Why Accuracy Past 100-yds?

[ET]

This is a question I periodically ask myself because all my deer shot with the 10ML-II have all been under 100yds so far. I hunt farmland both woodlots and fields in secluded sections of the farm. I basically know the deer travel routes and always set myself up close to these locations for the best shot possible.

But yet I strive and have obtained 200yd accuracy that would easily match or exceed most rifles out there off the shelf. In a way it really doesn’t make sense at this point in time for a need to be very accurate past 100yds. So what triggered this need for 200yd accuracy?

A little trip back in time always brings out a reminder what happened on one of my controlled hunts many years ago. At that time I had a Remington ML that would produce acceptable groups at 100yds but not much beyond that. Mind you I have to add that I didn’t have anywhere near the knowledge of muzzle-loaders I have today thanks to this Board. When meeting up with my hunting partner after a morning hunt we hiked along a pine hedgerow back to our vehicle when we spotted a beautiful buck 200yds across the field along the next pine hedgerow over. There he stood perfectly broadside across an open field with his head cocked & pointed straight at us watching our movements. This lasted for close to 10-minutes with us just staring at each other. Man what I would have given to reach out and accurately touch him with a lethal blow.

After that season I began a real search for what was out there for muzzle-loaders that might have the capability of 200yd accuracy. I found literature and velocity spec’s on the Savage 10ML-II smokeless and felt here was my ticket for such another meeting with a big buck at 200yds. On my own I was having a difficult time trying to accomplish what I wanted from the 10ML-II until I found this Board and the knowledgeable members began my education about smokeless muzzle-loading. The learning curve was initiated and even though it took some time I finally got what I sought and then even some more than expected. I will also add the learning hasn’t stopped either.

Today I am always hoping for such another encounter with a nice buck at 200-yds each season. I now have the capabilities and confidence of making a successful shot at that range thanks to this Boards help. It would also be nice to think back to this point in time that the buck at 200yds was just lucky I didn’t own a 10ML-II and was somewhat uneducated about smokeless muzzle-loading.

Some might wonder why such importance of sort of vindicating myself with this memory that happened a long time ago. I believe Ricardo Montaban said it best in a Star Trek movie when he met up with Captain Kirk again. “He Tasks Me”. ;D


Ed

[rossman40]

Like you I worked hard to get myself and the rifle ready for the 200yd shot and once I did that all my shots were 50yds and less. Last season kinda paid off because 4 out of 5 deer were shot over 150yds. Still haven't gotten my 200yd club ticket punched all though I did try one and pulled it like a rookie with buck fever. I do have the confidence to take neck shots at less then 100yds and my 150+yd headshot last year is becoming a gun tale.

I think knowing where to set up is hunting skill. Maybe if you are better at that then your shooting skills may not be as important. But then again going against a mature buck with some smarts he is not going to give you a easy shot if he can help it. I have found around here the deer do not think your much of a threat if your 200yds away and will stand there and look at you.

[cfvickers]

200+ yard shots come at the oddest times and the wierdest places if you are a wods hunter. My longest shot on a deer on record was a 225 yards shot with a 54 cal pushing a .451 XTP with 90 grains of pyrodex. In the woods, and a spot I didn't know was a clear shot till the deer walked into it. Honestly I didn't realize how far it was until I walked to it. I knew it was beyond 100 and I aimed at the very top of her shoulder, the bullet dropped about 8-10 inches or more and hit directly behind the front shoulder almost two low but the deer was DRT. It shouldn't even be a challenge for one of these MLs.

[jeremylong]

Good thread. Hunting terrain has allot to do with it, but I think every year I hear a hunting partner or me say the same thing. 45 yrds... thats it.... All that time and potential and there comes that deer at 45yards!!

BUT it would all be worth it for that one time, one season, that one big ole bruiser is out there at 200 and you confidently blow him off his feet! At that point, all the range time and effort from possibly years of shooting would be worth every second and every penny!

[ET]

Cfvickers

I agree that it shouldn’t be a challenge for a smokeless muzzle loader. But I also agree with Rossman40 who points out a key component/element is the developed skill of the Shooter.

Jeremylong

I fully agree it would also be worth it 1-time for all the time and effort put into preparing. But I wouldn’t refuse for a few times more if possible. ;D

Rossman40

I have also found deer almost seem cocky when they just stare at you over 200yds away.
I just keep hoping a good sized deer will be cocky enough at 200-yds away giving me that look “You can’t touch me” and I prove it wrong.

