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Post by Slufoot on Dec 21, 2010 20:24:30 GMT -5
I've been asked by several about my conversions so I thought it was time to share. This one I just finished for my dad for a Christmas present, he doesn't have a PC so ya'll better not tell. The barrel is a 45-70 that I got from another internet site. I had to fit it to this frame by taking .007" off the breechface it now locks up perfect. The frame is an SB1 large firing pin from a Versa-Pac that I bought used locally and the stock I robbed from my 30-06. I know my dad likes wood better than plastic and this gives me a good excuse with the wife to get a Handi-Grip stock set for the '06. The breechplug is from Savage and it uses the new Hex head design that allows a 3/8" socket to install and remove, much more user friendly than the old spanner type Savage plugs. The sharp edge of the crown has been lapped with a piece of brass and some Fine Clovers lapping compound, this lets you start sabots without shaving plastic. The ramrod thimble on this one is a little fancier than what I usually do because it's for dad, instead of the standard ring I usually do this one is longer and tapered kind of barrel shaped. The BIG difference on this one and the reason I called it Deluxe is because a made a forearm attachment stud that allows a full length ramrod! I handcut a dovetail into the bottom of the barrel and then made the stud with a hacksaw and files, this took me a very long time. Whenever I can save up enough to get a milling machine then I will be able to do more of these but until then I'll have to make the collapsable ramrods. The ramrod is made from a carbon arrow with a woodgrain finsh and I turned the brass loading jag to accept SST bullets, it will work just fine with regular pistol bullets also. The sling was made by a good friend of mine, he needed a horse carriage axle turned out and being as he's a great leather craftsman we traded out work, now you know where I got my handle from. The scope is an old steel tube Weaver K4-1 that I traded for years ago, I put it on an old T/C Thunderhawk and let dad use it and he said that was his favorite scope he had ever used, so that's why the old scope is on his new muzzleloader. I got to shoot it today for the first time and with just one range session I found a load that gave less than a 1.5" average for three 3-shot groups @ 100 yards. I used the 3.1cc Lee dipper & 5744 powder, smooth blue Harvester sabots, Hornady 200 gr XTP/HP bullets and Winchester 209 primers. This load averaged about 2050 fps and I've got it dead on at 100. Dad will now be ready to make meat with his new Christmas present!
GOOD SHOOTING! Slufoot
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2010 20:37:30 GMT -5
slufoot.. Very nice.... I like it....He's going to love it...I'm curious..What's the overall weight of your Handi with that 45-70 barrel? Zen
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Post by Slufoot on Dec 21, 2010 20:46:44 GMT -5
Thanks Zen, I don't know the actual weight but it's ALOT lighter than my Savage ML. It's also alot more compact and alot more enjoyable to carry while hunting. My 45-70 Handi conversion wears the synthetic stocks and it's even lighter than this one I made for dad,
Thanks again!
GOOD SHOOTING! Slufoot
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Post by machinist on Dec 21, 2010 22:19:34 GMT -5
I have a 450 marlin do you convert those?
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Post by tasaman on Dec 22, 2010 0:15:37 GMT -5
Well done slufoot. I like it.
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Post by Slufoot on Dec 22, 2010 4:51:32 GMT -5
Thanks tasaman.
Machinist, I'm assuming you have a Handi rifle in 450 Marlin if so then yes it would also be the same bore and twist as the 45-70 and should make a good candidate for an ML conversion.
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Post by edge on Dec 22, 2010 6:33:57 GMT -5
Very nice looking rifle.
edge.
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Post by dave d. on Dec 22, 2010 7:00:51 GMT -5
:)slufoot excellent job. Dad will be happy for sure.
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Post by sw on Dec 22, 2010 7:18:17 GMT -5
:)slufoot, This is such a nice thing you have done. The rifle will be a perfect present . Incidentally, I use a Weaver K-4 on my NEF SMI 50 cal( hopefully a 40 cal before too long). Considering the barrel length, have you tried VV-110 or 120, RL-7,etc?
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Post by mike3132 on Dec 22, 2010 12:33:29 GMT -5
In sure you already know this but the SB-1 frame are cast and not recommended for high pressure barrels, SB-2 are steel and used on the Handi rifles. SB-1 frames are only used on shotguns. The only difference in the two is strength. Mike
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Post by littlejoe on Dec 22, 2010 13:03:51 GMT -5
Mike, I was planning on getting a .45 cal Douglas barrel from SMI for my sons H&R Pardner youth 20 gauge. Is this ill advised? Ron Name told me I could get a 22" .45cal for this gun. Thanks, Joe
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Post by mike3132 on Dec 22, 2010 15:32:15 GMT -5
Little Joe, SB-2 Frames are the only ones NEF recommend putting center fire barrels on because they are steel frames hence stronger than the cast SB-1 frames. I know a guy who has a SMI barrel on a SB-1 frame and it seems to be OK. Im sure Ron Name will tell you what frame they recommend at SMI but I think they tell you to use SB-2 frames. Would a SB-1 frame fail with a SMI barrel on it... ? Probably not but why take a chance. Mike
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Post by littlejoe on Dec 22, 2010 16:29:39 GMT -5
Thanks Mike, I double checked H&R website. My sons gun is an SB1. I noticed on the Handi/Slug combos is specifically states not to put any other centerfire barrel other than the combo rifle barrel (all of which are pistol calibers). I guess I am buying a youth Handi rifle also. I was already planning on getting one of the new stainless Ultra Handis. Joe
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Post by machinist on Dec 22, 2010 17:06:10 GMT -5
Slufoot what do you charge to do the conversion?
