My Lesson with Recoil

[ET]

To most recoil is the resulting kick to the shoulder from the reaction of the bullet being launched from the rifle. Here a basic Law of Physics applies. Some would probably think, Okay I know that and can handle a good kick to the shoulder absorbing the impact, no big deal.

Now my question here would be, Can you control the recoil movement?
In other words how well can you control the rearward movement so that it closely follows the same direction/path every time? When you think how close the barrel position has to be in respect to the previous shot on the bench releasing the bullet to place the next bullet with the previous one kind of gives one a wakeup call, as it did for me.

Shooting small caliber rifles up to say a lower velocity 30-caliber rifle with medium weight has never really been a problem with recoil for me. Lightly snug it to my shoulder and allowing that shoulder to take the recoil movement. I could shoot decent groups this way and usually hit what I was aiming at. Actually I was a little cocky at one time with my shooting abilities using the above-mentioned calibers.

Then came the smokeless 10ML-II that gave me a rude awakening about recoil and it’s affects. Kind of destroyed that cocky feeling really quick. Sure I could handle the kick from the recoil with my current method of shooting but my groups suffered for trying to use my original method of holding the rifle. Then also for a short while I developed a slight flinch that really added to my accuracy problem.

Being a stubborn individual not easy subjective to quitting I had to reassess what was happening with the heavier recoil and what I could do about it. Well there are 2-things I can do here. Reduce the level of recoil with a better butt pad and addition of recoil reducer. The second is re-evaluating and improve my shooting form. The 1st part of addressing some recoil reduction was easy. Trying to retrain the body to adapt to another shooting form was tough and only by focusing on my form as well as my POA did I finally manage better results. To make a long narrative shorter it’s no longer my shoulder that just moves but more of my upper body is involved moving in unison during heavier recoil.

For improved shooting form I will leave that to Rifleman who has written articles in the Tips & Hints section and of course our resident Ozark with his years of experience. They are the knowledgeable ones to teach/help in this area.

What I’m trying to express here from my limited experience is that heavier recoil can have a major affect on your shooting accuracy and needs to be considered, as a factor when developing a load with the 10ML-II. Otherwise you may never know how accurate your load really is. Hope this is helpful in some way to someone who’s new getting into the heavier recoil arena.

Ed

[cfvickers]

I learned about heavy recoil and how to ignore it with a .300 mag and later a 404 jefferies. everything you say is true. When I first got that 300 I could not shoot a 3 inch group at 100 and blamed the gun for a LONG time. Now I can shoot 190 grain bullets at 3000fps literally in the same hole. When I was a teenager I used to shoot a 404 that belonged to a friend of my dad and loved it so he always let me check the sighting , it was to expensive for an every day shooter to shoot. the projectiles alone were about a dollar a piece then, but he was shooting large nosler partitions I think. Now I can put 3 500 grain round nose bullets into 1 inch at 100 yards and 2 inches at 200 yards from my 45/70 encore doing 1900FPS. this thing is all synthetic and weighs about 7lbs loaded with scope, its brutal. I have learned to ignore the fact it is going to knock the snot out of me and just concentrate on hold and trigger pull. Had to push the scope forward a hair to keep it from giving me a black eye, your shoulder really can give that much even when it is already forward quite a bit. It would literally hurt a woman or smaller man/boy. I am not big but I am thick chested and know where to have it on my shoulder. keep a tight grip on the forend stuffed firmly against the shoulder and don't worry about it kicking you. get a good recoil pad and wear an external pad, whatever keeps you from flinching and helps you hold the same way every time like he says here.

[spoonover]

Ed, just got my Rem mod. 7 switch barrel fitted with a 50 cal smokeless 28'' twist. First load, 300 Remington(67gr H4198). Test fire was free hand and got scope bite first boom. To stop the bite I have to hold on to the 6.6# 50 for dear life, groups are never better than 3'' @ 100 yards! My form has to change for this to work at all. I am trying to blame it on a dirty bore and with all the plastic I got out of it that might have affect (only 19 loads), butt I am sure it is my doing? Rick

[Dave W]

Excellent point Ed! I agree completely and have long wondered if all the problems people have getting the Savage to shoot is more operator error than gun related. Some people just cannot shoot a gun that kicks. If a person is anticipating the recoil and not focused on the target, accuracy is not going to be great. I use a hard hold method similar to cfvickers and I have usually had good luck getting nearly anything I have fed my gun to group under 1.5MOA out to 200yds.