A tradition often enjoyed of a successful days hunt or the recovery of a downed deer that required a search is that toast of firewater. Normally but not always depending how ragged I feel will join in this tradition with just one tossed back. When I pull off that 200-yd connection you can bet I will break my rule (make an exception) and have a double to celebrate. You know gotta have one for my 10ML-II. ;D


Ed

[wilmsmeyer]

What a great thought provoking thread. I, like ET, have prepared for the worst (or best) cased scenario. Big buck in the wide open, far away. Yes, This is probably not your average situation but a possibility. 95% of all my ML kills (probably 75+ deer) have been under 100 Yds.

I guess it's a personality type issue. Wringing out all the details, what ifs, and combinations of situations. That's me. Last year I made my farthest Savage kill at 150 yds on a medium 8 pt that I thought was bigger. Not alot of time to size him up. A perfect 10 hole shot.

2-3 years ago I passed on a 210 yd shot because being 20 ft up a tree in a hang on stand using a shooting stick becomes the ultimate equalizer. You can have the best shooting gun in the world but without a benchrest it's useless IMO.

So, I agree with ET and all the others who responded. As a hunter, I probably would have almost the same success rate with a gun shooting a 5 inch group at 100 Yds as I do with my curent set-up

However, just incase the worst (best) case situation happens...and the stars are lined up just right....I'm ready. And it was very expensive!

[DBinNY]

It may have been expensive Wilms, but it was (and still is) fun. This thing is a far cry from the junk shotguns I used to hunt with. It's such a good feeling being over-prepared. Besides, all that accuracy comes in pretty handy when hunting woodchucks!

[dougedwards]

The same reason that I choose to purchase excellent but expensive glass to aid my poor old eyes as a rifle scope. Yes, a much less expensive scope will work just as well 98% of the time but there is always that chance that Bullwinkle will step out right at dark and I will be in great need of the best light gathering glass. It hasn't happened quite like that yet but I feel better if I am prepared for it.

Shooting at a 200 yard target has never hurt my 100 yard groups. In fact, a target at 100 yards seems rather close when compared to one at 200 yards and gives me a measure of confidence to feel that the target is not really way out there but easily within reach.

If I go to the trouble to take daily pills to suppress my human scent, wash my clothes in a carbon powder solution, hang them in the trees of the back yard for all the neighbors to see, spray myself with a hydrogen peroxide solution as well as all of my tree stands and get chigger infested while scouting through the brush, you know that I am going to at least be somewhat prepared to take a 200-250 yard shot if necessary. Heck, I practice shooting my compound bow from my back porch to a 70 yard target........just in case.

Doug

[dans]

I can shoot 200 yards but I want them so close that they catch on fire when I pull the trigger.

[boarhog]

Thinking back over the last 45 years, and some 200+ deer and hogs, I can remember only a handful that were harvested at much past 75 yards. Four or five out to 125 yards, and only two beyond 200. My longest shot was last season. A large doe at 284 lazered yards, with a Savage M-10, 7mm-08. My second longest shot was at 247 long steps. The rifle was a Hopkins and Allen 58 cal, under hammer, Deerstalker muzzleloader, with open sights. The load was a 260 gr round ball, a poly-patch, and 100 gr of FFG black powder. I made the shot offhand, and had time to kneel so I could look under the smoke cloud. I was almost as surprised as the deer, when it bucked and jumped out of the narrow lane opening I had to shoot through. I found it piled up only 10 yards from where it had been standing at the shot.

The rifle was very accurate, but I had never even tried a shot at paper beyond 100 yards. I was too young and dumb to realize that I never should have tried that shot! I held about a foot over the deer's back, so I was lucky, and the deer wasn't. It is hard to gain the maturity it takes to pass up those kinds of shots!
Boarhog

[pposey]

All true,,, my logest shot is 300 yards with a 270, that gun shot very very well, next 200 with a 7mm-08 and a 200 with an Italian made "Cabelas Brand" inline that would flat out drive nails with 100 grains pyrodex select and a .429 HP bullet in a green hornady sabot,,,, that was back when inlines were a newish fad and the ml2 wasn't even around,,, 2 of us were walking out of the woods down east in a wildlife refuge and there were 2 bucks wayyy out there in a field looking at us,, the other guy had a open sighted hawkin and I had my inline with a good burris 1.5-6,,, I walked out in the field about 20 feet, layed down and shot the smaller buck, "long spike" and let the 6 point run away. Watched the bullet hit the deer and he cowhopped a few yards and died,,, longest shot with the ml2 has been 150 maybe,,,, most have been 10-50 yards while stalking in heavy woods,,, thats why I have a 21 inch pacnor

[chuck41]

Sept 16, 2010 23:08:27 GMT -5 dans said:

I can shoot 200 yards but I want them so close that they catch on fire when I pull the trigger.

I'm with dans!! If you are too far away for the blood to splash on you you miss half the fun.