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Post by Slufoot on Dec 22, 2010 21:01:27 GMT -5
Thanks everybody for all the positive comments! I really wanted to do something special for my dad this year, I think he will be really surprised. In sure you already know this but the SB-1 frame are cast and not recommended for high pressure barrels, SB-2 are steel and used on the Handi rifles. SB-1 frames are only used on shotguns. The only difference in the two is strength. Mike Mike this is a very good point that you brought up. The SB-2 frames were made to take the backthrust of high pressure cartridges such as the 270, 308 etc, etc. The SB-1 frame is used for all shotgun barrels, Huntsman muzzleloader barrels and now all 357 and 44 Magnums are sold on SB-1 frames. The frame doesn't matter on a muzzleloader barrel with a fixed breechplug. The Savage plug has a ventliner with about a .031" orifice hole that the gasses would have to pass through before putting any pressure on the 209 primer which is the only thing that would put any backthrust on the frame. If you shot a load that generated 40,000 PSI there would be very little pressure that could make it through the .031" orifice. Maybe someone that is really good with the math can figure this out. Anyway the only thing the frame really needs to do is hold the barrel and take the recoil. I've been shooting my 45-70 Handi conversion for over three years now and have several hundred shots through it, all of which have been with smokeless powder. I bought one of the very first Savage ML-II smokeless muzzleloaders and have put well over 600 rounds through it, all with smokeless powder. The Savage ML-II has no locking lugs, what locks the bolt is the bolt handle, this should shed some light on how much pressure is actually exerted to the 209 primer. This is also the reason I install the Savage breechplugs in these conversions, they were designed for use with smokeless powder. GOOD SHOOTING! Slufoot
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Post by littlejoe on Dec 22, 2010 22:55:11 GMT -5
Slufoot, in your opinion is the SB1 I already have strong enough for an SMI douglas barrel in .45? It would be nice to use the gun I already have. It would have light youth loads through it. Thanks, Joe
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Post by Slufoot on Dec 23, 2010 9:11:34 GMT -5
Slufoot, in your opinion is the SB1 I already have strong enough for an SMI douglas barrel in .45? It would be nice to use the gun I already have. It would have light youth loads through it. Thanks, Joe Hey Joe, I Don't know what type BP that SMI uses but with a Savage BP I know your SB-1 frame will be fine. As a matter of fact I prefer the SB-1 frames for the large firing pin. I think I read on here about some people getting BP's from SMI that used a Savage type ventliner? I would definetly want this if I were ordering from them. GOOD SHOOTING! Slufoot
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Post by pposey on Dec 23, 2010 9:16:35 GMT -5
That makes sense about the frame strenght,,,,,
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Post by edge on Dec 23, 2010 9:24:52 GMT -5
I have never seen one in person, but the Ultimate Muzzleloader appears to basically have no real action!
It looks more like a barrel with an attached trigger.
edge.
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Post by machinist on Dec 23, 2010 9:57:00 GMT -5
Slufoot what do you charge to do the conversion?
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Post by Slufoot on Dec 23, 2010 10:31:40 GMT -5
Slufoot what do you charge to do the conversion? Hey machinist, sorry about missing your first post but I got my mind on the action strength question. I have been getting $60 to lapp the sharp edge of the crown and install and headspace your Savage BP. For the full blown conversion I do the above plus modify your forend to an ML forend, make a collapsable ramrod and install a ramrod thimble under the barrel. I won't do the schnable type forends, there isn't enough wood to make these work. I get $120 for the full blown conversion. These prices are what I get when someone brings me their barrel, forend & Savage BP. If it has to be mailed to then add whatever it cost to ship so that I can use that to cover return shipping. All I need to do the work is your barrel, forend and Savage Breech Plug. GOOD SHOOTING! Slufoot
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Post by edge on Dec 23, 2010 10:48:11 GMT -5
Now that sounds like a great deal edge.
