bullet debates

[deadeer]

Of course the bullet debates are never ending, so I almost hate to bring them up again, but... Likely the 250 sst or shockwave usually brings up the most controversy, but how has the 250 bonded shockwave done for anyone? I had one bad experience with a 250 SW several years ago, with a shoulder hit, and several DRT with a spine or neck shot, all with smokepoles, not smokeless. I have one season now behind me with the Savage, 2 dead deer with 300Rems, and one with the BO. I did not like the Rems at 2500fps, no exit with 70 and 30 yd shots. The BO was a pass thru breaking both shoulders. All deer were dead no doubt. But, always wanting more! I have a killer load with the 325ftx and BO to use, but am interested in a 250 gr at high speed. The Barnes do not shoot very good at speed for me, but the SW's do. So I wanted to hear any results with the 250 bonded SW at high speed if anyone has some. Possibly some load info too. Thanks, Jay.

[Dave W]

Not hair tests but the ballistic gel tests in the Tips by thelefthand may be interesting to you.
dougva.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Savage&thread=3370

[ET]

Deadeer

Even though I have some 250-BSW bullets I have yet to tag a deer with them.
My experience has been with the hard-nose 250-SW & SST. They do fragment and knowing this I only take boiler room shots. All my kill shots have been under 100-yds so I can’t report as to the level of fragmentation after 100-yds.
As for the new soft nose 250-SST I have yet to get them to respond to the level of accuracy the hard nose version gives me so I haven’t tried them yet on a deer.

As for velocity I’m around 2300fps book load (best accuracy) that has more than enough killing power out to my set limitation of 200yds. With my scope set for POI at 1-3/4” high at 100yds I’m 4-1/2” low at 200yds. The scope cross hair never leaves the deer’s body.

At one point I will admit I was looking at increasing the velocity for a flatter trajectory but found out the recoil was harder to control and my accuracy suffered some for the additional 250gr bullet speed.
So far I have been fortunate that all my deer kills with the 10ML-II have been 1-shot 1-kill and all have been recovered at less than 100-yds with the above mentioned bullets used. It does the job for me that I need done to the level I desire.


Ed

[rangeball]

Al has a cut-away pic of the bonded shockwave, it's jacket is much thicker than the standard shockwave/sst. I would think on game performance would be very similar to the BO.

[edge]

Just to add to what ET wrote on the 250 SST.

Here is a post I did on the old board:

dougva.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Savage&action=display&thread=1721

I would not hesitate to use the SST / SW.....but close range I would also aim for the boiler room if possible.....BUT if that shot is not there I AM still pulling the trigger

edge.

[wilmsmeyer]

Here we go again....

1st of all the jacket on a bonded shockwave is NOWHERE near as heavy as a Barnes Original. The few I've shot and recovered in dirt show all the weight shedding characteristics of the SST. Yes, I was shooting them very fast (2700) and impacts were at the 100 yd line. The lead absolutely adheres to the jacket. I found shards of copper covered with smeared lead. Nothing like a BO.

Something you may try in the 250 class, if the coppers don't shoot, is the nosler partitions. Not a great BC but if you are inside 200 yds it just doesn't make a material difference on a the vital zone of a whitetail. The nose will shed up close but the rear will drive straight through any deer alive and break everything on the way through.

I like to aim at a deer at whatever angle it gives me and imagine a 3-D view to the vitals. Then I like to pull the trigger knowing that almost 100% of the mass of my projectile is going to perforate, separate and rip the organs I'm after. I could care less if it expands because we shoot large caliber bullets. A .243 bullet that doubles in size would be "perfect" to those that like big expantion. Well, .45 is already there. That's a very substantial wound for a whitetail to shake off...at any speed...or lack of.

Bullet debates are back! Deer season is close! Everyone is coming back to life again. I'm all for fragging woodchucks and all against fragging a deer which is about 1500% larger then a woodchuck.

JMO...which hasn't changed in many many years. The dozens upon dozens of deer that have experienced the humane demise handed out by my bullet choices should be thanking me from deer heaven for making their earthly exit very quick and painless.