Hard to conceive of a shot at my lease of 200yds or more. My longest was about 125 yds, running. (More like jogging actually - - well walking really fast anyway) Most others were standing broadside at 20 - 100 yds. But you never know what tomorrow will bring so I'll zero a couple inches high at 100 just in case.

I don't worry 'bout smell though. Just wash with my Irish Spring, have beans for supper and brush with Colgate and I am good to go. I figure deer like to eat flowers, if I smell like one or the stuff they grow in they ought to like that.

[northny]

My bucks are usually killed in thick stuff..I cant recall killing one over 75 yards, and most of them less them 50 yards. (There was the one buck I shot with a 14" scoped contender at 7 feet from the tree I was in...sure glad I had the extra barrel length!)
Most does are taken in open fields. My two does and my sons one were all over 150 yards last year. Both coyotes were longer distances.

For me the key thing of shooting the ml II at 200 yards is the confidence boost. The shorter shots on bucks are never a gimme, but at least you are not worry about being able to make the shot.

[tar12]

Up until this year I hunted the "Interstate field".Shots ranged from point blank to as far as you were capable.All of my my 200-300 yd kills came from that field.You never knew where they would pop out so I positioned my stand to cover up to a 300 yd shot. I am going to miss that place as it changed ownership. I will be lucky to get 100 yd shot this season in the woods I will be hunting.Looks like I will be setting some hair on fire!

[spaniel]

Three reasons:
1) I hunt begged property, I take whatever scrap spots are left once the property owners take the good ones. Often these require longer shots.

2) These spots are 1.5-2hrs away, meaning I only get 1-2 days in the field with a gun during deer season each year. Depending on the year I am feeding 2-4 families. When you need to shoot 3-4 does in a morning, you can't be passing longer shots just because they are long.

3) Because I need to plan to shoot multiple deer in the same day, I often will take advantage of my ability to shoot 200-350 yards to position myself away from where the deer will actually be. More than once I have shot one doe in a group, and had the others stand there like nothing happened while I reload my ML and take out another from the same group. If I were within 100 yards, they'd be in the next county by then.

I like close shots as much as the next guy. If I've got my venison needs satisfied and am still hunting, I typically go afield with an iron sighted rifle to still hunt.

One of my favorite hunts ever was spotting a buck at 400 yards. It was just outside my comfort zone so I decided to stalk him, taking an hour to army crawl 400 yards through corn stubble. When I arrived thirty yards away from where I thought he was, I could not see him and figured he left. So when a group of does ran out at 212 yards, I nailed one. The others milled about, so I reloaded and nailed a second. I reloaded, stood up, took a few steps and the big 8-pointer flushed like a pheasant at my feet. I pegged him from under 20 yards. I went and GPS marked the does, returned to the buck, and saw another doe 338 yards away and shot her too. The buck was the only one to take a step after being shot. I was a lot more proud of Army crawling 400 yards for that buck than the 338 yd shot.

[Deleted]

These photos taken on two recent scouting trips should answer why I sight in at 200yds and do quite a bit of shooting at 300yds before I hit the field....
Zen

[whyohe]

for each person has their own reason. some may not have the hunting areas to justify 200+ shooting but some do it just to see if they can and for the challenge.

for me, i really havent shot my savage for 200 cause i dont hunt that far anymore. i use to be able to in the moutains but then i use a 30-06 there. for rifle i liek to know that if the shot present it self i can do it.

[Chris Champion]

Most of the places I hunt are fence rows on the edges of picked corn or bean fields The deer bedding areas are on adjacent property that I do not have permission to hunt on. Most of these fields are 250 to 300 yds wide and 1/4 mile long or longer. Before I had the Savage I would see alot of deer that come out in these fields right at dusk and never make it to slug gun range before dark. Since getting the Savage I've focused on 200+ yd shooting. Now even more so with the 45 cal, as soon as they step out in the open to feed they're in range.

[Harley]

It seems, by and large, that most of the posters are either looking for or satisfied with short-range shots while trying to be prepared for the possibility of an occasional longer shot. I've got the opposite mindset.

With ML season starting in GA in just two weeks and lasting only 7 days, I've been looking for a place to set my stand for a 300 yard shot. In the past two years I've routinely shot deer at 200+ yards and have one kill at 319 yards. My .45 Pac-Nor is so reliably accurate that I feel guilty shooting a deer at less than 200 yards. Of course, that's easy for me to say because I'm not a trophy hunter and I don't need the meat; my "trophy" is a well-placed shot at maximum range.

Our property is so burned by dry weather and 100+* temps that the food plots have nothing to offer a browsing deer. That leaves relatively close shots in the hardwoods. I'm seriously considering just shooting my bow for the remainder of the season, but it would be a shame not to hunt with the Savage after all the work in getting it tuned to the max. (Besides, I just love that rifle, love to look at it, love to touch it, etc. )

I hope this doesn't sound like an elitist or snobbish position; it's just why I hunt.

