Blown sabots with 45

[deadon]

I was all ready to try 57 thru 60 grs of h 4198 with the 200 sst and the 195 gr barnes, Shot twice with SSTs two blown sabots, shot once with the 195 gr Barnes Boarhog sent me and blown sabot. Guess I have to wait and get some new Barnes flat based bullets. 56 grs did ok I hae no bullets to compare them to. The horn SSTs and she shockwaves all look the same. I was using the blue CR, do the smooth Harv Blue sabots stand up better? Anyway , it was a beautiful morning to be outdoors, Rusty

[jeff]

Hey Deadon,
I have followed your dozens of posts since you came aboard and I'll give you credit your trying but, your putting the cart in front of the horse alot. I think you figured a pacnor would end all your questions and troubles with a muzzleloader, as your finding out it hasn't. Your going to have to spend some $ and time figuring some of these things out. For instance a blown sabot can be caused by something as simple as a undersized sabot. You need to go out and buy 3 or 4 different size sabots and the same for bullets and logically figure some things out, it's great when a member sends you a few bullets or sabots to try but you wont learn much. I've been shooting the ml2 for nine years and a pacnor for two. The pacnor does have much more consistency than the stock savage barrel however it is still a loose powder gun. Many shooters have come and gone off this board, and I would have to suspect that the no.1 reason would be that the Constancy expected was not there as expected, primarily because the smokeless powder was associated with center fire guns and consistency, and it didn't happen.Plus its alot more work than many are willing to give to it.Your questions are great but, I hate to be the messenger,but until you spend the $ required to get enough supplies to go about this the right way, your only ever get mediocre results whether you have a pacnor or any other muzzleloader. Good Luck!
Jeff~

[Deleted]

Oct 3, 2010 11:18:15 GMT -5 deadon said:

I was all ready to try 57 thru 60 grs of h 4198 with the 200 sst and the 195 gr barnes, Shot twice with SSTs two blown sabots, shot once with the 195 gr Barnes Boarhog sent me and blown sabot. Guess I have to wait and get some new Barnes flat based bullets. 56 grs did ok I hae no bullets to compare them to. The horn SSTs and she shockwaves all look the same. I was using the blue CR, do the smooth Harv Blue sabots stand up better? Anyway , it was a beautiful morning to be outdoors, Rusty

Rusty...
Chances are that heat is your culprit....In my experience the hotter it gets the less powder you'll be able to use. In our .45's we're are limited in our choices of sabots and bullets...The harvester blues are working the best for everybody. Keep your barrel cool [cooling rod] and be patient and you'll be OK. I've found that I have to limit my H4198 @ 60gns when the heat gets up to 75-80 degrees even with the cooling rod. Even at that your accuracy will suffer somewhat.. The new flat based Barnes might be the ticket but don't give up on the SST's or the old Barnes.....They've been found by many to be very accurate if shot under the right circumstances. I've shot the best groups ever with those two bullets and 62gns H4198 when it was 25 degrees outside and no wind.
Keep it fun...Zen

[boarhog]

Rusty,
Yesterday, I shot those same 195 gr Barnes bullets with 62 gr H-4198, but I now realize that I need to sort through them to find any that have a more pronounced radius. The SSTs I have are probably worthless for smokeless. Way too much radius!! I have also found that, if you blow a sabot or two, it is a good idea to pull the breech plug and run a bronze brush through the bore several times. Apparently blown sabots leave plastic globs in the barrel that a patch alone doesn't remove. And check your vent liner to make sure it hasn't gotten too large.
As far as durability, the smooth and ribbed Harvesters are made out of the same stuff. I haven't seen any accuracy difference, even though the ribbed is a little easier to load. I'll send you a few smooth sabots to try.
Robert

[Richard]

I can not, for the life of me, figure out why you are blowing sabots at that velocity (lor amount of H-4198 powder)? As Panhnadle indicated, it probably is heat? I would say cleaning or swabbing the barrel, but Herman never puts a patch in his and he not regularly blowing sabots........very occasionally?? All summer long shooting in the 2900 to 3100 fps range I have not blown more than one or two sabots? And as you all know, that is a legitimate 30 to 40 shots each week? I just lightly patch each shot and use the cool rod almost every shot. On occasion, if we stop to BS with member or whatever, and say 15 min. transpires, I usually get away with two shots in a row without cooling and have gone as much as three. Once I start a five shot string, its the cool rod EVERY time.
And as Jeff has indicated, you need to spend more time shooting and testing yourself...........That is the way you will learn what your gun is capable of. Your questions have been answered many times over, now its up to you.
Richard

