need to expand because a flat point causes the tissue to move sideways at a high rate, faster then a mushroom shaped bullet.

Keith bullets painted only lose the color on the point as the tissue is expanded violently around the bullet and never touches the sides.

IMO

edge.

www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/methods.html#flat-nosed

[screwbolts]

Thank you Edge for posting the above this is how my Hardcast work, my LBT LFN has a .320 Meplat (Flat point/end), my BRP modified to 288 FN has a .268 meplat.

This is what I have tried to say but you have said it better than I.

That is a great link. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Ken

[wilmsmeyer]

Bottom line is that any of these bullets that hold together are going to get the job done. The hardcasts, coppers and the BO.

A 1/2" hole blasted by a solid bullet still causes hydraulic reactions to surrounding tissue. It also assures everything you intended to intersect (like lungs/heart/bones) are perforated. 2 leaky holes give better blood trails. Multiple shattered bones assure difficult travel for game.

Not sure that pencil holes are that bad.

Like DB said about the goats...not trying to unleash any here. The important thing to do with these bullets, like any bullet, is to shoot them very precisely and put them right where you want them every time.

[chuck41]

Jan 2, 2011 10:50:00 GMT -5 wilmsmeyer said:

Bottom line is that any of these bullets that hold together are going to get the job done. The hardcasts, coppers and the BO.

A 1/2" hole blasted by a solid bullet still causes hydraulic reactions to surrounding tissue. It also assures everything you intended to intersect (like lungs/heart/bones) are perforated. 2 leaky holes give better blood trails. Multiple shattered bones assure difficult travel for game.

Not sure that pencil holes are that bad.

Like DB said about the goats...not trying to unleash any here. The important thing to do with these bullets, like any bullet, is to shoot them very precisely and put them right where you want them every time.

Right on Wilms. At the velocity we shoot these things a smooth round river rock would probably work. A 200gr XTP at over 2000fps impact velocity will give an IMPACT hole nearly 3" in diameter and that leaky hole leaves a blood trail like a river. A Kieth style bullet would give two leaky holes about 1/4 that size bit still likely leave a similar blood trail. Neither would see a deer survive to tell the tale of just a reasonably good hit.

The Keith info is fabulous and tends to explain some of what many of us have seen with flat nosed bullets. At our speeds they are certainly spectacular killers. Maybe I should just pour the center of my XTPs with epoxy and double the number of holes I get.

[artjr338wm]

Feel free to correct me if any feel I am wrong, but does not any of the Barnes all copper bullets used in our Savages, especially those design specifically for use I'm MLs give us the best of both worlds in that they expand like a HP but penetrate like a Keith style flat nosed bullets.

As I see it the only draw back to Barnes all copper bullets for use on the Savage is getting them to shoot.

There is something about a 250grn TMZ or 245grn Spitfire going 2600+fps that leads me to believe it will QUICKLY kill ANYTHING it happens to pass through the vitals of matter what it must defeat prior.

[hubcap52]

I know you listed the load you used, but do you have any idea of what the muzzle or impact velocity was for your shots? that would make a difference in repeatability for those that try to duplicate your results. Congrats on your fine shooting and hunting skills.

[pposey]

BO could be used again,,,, asa bigggg flat point

[DBinNY]

hubcap52, my .50 shoots 300 gr bullets around the low to mid 2200 fps range with 63 gr of R7. I never had a chrony when I shot the 250SST load with 67 gr of R7 but had enough muzzle flash to suspect that it was not as efficient as I would like. When I found how accurate and consistent the 300 gr bullets were I abandon it. In the .45, the 63 gr R7, 195 BX load clocked just a shade under 2600 fps for me. All of these shots were under 100 yards so I suspect that velocity had not decreased much by the time the bullets hit the deer.

PPosey, you may be right!