[dave d.]

Ed excellent post. Recoil is a big factor shooting these guns and making more new shooters aware of this might help alot. I use a past pad every shot down range and when I get home i never have a sore shoulder. My custom .45 in my avatar has some weight to it but basically has no recoil pad and with my shooting pad it is comfortable. Tame your recoil and you will shoot better.

[ozark]

From reading posts from members of this forum I have come to believe that most are above average marksman. As mentioned recoil is one of the more difficult fundamentals of shooting to master. It is the basic reason people can fire a .22 caliber more accurately than the ML. A firm consistent hold that includes the cheekweld and consistent shoulder placement of the buttplate is a necessity. Since recoil begins prior to the bullet exiting the muzzle one can visualize the importance of consistently taking the same position and hold. Heavy recoil increases the tendency to shoulder, flinch or yank on the trigger. It takes some guts to hold and aim knowing that you are going to ge kicked and still not anticipate or alter solid technique until the bullet is at the taarget. You can use the mind over matter principal and avoid dodging, yanking, jerking, tensing up or flinching. I have shot a boxcar load of high powered rifle ammo and I am still capable of flinching. It requires focused concentration and determination not to goof up to be a consistent shooter of hard kicking rifles. If you have fear of the scope cutting you face then that fear can lead to poor performance. Get everything right, know its right and then press the trigger when the sights are alligned properly. That and nothing else is the trademark of accurate shooting. ET is correct and I am confident that he has discovered the solution and will apply it. Yes, I stilll sometimes flinch but that just proves that I am human, don't like pain and imperfect. Good luck shooters.

[cfvickers]

I laugh at people who make fun of others who put a pad on their shoulder to shoot. Most refer to it as a P**** pad and giggle in the corner as the padded individual shoots. But when it is their turn, look at their groups and compare. Also most of them have never fired a gun that seriously recoils. I appreciate you posting this subject ET it deserves some discussion. I am interested in hearing how others do it as well, obviously a lot of us have learned to handle heavy recoil. I am sure there are more ways than we all know of individually.

Ozark, I catch myself flinching all the time when shooting off hand, You have gotten me started practicing my off hand techniques, with a few threads you posted on the matter. that is when I tend to flinch far more often, and when the body is more prepared for heavy recoil. It doesn't hurt near as bad, but I have still had difficulty getting past it. I try to practice some with my .480 ruger barrel on the Encore as a pistol, that thing will make you flinch as well. also stout.

If any of you reload, start with heavy loads in your biggest comfortable rifle to work up to the severe recoil of the 10ML and the likes.

[ET]

Spoonover

I’ve been lucky not to get a facial beauty mark by a scope but have had my glasses cocked a few times. ;D
There are also other factors that affect performance as you have touched on and my thread was only centered on recoil.
Also I found that not everyone always uses the same exact technique for heavier recoiling rifles. I believe that is because we are not physically built the same and have different areas of strengths. The one commonality I find is really snug fitting the stock into your shoulder creating some muscle tension response. I don’t mean a death grip snug but a good hold of the stock into, not just on your shoulder. Even though I didn’t touch on stock fitting to an individual this too can make a big difference IMO.

I am happy to see others chime in as to how they handle recoil thereby acknowledging the affect of heavy recoil. Guys Thanks for responding and helping with this condition.

Good luck on your quest to start taming that recoil beast. Once you have more control of recoil you will find you have more control on group size and accuracy.

Ed

[ozark]

In all the marksmanship units rifle shooters wore a 10X shooting coat that had a leather padded shoulder and elbows. We also used a heavy leather glove on the left hand and placed it against the sling and swivel on the forearm. With these two items recoil was not a real problem. I am curious as to why hunters and target shooters don't use these. The military shooters are not a bunch of wimps but intelligent enough to use what is available to tame that accuracy destroying recoil. Anyone know where these items are available? The Riflemaan kept his glove and I would bet still uses it. Ben

[bigmoose]

Shooting is supposed to be fun and you can't have fun if the rifle your shooting is beating you up. There are lots of ways to control recoil, lighter loads, shoulder pads and sleds, Each shooter, should adjust to his needs, have fun don't make it a macho contest.
Everyone is different, I keep going back to that gal Cindy, she shot a 500 Nitro Express with great skill......I'll pass on the 500.