[deadeer]

Wilms, I have read before that you used the 250TMZ, did you have to knurl or do anything special to get them to shoot? I have read where some guys were having luck doing it, but I never tried yet. I hunt 90% open fields, so the sky is the limit on range. My gun shoots the 458's extremely well, likely due to a very loose barrel. But as you know the recoil of high speed 300-325 gr bullets is tough, that's why I was asking about the 250's. Just looking for greener grass.
Jay

[Al]

fisrt pic shows the SST's, althou it may look different in the pic, the jacket thickness is the same on both bonded and SST's/SW's.

second pic are all .458's and 4th from left is a BO, jacket thickness is around .035 all the way around.

[zakjak221]

Nice cross section of bullets,Al.
My experience has been negative with the SST bullets (250 gr)
With no blood trails or exit wounds, It cost me a deer one year.
IMO 300 gr bullets are where its at with the BO being the top of the heap.
I've used 300 Rem's,XTP & Speer gold dots as well with good results.
My sons use 250 gr XTP's in their T/C Encores and get great performance/results.
With all that I've read and experienced though, the BO will not give you any surprises and is accurate out to long ranges.

Mark

[wilmsmeyer]

Deadeer,

I did knurl the TMZ's. I also never got awesome accuracy, just very good accuracy at 100 yd (1 1/2" - 2") and acceptable accuracy at 200 yds (5-6") I hunt and don't compete for score....except against a deer and they have all lost.

I would like to add something to what zakjak221 said. He said the BO "will not give you any surprises". That one sentence says everything to me. Yes, there are scores of guys out there with a good record using pistol bullets. Maybe they are just excellent marksmen and always chose the archery angle. Maybe a little lucky. Probably excellent woodsmen. I new a guy in the Catskills that killed every deer he shot at with one shot using a .222 rem and 50 gr soft points. He was all of the above.

No surprises. BO's and coppers will give you no surprises when you pound a shoulder at 20 yds at 2500 fps...or 2800-2900 fps using the 45 and the 195 BX. No surprises.

With all the sabot choices, I believe everyone could get just about any bullet to shoot adequately for deer hunting at practical ranges.

Zakjak221....that was a great way to put it....No surprises. I like it.

[pposey]

I killed several deer with the plain jane 250sst, all died real quick, ribs, high shoulder/spine, low shoulder, all had some sort of exit wound, all had some jacket left in the wound, usually under the far skin, I only pushed it to 2300fps though,, shot one at 12 feet, high shoulder, hit the shoulder blade/took out 5 inches of spine and the core exited out the other shoulder,,, deer went from hauling butt to flopped real fast.

My fav .50 cal bullet was the .451 speer flat point in 300 grain though, I know it was a .451 which usually isn't good but they shot great for me in the MMP12s

[rangeball]

Thanks for posting the pics again Al. Obviously I needed a refresher. I could have sworn the bonded jacket was thicker...

[artjr338wm]

After having listened to for decades and on occasion participated in the never ending bullet performance debate, I have come to believe this debate exposes a potentially unhealthy fixation many hunters suffer from. That is a fixation on demanding a unrealistic level of accuracy out of our MLs that in the end cause us to not use a bullet who's design gives it a near 99% fail safe in its ability to quickly and cleanly kill a deer all because it shoots BTW 1.5-2" groups at 100yrds.

I have this opinion because for over 20yrs I was left with no other option but that in my accuracy when using foster slugs or sabot slugs. Even today using the best production slug gun ever made using the best sabot ammo out there I can not CONSISTENTLY get my Browning A-Bolt slug gun to shoot a group better than 1.5" at 100yrds.

I admittedly had to put forth a higher level of effort to get Barnes Spit Fires and TMZs to shoot well out of my 10ML-II than any other bullet I ever tried, but if the truth be known it was not all that much. But some months ago when I was going over all my S-Fire and TMZ saved targets I was struck with a rather stark reality:
Fully 95%+ of all my saved groups were well with in a level of accuracy that I could with complete confidence take shots at deer out to 200yrds. It was only because of my almost obsessive desirer to obtain groups under 3" with the S-Fires and TMZs at 200yrds, did I continue to experiment with sabot types (there are three now, one from Harvester and two from MMP) and larger ODs from knurling

In the end I succeeded and in doing so, I had a great time doing one of my most loved past times, shooting. As I have posted here in the past, the No#1 reason I bought my 10ML-II was it would give me a chance to do allot of shooting, and thankfully it did just that.