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Post by pposey on Dec 23, 2010 10:53:47 GMT -5
No kidding!!! I may have to find a 45-70 H&R,,,, do those barrels tend to shoot OK with sabots and 200 grain bullets
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Post by rangeball on Dec 23, 2010 10:55:58 GMT -5
Little Joe, SB-2 Frames are the only ones NEF recommend putting center fire barrels on because they are steel frames hence stronger than the cast SB-1 frames. I know a guy who has a SMI barrel on a SB-1 frame and it seems to be OK. Im sure Ron Name will tell you what frame they recommend at SMI but I think they tell you to use SB-2 frames. Would a SB-1 frame fail with a SMI barrel on it... ? Probably not but why take a chance. Mike When I had my SMI barrel done I'm pretty sure they told me they could add a barrel to either SB1-2 as the BP contained all the pressure and wasn't subjected to the pounding it takes in a normal CF cartridge situation. Definitely ask again to be sure.
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Post by Slufoot on Dec 23, 2010 11:45:29 GMT -5
No kidding!!! I may have to find a 45-70 H&R,,,, do those barrels tend to shoot OK with sabots and 200 grain bullets Hey pposey, yes the 8 I have built have all shot saboted 200 grain bullets very nicely. GOOD SHOOTING! Slufoot
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Post by machinist on Dec 23, 2010 15:33:46 GMT -5
Slufoot what do you charge to do the conversion? Hey machinist, sorry about missing your first post but I got my mind on the action strength question. I have been getting $60 to lapp the sharp edge of the crown and install and headspace your Savage BP. For the full blown conversion I do the above plus modify your forend to an ML forend, make a collapsable ramrod and install a ramrod thimble under the barrel. I won't do the schnable type forends, there isn't enough wood to make these work. I get $120 for the full blown conversion. These prices are what I get when someone brings me their barrel, forend & Savage BP. If it has to be mailed to then add whatever it cost to ship so that I can use that to cover return shipping. All I need to do the work is your barrel, forend and Savage Breech Plug. GOOD SHOOTING! Slufoot pm me where to ship it to and I will give you my ups info so it gets shipped back on my dime.
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Post by Slufoot on Dec 23, 2010 19:40:10 GMT -5
pm me where to ship it to and I will give you my ups info so it gets shipped back on my dime.[/quote] Machinist I sent you a PM. Please inform me how the UPS works on return shipping to you. Thanks! GOOD SHOOTING! Slufoot
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Post by olsmokey on Dec 24, 2010 19:54:03 GMT -5
I would think that if an SB-1 frame can handle the pounding from a 3.5 in. 10ga. that it should handle a 45 muzzle loader.
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Post by olsmokey on Dec 25, 2010 13:56:45 GMT -5
I see the SMI barrels are 1-36 twist, I assume the 45-70 barrels are considerably faster, what are the pros and cons [if any] of the faster twist? slufoot have you done any 200 yrd shooting with your conversions to see how it performs at long range? thanks Dave
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Post by Slufoot on Dec 25, 2010 15:08:55 GMT -5
I see the SMI barrels are 1-36 twist, I assume the 45-70 barrels are considerably faster, what are the pros and cons [if any] of the faster twist? slufoot have you done any 200 yrd shooting with your conversions to see how it performs at long range? thanks Dave Hello olsmokey, The 45-70 Handi barrels have a 1 - 20" twist. I have done a little informal long range shooting. I have a 100 yard range at my house but that's as far as I can go. A friend of mine has a shooting house, it has a bench at the window and it also has his reloading setup in it, very nice! He can shoot out to 300 yards from his shooting house. He also has one of the conversions I did, anyway one day I went there to see where I was hitting at extended range. I have a 3-9 Leupold with the LR duplex reticle, it has the crosshair and then two dots below it. I had my scope lined up just a little over two inches high @ 100 yards. At 200 yards from his house he has a target stand and right beside it was a rock about the size of a grapefruit, I held dead on the rock and smoked it. At 300 yards he has a 5"X6" swinging steel plate that was freshly painted white. He told me to hit that plate and I told him that he had better watch to see where I hit because I had no idea how to hold. I held the second dot down on the LR reticle and squeezed off a shot and to my surprize I hit the steel plate. My buddy absolutely flipped out and after he finally calmed down he said, "Allright big boy, let me see you do it again!" Now the pressure was on, I let the gun cool for a few minutes then loaded back and settled into the bench. I held the second dot down at the top of the plate this time because the first shot hit at the bottom edge of the plate. When the gun went off the plate was swinging again and this time my buddy really went wild. We then jumped on his four wheeler to try to find some groundhogs. It didn't take long till we spotted one running to his hole. I got off the ATV and rested off the front rack, I could see that he had his head out of the hole at about 200 yards, I held for the top of his head and squeezed off a shot but missed because the hog came out of the hole ran down the hill and went in another hole. We rode to another field and spotted another one, I knew it was a farther shot than the first one and asked Perk how far do you think it is. He said "I know that's right at 250 yards because I've ranged this field several times while groundhogging". I told him I was going to hold the first dot down on my reticle dead on. This hog was completely out of his hole and I once again rested on the front rack of the ATV, I settled the first dot down on him and squezzed the trigger. This time the hog just crumpled and started rolling down the hill. I know this isn't a very good range report for long range shooting but it gave me a good idea of how to hold out to 300 yards and I was very pleased with the results. GOOD SHOOTING! Slufoot
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