Harley

[Richard]

While unrelated to my Savage ML, I had also experienced a similar situation on a combination Elk/mule deer hunt in Idaho a few year back. I practiced profusely with my 7mmMag at distances out to 300 yards and had taped elevation settings out to 400 yards on my 2.5 x 10 VariX III. As fate would have it, my elk came out of the black timber some 45 yards away where I had to shoot in between branches and subsequently hit him mid-section, but in the spine..........which broke his back and a .357 put the finishing touch on him. I was using a Nosler Ballistic tip which would have been good at the longer distances I was expecting but really blew up at close range .
On the other hand after the wilderness hunt for elk, we did a ranch plains hunt for the mule deer. Here my preparation really paid off. A 400 yard shot was made on a head-on mulie. Knowing the drop, I put the bullet square in the neck as he turned his head sideways for a "band-flop". You just never know
Richard

[cfvickers]

I guess my desire to shoot further comes from the fact I have passed on most of the bigger deer I have seen because I was not confident in the shot. I would never use a hale mary on a very nice mature buck without the confidence that I was capable of the shot. Most of the rifles I shoot are unquestionably capable, but I am not always. So I practice shooting further then build my confidence on a doe or two before I will ever feel that confidence on a big buck. We all want to be capable because you do not know what situation you will be presented with when you go to the woods.

[rangeball]

Sept 21, 2010 16:55:56 GMT -5 Harley said:

I hope this doesn't sound like an elitist or snobbish position; it's just why I hunt.

Harley

Not at all... everyone has their own reasons why and how they hunt and I see nothing wrong with yours

[ozark]

I have done most of my hunting in country that is made up of hills and hollows. Often the shot is up or down a steep slope that drastically effects trajectory. Sometimes it is across a hollow that has steep sides and without a range finder distance is a guess at best. Often shooting across a hollow (Steep Draw) the animal may also be at a higher or lower level. All this makes for leaning a lot on past experience. Example using a .22 Caliber rifle to kill squirrel which have been treed by your dog your rifle needs to be zeroed about two inches low on level ground at the distance the squirrel normally sits. My point is that taking a shot over 200 yards at a deer depends not only on knowing the drop and zero but terrain factors as well. Hill country hunters have more calculating to do than hunters shooting across those flat bean and corn fields. Posted just to provide food for thoughts.

[spaniel]

Well again, not my Savage (yet!), but each of the past 3 years I have gone on an elk/muley hunt in Montana that, while DIY, is still not cheap and burns more than half my vacation for the year. The first year after seeing no muley bucks I finally saw one at 438 yds; after practicing to 880 yds with my 300WM it was a chip shot. Two hours later I tagged my 6X6 elk with a 683 yd shot; he had us visually pinned down from above and we could not manuever closer.

The day before I'd had that same bull at 80 yards just inside the black timber but could not get a clear shot. I would have been just as proud of taking him at 80 yds, but because I put the work in I got to fill my tag and have my first elk meat.

It's easy to say close range only when you hunt locally and/or have a lot of days afield. Unless you truly don't care about filling your tags, longer shots are an asset to have in your back pocket.

[jeremylong]

Sept 21, 2010 16:55:56 GMT -5 Harley said:

It seems, by and large, that most of the posters are either looking for or satisfied with short-range shots while trying to be prepared for the possibility of an occasional longer shot. I've got the opposite mindset.

With ML season starting in GA in just two weeks and lasting only 7 days, I've been looking for a place to set my stand for a 300 yard shot. In the past two years I've routinely shot deer at 200+ yards and have one kill at 319 yards. My .45 Pac-Nor is so reliably accurate that I feel guilty shooting a deer at less than 200 yards. Of course, that's easy for me to say because I'm not a trophy hunter and I don't need the meat; my "trophy" is a well-placed shot at maximum range.

Our property is so burned by dry weather and 100+* temps that the food plots have nothing to offer a browsing deer. That leaves relatively close shots in the hardwoods. I'm seriously considering just shooting my bow for the remainder of the season, but it would be a shame not to hunt with the Savage after all the work in getting it tuned to the max. (Besides, I just love that rifle, love to look at it, love to touch it, etc. )

I hope this doesn't sound like an elitist or snobbish position; it's just why I hunt.

Harley

I guess if I hunted in GA where the deer didnt get real big I would too have the same goal I guess. Kinda like ground hog hunting only bigger :-)

[Harley]

Jeremy, now you've ruined it all for me; from now on, I'll be thinking "ground hog" when I sight on a doe. . You're right, though; we've been trophy managing for almost 10 years and have killed only one buck that would qualify for B&C.

Harley