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Post by 10ga on Oct 27, 2010 9:09:08 GMT -5
Working on load developement for my Encore 45-70 conversion. Shooting 200 XTP and smooth light blue sabot. Down to 50 gr. H4198 and still an incredible muzzle flash. The barrel is 22" from face of BP to muzzle. The flash indicates unburned powder? Is it OK, ie. safe, to keep reducing load by 1 gr until flash reduces? Does anyone know how much lower will I have to go? I can see the flash easily in daylight through the scope when I shoot. What about other powders? I have aa2015, H322 and some IMR4198 and of course some sr4759. I've been throught the load data and that is for 26-28" barrels? How much should I, is it safe to, reduce loads for the shorter barrel? I used PPoseys reduced load of 31 gr. of 4759 to get on paper and shot bug holes at 50 yd. Thanks, Bob
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Post by rangeball on Oct 27, 2010 9:50:30 GMT -5
Isn't 4759 closer to N110 in burn rate? I think I remember edge saying some time ago 42gr of N110 should burn in 14-16".
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Post by 10ga on Oct 27, 2010 10:01:03 GMT -5
Range, Getting the BIG flash with the H4198. the 4759 was rather mild and no flash but I'd think anything over 35 gr of 4759 would be too hot in a 45, same for the vv110, but haven't tried that as it's not listed?
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Post by rangeball on Oct 27, 2010 10:20:33 GMT -5
The load database shows 33-40gr for N110 with a 195-200gr bullet. No idea what expected velocity is.
Possibly try upping the 4759 a grain at a time until you blow a sabot?
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Post by chuck41 on Oct 27, 2010 10:24:09 GMT -5
Working on load developement for my Encore 45-70 conversion. Shooting 200 XTP and smooth light blue sabot. Down to 50 gr. H4198 and still an incredible muzzle flash. The barrel is 22" from face of BP to muzzle. The flash indicates unburned powder? Is it OK, ie. safe, to keep reducing load by 1 gr until flash reduces? Does anyone know how much lower will I have to go? I can see the flash easily in daylight through the scope when I shoot. What about other powders? I have aa2015, H322 and some IMR4198 and of course some sr4759. I've been throught the load data and that is for 26-28" barrels? How much should I, is it safe to, reduce loads for the shorter barrel? I used PPoseys reduced load of 31 gr. of 4759 to get on paper and shot bug holes at 50 yd. Thanks, Bob The muzzle flash is typical of slower burning powders especially in short barrels and it is from the powder that is not completely burned in the barrel. H4198 will likely give substantial muzzle flash, but that does not mean it is unsafe to use or undesirable as a choice. As long as you are getting good accuracy and sabots are not shredded you are in a good pressure range and need not worry about it. Continue to reduce the quantity and you will probably get inconsistent ignition and poor accuracy. Using light loads of 4759 will likely eliminate the flash, but you will probably not get the velocity want without excessive pressure in that 45. The 322 is a bit slower burning than the H4198 and will likely increase the flash, but it should be a good performer in a 45. Richard's 45 loads should give you a good idea of what to expect: h1.ripway.com/dougsboard/pdfs/Richards powder.pdf |
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Post by 10ga on Oct 27, 2010 11:11:10 GMT -5
When I first shot the 4198 there were about 7 guys sighting in, we only have 2 shooting stations. I'd already tried the reduced load of 4759 and it was no big deal. When I switched over to the 4198 it startled everybody, about half of us shooting MLIIs and the others shooting BH209 and none expected the flamethrower. That was with 55 gr. This is intended as a woods gun so 150 yd. is about max expected range and 95% will be under 85 yds. Thanks, Bob
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Post by pposey on Oct 27, 2010 11:50:19 GMT -5
My 21 inch pacnor may have been tighter than your barrel as I could get a pretty good burn with 54 grains 4198,,, any and I mean any over that and I was getting huge fireballs,,, are you using a mag primer??? I was using the Fed 209A I think,, the mag fed primer... not using a mag primer with 4759 helped some with not blowing sabots Here are some tidbits from my earlier dealings with this subject dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=smokeless&thread=4855&page=1Then I was using the 200 sst with the rounded base,, I got ahold of some 200XTP bullets then and posted the following dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=smokeless&thread=5901&page=1Had I not bulged my barrel I was going to move this load up to 34-35 grains of 4759 and the new Barnes Flat base, I think it could have handled the pressure better that the SST,, the SST handled 35 grains pretty well but the sabots were stressed where the SST sets and you could tell they had stretched some around the base, I also was blowing a sabot every 15 shots or so but was getting pretty good acuracy |
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Oct 27, 2010 18:15:02 GMT -5
I get muzzle flash too with 70 gr H4198 and 300+gr bullets. I use the flash as a tool. If I see the flame in the scope I know I squeezed the shot. Think I'm Jokin? ;D
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Post by boarhog on Oct 27, 2010 19:14:48 GMT -5
I don't see the point of worrying about muzzle flash, unless it is a fire hazard where you hunt. Seems to me the group you get would indicate if the load is consistent or not. If you can shoot at longer range, vertical stringing could mean varying speeds. Or shooting over a chronograph? If you have any VV N-120, you might give it a try. In my 45, I get a bit more speed with N-120 than H-4198 at the same charge weight. I have no idea if it is faster or slower in burning rate than 4198.
Boarhog
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Post by rbinar on Oct 27, 2010 23:47:12 GMT -5
8-)Why are you looking at the muzzle and not the target??
Shoot at the normal level (about 55 to 60 grains) for H4198 and a 200 garin bullet in 45 caliber. If you are having some accuracy problem then worry about the flash. If it shoots then you have a rifle and fireworks as well.
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Post by edge on Oct 28, 2010 7:25:14 GMT -5
I generally do not get superb accuracy when there is a huge muzzle flash but that may have more to do with my sabots than anything else.
Clearly if you have a huge flash then you are not burning efficiently too and you might want to consider some other load unless it is very accurate for you.
Perhaps drop a few more grains and add a couple of grains of a booster powder. I would suspect that your velocity is not where it should be but since your shots are not long that probably is not any real issue.
edge.
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Post by pposey on Oct 28, 2010 8:04:18 GMT -5
I generally do not get superb accuracy when there is a huge muzzle flash but that may have more to do with my sabots than anything else. Clearly if you have a huge flash then you are not burning efficiently too and you might want to consider some other load unless it is very accurate for you. Perhaps drop a few more grains and add a couple of grains of a booster powder. I would suspect that your velocity is not where it should be but since your shots are not long that probably is not any real issue. edge. +1 For me a big flash equals wasted powder and extra recoil with no gain,, If most of the powder isn't burning in the barrel then you are wasting it. |
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Post by mountainam on Oct 28, 2010 8:40:30 GMT -5
10, You may want to consider going to a double base powder like Rx7. Some charts show it a bit slower,but the Hodgdon chart shows it a bit faster. Along with a weaker primer like a Rem STS it just may solve the flash problem. It's a great performer too. Good LucK!
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Post by moto357 on Oct 29, 2010 6:42:59 GMT -5
after doing chrony tests with 4198 and rel 7, i found the reloader 7 to be slightly faster burning. might be a good place to look.
i also like what edge said about trying some duplexing, maybe nothing extravagant, but might help you get to where you are looking to go?
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