gjs4
Forkhorn
Posts: 75
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Post by gjs4 on Nov 25, 2010 19:05:29 GMT -5
First off..... Happy Thanksgiving
I love my 10ml2, but she hurt me bad this morning. I have harvested a number of deer with this gun some at astounding ranges. I have had a couple hangfires and even a "no pop" (primer only) event.
But today....ouch. I hunt smart and hard in additon to cateringt he family farm to whitetails and hunting them. I decided to go for broke today and sit the center stand due to the east wind ...this stand only gets visited once a year. Most shots are 150-200 yards, but this is where you want to be when the neighbors are driving. My plan worked out perfect.......except when the gorgeous 4.5 yo 140s 8pt came all the way to 40 yards (yes!!!: bow range) and I sneared with a grin, slid the safety off and started making plan for the mount something I was already cooked. Put him in my scope as he stopped knowing somthing was upped, let half a deeep breath out, crosshairs in place and...
"pop"....only the primer went off.
I shoot win (blue box primers), 68 gr 4198 metal can, black crush ribs and BOs....again..I have had an issue or two before but not at a moment like this. I shoot this gun a alot too.
Long story short..new primer, went bang, deer went "ha" at 170...and i went "@#^&$#!!!"
Took it home, reloaded..adn two primers went "pop" before the third one caught.
I thoroughly cleaned the gun after some early fall range time and shot it once a week ago to verify it was on.
Tore the bp out...soaked it with solvent, used a fine pin to clean further..it did not look scuzzy at all nor did any debris come out...
Any ideas?
Think i needed to vent more than anything.....
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gjs4
Forkhorn
Posts: 75
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Post by gjs4 on Nov 25, 2010 19:17:17 GMT -5
Some additions
weather here has ranged ffrom 30 to 60 and the gun has been exposed to rain. I do not bringt he gun in at night or allow it to be heated in the truck. The gun was rained on tues night.
Bullets are always seated as hard as I can.
Theyre pretty darn tough to stuff down; so there must be a good seal.
BP is only a year old, with maybe 35-45 shots on it and just two since cleaned (though i did shoot a few primers through).
Hate to go back to 4759 for i love the long range perf and terminal perf of this combo...but cant let this happen again..
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trb0
8 Pointer
Posts: 211
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Post by trb0 on Nov 25, 2010 19:31:26 GMT -5
Well theres only one thing to do. Sell me that #@%%#@ rifle to rid yourself of the memories.LOL. I need a rifle for a .45 pacnor build. Seriously though I hate to hear about your bad luck. I figure on only getting a shot at a big whitetail about once every 3 years and yes you want to make every opportunity count.
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Post by Flatland Hunter on Nov 25, 2010 19:40:01 GMT -5
IMR4198? I have had the same issues and went to RL7 when I had a similar situation. Neighbors causing their usual ruckus, chases the nicest, biggest buck I have had a shot at within 70 yds... pphhhttt, only the bullet shoots out about 15 yds leaving the sabot and powder in place... I hunted with the same setup for several more days and had several misfires on game. Changed to RL7 midseason and haven't turned back.
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gjs4
Forkhorn
Posts: 75
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Post by gjs4 on Nov 25, 2010 19:56:49 GMT -5
trbo thanks for your solution lol. Loong for a long wrapped package under your tree in a month, ok? In western NY this is a buck of a lifetime for almost everyone..... flatland- so i am not the only one? whats your current load/trajectory? I am making the assumption it is similar to the 4198
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guppy
8 Pointer
hunting buddy
Posts: 191
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Post by guppy on Nov 25, 2010 20:09:54 GMT -5
CCI209M primers and a recessed plug took care of any problems I had. My 0.02¢
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gjs4
Forkhorn
Posts: 75
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Post by gjs4 on Nov 25, 2010 20:22:12 GMT -5
whats a recessed plug?
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Post by pposey on Nov 25, 2010 20:48:35 GMT -5
Fed 209M primers would help some, or a faster powder, heck at 40 yards you could have got him with 25 grains 4759
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gjs4
Forkhorn
Posts: 75
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Post by gjs4 on Nov 25, 2010 21:05:28 GMT -5
I think a 300gr barnes and a innertube/stick sling shot would have done the trick.
What a rush though..and in my mind...there ws nothing that couldve saved him....lol....got humbled big time
The more seasons I have under my belt the more it is about the experience. I have harvested a ton of deer, and usually stack does for the freezer at the end of each season....but have close encounters with big whitetails, sunrises, birds...adn so so many other things.....just make it great. But trusting my gun and dumping a toad of a buck wouldnt hurt anything either.