[rossman40]

I used one of the shooting coats and it was like almost cheating. The canvas or heavy cordura it was made from was so stiff (almost like they starched it) once you got into position it was like having external bracing or a exoskeleton. You had all these buckles to adjust but once you got it right you could boost your score 25%.

Some are all leather and flat out a sweat box and the glove Ozark talks about are just as stiff and probly weigh as much as the coat. The ones we used for the left hand was more like a big mitten.

I have had a couple shirts from Bob Allen Sportswear that have a padded shoulder. One that I have from Winchester has a removable shoulder pad that goes in from the inside.

[bigmoose]

Rossman,

All good idea's I use a past shoulder pad, from a 470 down, I enjoy shooting big boomers, but age has limited the number of shots I can fire.
It is great fun, touching off the 400gr. Buster Bullet, 70grs of Benchmark, gives it the same numbers as a 404 Jefferies, so all the folks that have a 50 cal. Savage, have an Elephant gun....As young folks would say.....thats neat. why would that matter to anyone.....don't have an answer. maybe I'm just a 76 year old kid.

[rossman40]

Just don't make the mistake of the guy taking the foam pillow to kill the recoil on his slug gun. Once the foam colapsed the scope cut he had was about 20 stitches. At least the foam pillow helped as a compress to slow the bleeding.

[bigmoose]

OUCH....that had to hurt, 20 stitches, that half moon will be there forever.

[dougedwards]

Another thing that I consider is the fact that my POI may shift somewhat as I transition from shooting from a weighted cradle to mounting and shooting the rifle from only my shoulder. This could also be the case when hunting clothes are substituted for a padded jacket. I am somewhat recoil sensitive and just don't enjoy shooting even the lightest loads many times in one shooting session so a weighted shooting rest is a must for me. However after discovery of an effective load I will shoot from the shoulder right before season but since a free handed shot is unlikely for me I always use some sort of a shooting rail for stability.

It is no easy task to learn to shoot these heavy recoiling rifles in the field only because of how we practice with them. I also don't ever remember feeling recoil after any shot at a game animal. This has led me to believe that less bench practice is best once the hunter has discovered a reliably accurate hunting load since the practicing that we seem to do is unlike our shooting situation in the field. This of course, would not apply as much to those who practice from shooting bags.

Doug

[pposey]

I usta shoot some heavy 300 grain speer loads in my ml2 .50 cal,,, as said above I had to learn to absorb the recoil and except it not fight it, had no problems then,,, then I smashed my shoulder, can't take it now hince the eternal search for low recoiling loads for the .45 shortie,,,, right now 35 grains 4759 and a non mag 209 is ruling the roost with a 200xtp,,,,

worst lesson I ever had on recoil was flopping down on my belly to take a long prone shot at a hog with one of my mega 300 grain speer loads, didn't have the gun mounted to the shoulder well, way to low. head was to far forward from being prone, and I about broke my nose when I fired,,, hit the hog way back and high in the spine and had to run him down and finish off with my blood going everywhere,,, I think I bled more than the hog to that point.

[12ptdroptine]

I had a H&R ultra slugger thumbhole 12 ga slug gun...HAD.... The geometry of the stock mad it a real kicker...Plus it didnt have the weight in the butstock like the non th stock... While trying to sight it in I got a couple stitches tween the eyeballs..... As I said HAD.......Ruined me from slug guns for awhile

[wilmsmeyer]

Good post. I have shot high recoiling loads for a long time. A few things that help me may help you.

One: Have a good recoil pad and long eye relief
two: KNOW that you will be belted but not hurt i.e. scope driven into your eye
three: accept all this....you are shooting a powerful weapon...it will kick.
four: Practice, with no fear, the SLOW gentile travel of a trigger. As the gun goes off, appreciate that you did not flinch and appraciate the results.