[rybo74]

Rusty I went through the same thing for two months before I figured it out. I have a .45 pacnor and I would blown sabots with 56 grains of 4198. After about 400 phone calls with Dave d we figured it out. It is the bullets. I would have never thought this but at first Dave said that there had been a few problems with the Barnes so I went to the shock waves and had the same problem. It would be very erratic. Some times I could shoot two shots with no problem and then one would blow. Then some times I would blow the first shot. I tried changing everything. I thought I had bad powder,sabots,vent liner and anything else except for the bullets. I went to the store and bought some .400 200 grain XTPs and went back to the range. I have not blown a sabot since. I will have have my Barnes bullets tomorrow and will post back on how I make out. If you do the same you will smile trust me. This went on for so long I lost my shooting confidence. One day at the range with the xtp and 58 grains and I had a giant smile on my face. I also figured out that if I went through a box of shock waves that I could pick out the ones that would blow and the ones that would shoot. Good luck

[tar12]

IMO, the cooling rod concept is worthless to the average hunter as he is not going to be packing that thing to the stand.If you are going to punch paper all day it is a wondeful aid. I feel Richards load suggestions are flawed as they are being created under artificial conditions and to the newbie are creating unrealistic expectations.Though Richard may be able to shoot to 3000 fps with the cooling rod on any given day that does not mean the newbie .45 owner can start at that given load and expect success the first time out or ever if they do not use the cooling rod. I do not think people should confuse Richards loads for proven hunting loads that are NOT blowing sabots EVER! If you blow any sabots in load development that load is to hot and not reliable enough for me as a hunting load! I am not defending Deadon or bashing Richard but when I see people blowing sabots at any given powder weight that is a reliability problem to me.I do realize there are several factors that can lead to sabot failure and one big one is pushing the 3000 fps mark.To those who do not want or see a need for the cooling rod and want to use Richards loads I would suggest starting below the max. suggestion and shoot and shoot until you come up with a reliable hunting load.

[lwh723]

Oct 3, 2010 18:58:24 GMT -5 tar12 said:

If you blow any sabots in load development that load is to hot and not reliable enough for me as a hunting load!

Agreed.

[lwh723]

I believe the root cause (as I theorized over a year ago when I started blowing sabots with my 45PCNR over a year ago-- dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=smokeless&thread=2600&page=1) is the radius bases on the SST and BX. I believe some underlying variables exist that make the radius effect greater in some instances.

1) Bore Diameter: Not usually noticed with the 45PCNR because it's not as great as the stock 50Cal barrels. (Smooth blue harvester pretty much shoots fine for everyone.) However, I think a bore oversized slighly is more susceptible to the radius effect--SST's and BX's seat extremely easily in my gun.

2) Heat: some 45PCNR shooters are more patient than others and others use cool rods. And, of course, the radius effect may be negligible somewhere around 30F on down, but everyone does there load development late summer early fall in 60F+ weather. And I'm talking about sabots that are blowing on the first or second round of the day with loads that aren't considered hot.

3) Radius variation on the bullets themselves.

All that being said, the root cause is the radius effect. I have never blown a sabot with XTP's. And that includes shooting 6-10 shots as fast as I can load and shoot in 70+degree weather. I have, however, blown sabots with SST's and BX with as little as 58grs of H4198 on the VERY first shot of the day.

I'm very excited that shooter worked with Barnes to get us flat based BX's. I believe my days of knurling are over. Now we just need Barnes to add a pretty little tip.

[Chris Champion]

Isn't this board exactly what posts like deadons are for?

He came on here asking a bunch of questions from the start and I'm sure he's learned a lot since becoming a member. He posted this as a question looking to get some helpful information from the board...not to get beat up because he hasn't spent enough money on supplies. He's only had his Pacnor barrel for a few days. So the message being passed on to new members by a very small minority of this board is now: If you don't have the resources to try an endless array of bullets, sabots, and powder then don't bother getting into smokeless muzzleloading." Give me a break!!!