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Post by chuck41 on Nov 25, 2010 21:37:28 GMT -5
You didn't say if it was H-4198 or IMR-4198. I had problems too with IMR version. At the worst possible time it would just go "poof" instead of "bang". I have found the CCI primers to be very reliable in both my 50 and my 40. I did have some problems with some WIN primers. Too long ago to remember exactly which version.
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Post by DBinNY on Nov 25, 2010 21:37:59 GMT -5
Just a thought. I have never, ever soaked my breech plug in solvent. If there is too much carbon (a matter of personal opinion) I simply drill it out. I have intentionally tortured the gun by repeatedly bringing it inside after hunting in cold weather and have never had a misfire. This with R7 and H4198 in .50 and .45. I'm not saying the soaking the plug is the problem here but often wonder if it's a good idea. I do know that it is not necessary.
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Post by lwh723 on Nov 25, 2010 22:50:32 GMT -5
Winchester primers are your problem. I had all kinds of trouble with I4198 and Win primers.
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Post by dannoboone on Nov 25, 2010 23:35:44 GMT -5
Ditto on the Win primers. They should be what's fallen off your list of things to be thankful for.
A recessed plug is one in which about 3/8" (sometimes more) is drilled into the "snout" end and chamferred to correctly accept the vent liner. More threading is needed for the vent liner.
With a harder to ignite powder like H4198, what ya really need is a magnum primer. I had issues with the Federal's sticking and went the the CCI's which worked without any misfires in five years of using them.
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Post by boarhog on Nov 26, 2010 0:25:05 GMT -5
GJS4, The fear of that happening to me is why I put 10 gr of 4759 or VV N-110 under 55 gr of either version of 4198. NO BLOOPERS!! I also use either CCI 209M or Federal 209A primers. Boarhog
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Nov 26, 2010 5:02:24 GMT -5
DB has read my mind again. There is NO need to soak your plug with anything to clean it. ZERO NONE.
There is also no need to lube your plug threads...teflon tape is dry and works 100%.
Any powder charge that is in the gun long enough has the potential to slowly wick ANY lubes, solvent residues, grease and alter the properties of your powder.
There is NO problems in using the powder you use in any temps if it's dry, packed tight with a tight fitting bullet/sabot combo. Like DB, I've torture tested my gun over a period of years...and lbs of H4198.
I don't like the idea that these instances scare others away...or push them into duplex's..when when all they really want to do is use this powder as a single.
Sorry about your missed opportunity...but really...keep that stuff dry and try what I am suggesting.
I should add to this that you should be using at least 70 gr with 250 bullets and 68 with 300 gr bullets. If you can use a a few more grains even better. (for good pressure reasons not power) If this is too much recoil, use a different powder...NOT LESS 4198.
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Post by ET on Nov 26, 2010 6:30:55 GMT -5
Theyre pretty darn tough to stuff down; so there must be a good seal. Gjs4 I once too thought that the sabot produced a good seal to the bore but I’m afraid that line of thinking is incorrect. This was proven to me by another member who posted trying this observation. Remove the BP & bolt and shove bullet/sabot down the bore roughly to its loading position. Then look into the bolt end of the bore with the muzzle pointed where there is good daylight exposure. The sabot only seals the bore when the base is flared from hot generating gases. So covering the muzzle with some thin plastic wrap of some kind for wet weather conditions is advisable. I also don’t use liquid solvents for cleaning my BP. Just a few assorted drill bits and a 10/32 tap to remove as much carbon as possible. Ed
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Post by 10ga on Nov 26, 2010 8:12:15 GMT -5
dittos to what boarhog said. Go straight 4759, or duplex, and go to CCI or Fed. primers. $.02 10 ga
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gjs4
Forkhorn
Posts: 75
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Post by gjs4 on Nov 26, 2010 9:01:42 GMT -5
Thanks for all the input guys.
It is metal can IMR.
I guess in the 6/7 years i have owned the gun i have only soaked the bp (though two; becasue i stripped the original)2 or 3 times. I understand the theory but doubt thats the cause. I used teflon tape on the vl, and had always used just a trace of neverseize on the bp mainly on the bolt side threads.
I had used cci 209s (copper colored ones) and i think i dropped them because they would get stuck in the bolt face. Honestly dont remember though...
Will take advantage of the 50mph gusty morning and go shopping for new primers..... will i need to resight? I figured if the wind died i would use a verifier w new primer (and to lessen my paranoia about solvent issues)...but todays not a good range day...
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Post by joe21a on Nov 26, 2010 9:07:09 GMT -5
I have used IMR 4198 in my 45 and 50 and never had a miss fire. I would look at the rain getting in if you barrel was not covered or possibly contamination from the lub or solvent you use on the breach plug.My 45 has a very loose barrel, I shot 65 gr of IRM 4198,CCI primer, 200gr bullet in the tan sabot. When I leave the load in during the NY season I always put pressure on the bullet at the start of the hunt to assure it is well seated.