Sounds easier said then done but it is not that hard to do. I promoise that if you are not getting hurt, you will learn to enjoy the pounding a gun can give you. Sounds sadistic...but I'm serious. As you accept the recoil...realize you'll be fine due to recoil managemnet with the pad, rest and form....you will settle in to a good form.

I am nowhere near the expert that Ozark is...never had one bit of training. My only incentive was good performance. One can only measure the performance of their weapon by the groups they fire. Those groups can only be their best if you are ready to accept the recoil as one of the variables in testing.

I now find the recoil of fast loads both a rewarding aspect of shooting a pwoerful gun as well as a challenge to my own feelings about making this work. I have not been hurt yet and my confidence only rises as I shoot this gun.

It has shown itself more competent then I can imagine.

[ozark]

Great thread and some great comments. I can add one element that can help one prevent flinching. Wear ear muffs or ear plugs. That extra loud boom will cause one to flinch expecting it. Just as a clap of thunder near you causes you to jump. Granted the bullet is gone when the noise reaches you but expecting it is closely related to that trigger finger. Ben

[rangeball]

I have never felt recoil when shooting at game. Since I got my Lead Sled DFT, I no longer feel recoil at the bench

[dougedwards]

Sept 15, 2010 14:03:02 GMT -5 ozark said:

Great thread and some great comments. I can add one element that can help one prevent flinching. Wear ear muffs or ear plugs. That extra loud boom will cause one to flinch expecting it. Just as a clap of thunder near you causes you to jump. Granted the bullet is gone when the noise reaches you but expecting it is closely related to that trigger finger. Ben

A couple of years ago Steve White posted that he wears the Walker Game Muffs to shoot and hunt. I got me a pair and am able to hear every word spoken by all shooters at a public range until a shot rings out then it totally shuts off. The Muffs allow me to talk to others without any manipulation of the volume controls. Agreed.....I can't imagine shooting such loud and harsh recoiling weapons without the best ear protection. The sound alone would knock me off my bench.

Doug

[zakjak221]

When shooting at a deer, there is NO recoil. ;D

Mark

[ozark]

I shot book loads when I had my MLII. I didn't notice exceptionally hard recoil. Nothing at all like the 3.5 Inch 870 Remington express turkey load. I got rid of that thing because no turkey was worth the punishment. I took the butt plate off and filled the cavity with log chain links and it didn't stop that mule from kicking me. That thing was brutal IMO.

[zakjak221]

Ozark,

Your exactly right!!
When I used to use a slug gun in Illinois the 3" slugs would rock your world.
Almost anything after that is a treat to shoot now.

Mark

[DBinNY]

You can ignore the woodchuck in the photo but note the recoil pad. It is a kick-eez grind to fit model and it is the best thing I've done to the gun to tame recoil. No big deal with hunting clothes on in the NY deer season but the 300 gr Remingtons were turning my shoulder black and blue when wearing only a T-shirt during the summer with the stock pad. It made a huge difference. It also increased the length of pull (I did not shorten the stock) to perfection for my 6' 4" frame.

[cfvickers]

I almost always fold a towel up and place it between my shoulder and the butt. My dad was laughing at me one time because I was shooting a 6.5x55. I said "sit down here and get a good hold and look down the scope, Now watch the reticle bounce a half to 3/4 inch on the target" He saw it and said he had not noticed that before. I told him he was pulling the trigger rather than squeezing then. I then placed a towel between his shoulder and the butt, the bounce was gone completely and he was sold on my way. If you can measure or have a graph style target and can see how much your reticle is bouncing, that is how much you are adding to your group size by not using a pad. So recoil isn't the only reason to use a good pad on your shoulder, and it doesn't have to be expensive or cost anything, as I said, I use a folded kitchen towel.

[dougedwards]

In the course to discover a reliable and accurate load we usually must shoot many times and that can take it's toll on the shooter. If the shooter is able to discipline himself only to focus on the target and squeeze the trigger by suprising himself with the shot he may eventually develop into a very good bench shooter. This brings us to another question. Should we enjoy this activity? I mean there certainly is some gratification in the findings of some good, workable loads as well as the devopment of shooting skills but why would we continue to experiment further with high recoiling loads that rock our teeth if it isn't an enjoyable activity? Because we can?