How is trying 57-60g of H4198 with a 195g Barnes or 200 SST in a Blue Harvester Crush Rib sabot putting the cart before the horse? Other than the sabot, what he is starting out with is one of the most proven loads out of the 45 pacnor. What else should he have started with? A 45 cal Savage Pacnor book load? Hmmm...I don't think there is one of those. The closest we have is RBinAR and his early work with the 45. And if I recall 56-60g H4198 with a 200g .40 cal bullet has always been his suggested starting load. If deadon would have purchased a couple of packs of 195BX, 200SST and Harvester sabots himself and was still blowing sabots would that have been OK? A lot of load development has been started on this board due to the generous nature of the memebers giving components to others to try.

And regarding the issue with blowing sabots. Its been widely reported that the increased base radius on the 195g Barnes and possibly the 200 SST has resulted in even one of our most well respected members, (Dave D), blowing sabots with a load that has shot nearly half MOA at 300 yds for him. That had nothing to do with heat or the use or non-use of cooling devices that allow long range sessions from the bench in warm weather. It was caused by an unknown design change to a bullet. And until it was discovered that Barnes would implement a design change to reincorporate the flat base, Dave D's response to this issue was, "I'm just going to hunt with the 200 XTP." Plain and simple. Use what you know works in your hunting conditions. I agree with Tar12 that a load that blows a sabot is not a trustworthy hunting load.

Deadon...you keep asking away brother. Don't let a couple bashers discourage you from reaching your goals with your new barrel.

[pposey]

I've blown alot of sabots with 54-56 grains of 4198,,, and other loads in other powders, the XTP shoots better for me as far as not blowing loads, cant wait to get some of the new barnes

[dave d.]

:)time behind the rifle is very useful but when a problem occurs we are here to help that's what makes this board so great. Rusty trust me when I say this it's your bullets and nothing else. Your loads are not hot at all and get some smooth blue harvestors and don't look back. Also like I told Ryan get a box of xtp's for sighting in and load development. Shoot your xtp's till you have a feel for everything and then switch over but when you switch over make sure your bullets are the flat base barnes. I'm working with hornady to get the sst's straighten out and hopefully they will listen to us smokeless guys and make the correction. Goodluck next time out

[pposey]

YES what Dave D said for sure!!!! I've shot hundreds of the SSts like a big duffis in load developement,,,, have the XTPs now and have shot a couple hundred in the past couple months without spending that much $$$$$$,,, unless they stitch out the base on the SST I may very well be a pure Barnes/XTP fan from now on

[jeff]

Oct 4, 2010 11:08:15 GMT -5 Chris Champion said:

Isn't this board exactly what posts like deadons are for?

He came on here asking a bunch of questions from the start and I'm sure he's learned a lot since becoming a member. He posted this as a question looking to get some helpful information from the board...not to get beat up because he hasn't spent enough money on supplies. He's only had his Pacnor barrel for a few days. So the message being passed on to new members by a very small minority of this board is now: If you don't have the resources to try an endless array of bullets, sabots, and powder then don't bother getting into smokeless muzzleloading." Give me a break!!!

I disagree MR CHRIS CHAMPION. NOW THIS IS BASHING YOU JERK. CAN YOU WALK ON WATER TOO.!

[dave d.]

:)guys settle down now you know the rules. There is no room for name calling or bashing on this great site.If you have a personal problem with someone do it in private...

[boarhog]

Children!!! Can't we all just get along??? There is no need for hostility!
BH

[dougedwards]

I remember in the old days we were using high doses of Lil Gun with shotgun wads to protect the base of the bullets. Some were getting great accuracy but ultimately every now and then would be a flyer that wouldn't even hit the target. It evidently takes trial and error to learn some things but I wonder if the sabots are not the culprit in this case. Check your vent liner and clean the breech plug just to make sure that you are getting consistent ignition but not all sabots are built alike. I bet if you shoot the smooth Harvester your problems will disappear but there is only way way to discover that.