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Post by mike3132 on Nov 26, 2010 9:27:19 GMT -5
As others have said, change powders to Reloader 7, 65 grains, mag primer and problem solved. Speed and accuracy will be the same. Mike
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Post by screwbolts on Nov 26, 2010 9:40:15 GMT -5
You didn't say if it was H-4198 or IMR-4198. I had problems too with IMR version. At the worst possible time it would just go "poof" instead of "bang". I have found the CCI primers to be very reliable in both my 50 and my 40. I did have some problems with some WIN primers. Too long ago to remember exactly which version. Metal Can! to the best of my knowledge H has NEVER came in a METAL Can! H used to come in coffee sacks :-) I am currently shooting R7 with 300 or 333 gr boolitz in HSBs out of my latest converted Rem 700ML 50 cal. I really like R7 in the smokeless guns. I also use Win 209s exclusively in this rifle. I have even used Rem 209-4s in my Rolling Block with it's recessed plug. Ken Central NY
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Post by Flatland Hunter on Nov 26, 2010 10:35:56 GMT -5
OK. I was using I4198, with a recessed teflon taped plug, with Fed 209a primers, 65gn of I4198, 300 gn XTP in Harvester short black sabot, loaded that morning at the truck. PPhhhtt at 15*. Had it go pphhtt at those temps with the regular plug. I used it for my first year with the MLII and had no issues but temps weren't that low. 2nd year with cold temps... problems. No problems with RL7.
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Post by bigmoose on Nov 26, 2010 12:57:20 GMT -5
Here my 2 cents, Wilmsmeyer said it all, I use H4198 and CCIM for 95% of my shooting, the only other powder I use is Benchmark, and that for only bullet. I have an unopened jug of V110, have no thought of using it. Back to the question, this what I do, when hunting in places, where it rains, snow, go into a tent with a pot belly going full blast, good for me not a muzzleloader , I fire the rifle, in the morning I load it again outdoors,, and it goes bang when I pull the trigger. one difference is I soak and drill my BP after every range session and at the end of the hunt IMHO there is the right or wrong way, just do what pleases you. Best Wishes, Marty
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Post by whyohe on Nov 26, 2010 16:12:32 GMT -5
I have to agree. change pimer to mag or FED 209As and i bet problem goes away. also after you clean the BP and ventliner pop a couple primers only threw it before the next load and that should burn any residue out so it wont wick into powder and IF any antiseaze will blow out.
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Post by bigmoose on Nov 26, 2010 18:12:50 GMT -5
Add whyohe post to mine, I forgot that very important step
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gjs4
Forkhorn
Posts: 75
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Post by gjs4 on Nov 26, 2010 19:32:11 GMT -5
went to rl7 and ccis.... shoots great..... gun was blasted with snow for two hrs tonight...guess we'll see how it ends up...
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Post by timberman on Nov 26, 2010 19:52:18 GMT -5
I was having a problem with the powder getting wet in the rain even tho I had a balloon over the muzzle. Then I read on this board about putting an o-ring on the primer since then I have not had a problem with the rain here in NY. That sounds like it's not what you have run into but just a remedy for a possible future problem. My 2 cts.
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gjs4
Forkhorn
Posts: 75
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Post by gjs4 on Nov 26, 2010 21:24:30 GMT -5
an oring on the primer, huh? what size?
i need to check out these recessed b plugs too
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Post by smokepole50 on Nov 27, 2010 11:59:15 GMT -5
IMR4198 vs H4198..........
I don't have my Smokeless ML built yet but I have been reloading about 20 different calibers a LONG time. From what I read and read again on the internet, IMR powders are very temperature sensitive and I like them still but I am slowly switching to Hodgen powders. IMR powders shoot hotter in summer and slower in winter. I believe Hodgen has fixed this with their Extreme brand of powders. Since Hodgen owns the IMR brand and still sells both IMR and H4198 there has to be a difference. I know H4198 is a bit hotter in cartridge rifles and I know that when I finish my SML it will be dialed in with H4198 because I believe it is a more stabe powder and will possibly be more reliable in the woods in all sorts of conditions. The first thing you will notice about Hodgen powder is that it does not have that graphite coating to control burn rate that IMR powders have. I believe this graphite coating could be part of the issues surrounding misfires with IMR4198 and ML rifles using shotgun primers. Graphite is very hydoscopic (absorbs water easly) so it is plausable that it could be made harder to ignigte when exposed to moisture or colder temperature. You might want to try Hodgen Extreme powders if you like 4198. Just some thoughts......
Smokepole
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Post by bigmoose on Nov 27, 2010 12:41:16 GMT -5
I use H4198 because it was recommended by Rick, after much testing of other powders, he is gone, but his charts and load info will live on. Each time I pull the trigger, I'm following his lead.
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