If the gratification of successful shooting exceeds the pain on the shoulder then I do understand why we would pursue such an activity. But unless that is the case I would suspect that we would shoot our hard recoiling but accurate load seldom and choose lighter loads to shoot for fun. In the 50 cal Savage I found a very accurate load in 75 grains of 10X under a 300 grain BO. That load was fast and super accurate and I seldom shot that load from the bench but saved it for hunting until it almost knocked me off my feet from a treestand.

Yes we can gut it out and test our fortitude by shooting high recoiling loads but Ed's originial question still stands. Are we able to control the amount and direction of the resistance for each shot that we take with these harsh, teeth shattering loads? If we can seem to hold the rifle with the same force against our shoulders and mount it exactly the same way each time we shoot then we might have a chance at some consistent results. If not this severe recoil can and will work against us.

I choose to push through the pain and discipline myself not to anticipate the thrust to come in a quest to discover a fast, accurate load but after that is found I also choose to shoot it seldom. After shooting the smokeless muzzleoader I sometimes will shoot my bull barrelled Rem700 chambered in .243 to allow the Pac Nor barrel time to cool. After the shot it feels like I am still waiting for the recoil to come. It almost feels as if I am playing with a toy of some sort. Shooting the light load is fun but for some reason somewhat less gratifying than dealing with the heavy explosion. Go figure.

Doug

[chuck41]

Anticipation of recoil and blast will definitely destroy accuracy. I am 240#, 6'2" tall and I find a hard recoiling rifle to be very unpleasant to shoot. Proper hearing protection makes a big difference, a good shoulder padding either in the form of a good recoil absorbing pad or shoulder padding in a shooting jacket helps a bunch, and reducing the recoil by using lighter bullets when appropriate makes all the difference in the world!

I too don't really notice recoil when shooting at a deer. A single shot at a deer is one thing, 20 or 50 punching holes in paper is a whole nother story. My first range experience with the ML10-II-50 using book loads with 250 and 300gr XTPs left me with a sore black and blue shoulder for a week and money burning a hole in my pocket looking for a good recoil pad. Fortunately I already had electronic muffs that allow you to hear normal conversation while blocking out gunshots at the range.

A Limbsaver found a new home before my second range trip and I love it. Then going to the 40cal with its 200gr bullets now makes my gun a dream to shoot at any velocity whether its one shot or 50.

Heavy recoil is a distraction to even the best shooters, and a total disaster for the young or new shooter. There is just too many good solutions available to put up with the distraction. Many of those hints have been listed by the previous posters on this thread. Tame the mule-kicking habits of the gun and you will see your results improve and the fun increase! Even more, never ever let a new or young shooter shoot a gun that the recoil is going to be an unpleasant experience to them. It will rob them of enthusiasm and establish bad habits that will be really hard to break later.

An unashamed recoil wimp.

[herman]

My shooting buddie Bill, and I shot at a public range for many years before we went to the wildlife club.
Always thought this was a pretty good one.
A fellow would come in and set up fire a 3 shot group which was fair or good then his shots would get bigger and bigger.He would allways ask what happened to his gun.Bill or I would say the recoil is getting to you.9 out of 10 would say no I can shoot this thing all day without a problem.
If you have never shot at a public range you should try it.

[ET]

Many good additional points made such as noise factor being one of them. I automatically wear ear protection at the range and never even thought about this contributing factor.

But for enduring discomfort or some pain from recoil with a heavier recoiling rifle the only reason I put with it because of a specific need for that rifle. And I have to have a specific level of accuracy and consistency with it before I actually hunt with it. The only way I know how to get that proficiency is practice at the range. Not one outing before hunting season but numerous outings during the year before hunting season.

I believe in the adage of “If you don’t use it you loose it”.
There have been a few years that my set range limited has been out to 150yds instead of my normal set limit of 200yds. Thinking and trying to do some things I could easily do 15-years ago has caused a few strains on shoulders and arm muscles that have thrown my shooting of heavier recoiling rifles out of whack momentarily.
Yeah mistreating or abusing a body that has aged some with other physical activities can put a damper on shooting skills. My problem here is not readily admitting my current physical abilities and still won’t accept this age thing. ;D



Ed