Doug

[deadon]

Jeff Zen Robert Panhandle,Richard Rybo, Tar IWH723 Chris Posey and Dave D Thanks for all the advice. I went out to shoot with 100 Harv Blue CR, 4 boxes of 200 gr SSTs with tan sabots, 4 boxes of 200 gr shockwaves with green sabot , all of which I purchased Myself.. Robert sent me 10 195 gr Barnes bullets and 10 harv smooth blue sabots. Dougedwards and I are sending in an order to Barnes for two boxes of the 195 gr flat based bullet. If I get the chance this week I will try the tan sabots that came with the SSTs. Guess I will go clean my new 45, check the vent liner and breach plug . I will keep those interested posted and to those I seem to be bothering,its very easy for me not to bother you anymore. Do not read my post Thanks again for all the help Guys ;D Rusty

[pposey]

The ribbed harvester didn't work well for me either, to easy to load

[boarhog]

Rusty,
You said the Shockwaves you bought have a green sabot? If that is so, check the box to see what bullet size they are and what size the sabot fits. Usually, the green sabot fits a 50 cal bore and holds a .429-.430 bullet. They might not be useful in a 45 cal?

Well, I have definitely learned something new this week. It would not surprise me to learn that a huge portion of the accuracy problems, I had with my first Savage 50, were directly related to a pronounced radius on the bases. With SSTs and Shockwaves, I was lucky to get 8" groups, and in my PacNor 45, I have never had a decent group with the SSTs.
Boarhog

[deadon]

Oct 4, 2010 18:15:17 GMT -5 boarhog said:

Rusty,
You said the Shockwaves you bought have a green sabot? If that is so, check the box to see what bullet size they are and what size the sabot fits. Usually, the green sabot fits a 50 cal bore and holds a .429-.430 bullet. They might not be useful in a 45 cal?

Well, I have definitely learned something new this week. It would not surprise me to learn that a huge portion of the accuracy problems, I had with my first Savage 50, were directly related to a pronounced radius on the bases. With SSTs and Shockwaves, I was lucky to get 8" groups, and in my PacNor 45, I have never had a decent group with the SSTs.
Boarhog

Robert, on one side of the box it says .45 cal. 200gr Spire point.on the bottom of the box it says 45 cal sabots, 200 gr quantity 15 No. 8244. The sabots are a medium green color and they do not have the stepdown base. Rusty

[deadon]

Oct 4, 2010 17:50:21 GMT -5 pposey said:

The ribbed harvester didn't work well for me either, to easy to load

The Harv blue CR on a fouled barrel goes done with two hands of pressure.My wifes new digital bathroom scale is not worth a c@#$ as far as measuring seating pressure but the many bullet sabot combination's I pushed thru my 50 cal as members suggested would say maybe 35 to 45 lbs with the Cr and the 200 gr sst. With the 195 gr Barnes the seating pressure was somewhere around 60 lbs of pressure. The smooth Harv sabot took two hands and all I could give to push them thru. This was all done after I cleaned the barrell good to remove any plastic as Boarhog suggested after blowing Sabots. I will still try them both as well as the tan sabot that comes with the SSTs when I get a chance. Excited about trying the new flat based barnes when they get here. Thanks to all, Rusty

[boarhog]

Rusty,
Sounds like those Shockwaves ARE for a 45 cal. If the bullets mic .399-.400, that will confirm it. Perhaps they used a different color plastic on the sabots so they wouldn't look so much like the Hornady SSTs with the tan sabot. BTW, you may find the tan sabots to be tighter than the smooth blues.

When you get a chance to shoot again, hopefully the 40 cal XTPs I sent will be there. I am curious to know how they group compared to the 200 gr SSTs/Shockwaves/Barnes using the same load combination.
BH

[rangeball]

The 15 pack of .40 shockwaves I have here have a yellow tip and a blue smooth sabot. Just realized they are .50 sabots though, I didn't notice as I plan to use the bullets scrap the sabots from the get go.

[moto357]

i too have purchased the 200sst's with green sabots

looking forward to your results Rusty

[deadon]

Thanks again to all, This has truly been a learning experience but I think it is time for this thread to die . I will start a new one with my future results :)Rusty