One other problem unique to we 10ML owners that no non-smokeless ML owner ever has to deal with is this: We 10ML owners are guilty of constantly firing what are essentially pistol bullet's designed for pistol velocities to rifle velocities and then we are surprised when they fail. SSTs, SWs, XTPs, and other dedicated hand gun and non-smokeless ML bullets were never designed to nor should they be expected to perform at speeds much above 2350fps let alone 2500-2700fps as allot of us commonly push them to. From my point of view why have a ML that can safely push a bullet to above 2400fps and NOT do so? That makes about as much sence as buying a 300wm and loading it down to .308 velocoties.

I have been a member here for long enough to know when it comes to the 10ML-II and speeds above 2300 fps and close shots under 100yrds, the only two bullet types I am aware of that have a near 100% reliability when it comes to getting to and destroying a deer's heart and or lungs no matter what it has to go trough first, the Barnes "O", the S-Fire, TMZ, and the new T-EZ have no peer IMHO. Bullets like the Thor's or the Lehigh's even though they are excellent performers, IMHO thay are simply take offs of the Barnes all copper ML bullets.

This year and every subsequent year until I run out of them I will be hunting with a 245 grain Spit Fire knurled up to .4535" using the factory yellow sabot pushed to 2650 fps, or the 290TMZ pushed to around 2350fps. I chose these bullets over my Barnes "Os" for one reason only: COST. The Barnes "Os" cost me about $1 each W/O sabot. The S-Fires/TMZs cost me about .54c.


My only problem now is I made the mistake of shooting some 250grn TMZs I knurled up to .454" and used the newer blue Barnes supplied sabot and damned if thay don't shoot just as good as the S-Fires for me. Except I can not get them for $16 per 30 like I did my S-Fires and 290TMZs, more like $25 for 20.

[rbinar]

8-)All I have to say on this is: "Those who think they know everything on this subject are particularly aggravating to those of us who do". ;D

Me thinks my mind had a collision with another bullet post, maybe I have a concussion?

[edge]

[bigmoose]

IMHO if you want a bullet that will penetrate deeply and hold together the Barnes 290gr TMZ, shot sabotless is a great bullet and is the most accurate, [Flat Based]
If you are after large game [Elk on up] the 300 and 350 gr barnes bullet W/Sabot is a great penetrator.
All of the bullets mentioned above, the Barnes O and others are sure deer killers, but if you hit a big bone on a large animal they will blow apart.
In my penetration test the Barnes O, weighed 146.8 after being shot into my test medium. the Barnes 290, 287.8, the Barnes X bullet, lost zero weight.
This may be meaningless W.D.M. Bell used a .275 to kill 1100 plus Elephants,can any of you folks shot like Karamojo Bell, needless to say I can't, never could[ extra large smile]

[spaniel]

Oh dear. C'mon guys, bullet arguments by guys claiming to have the definitive word on bullet performance on deer after shooting 3 of them into a dirt pile have driven me from lesser boards. I still have a lot to learn from here, please let me stay ;D

#1, I think people index far, FAR too much on this. In the roughly 130-150 big game animals I have taken, I have only ONCE seen a bullet put into the chest and fail to bring the animal down in an acceptable distance (Barnes bullet out of a 12-gauge slug gun that exploded on the exterior of the shoulder blade without penetrating -- confirmed when I later took the deer). If you hit an animal through both lungs, unless it is a .223 FMJ that animal is going DOWN and down pretty quickly. ML bullets create big wound channels even with minimal expansion. Remember that a deer can cover 200 yds on adrenaline alone with no need for lungs. Last year I sent a 325 FTX through the front of an alerted buck from MAYBE 10 yds (the smoke reached him), destroying his heart and lungs. Bullet performed beautifully, recovered in the back ham with good expansion and weight retention. That deer covered well over 100 yds before expiring just from the shock of the gun going off that close and cloud of smoke hitting him. Now when I shoot unalerted deer at 200+ yds, I have yet to have one take a step. They just fall over. They are not scared by a close proximity shot into the "death run".

Now, that scared buck left not a drop of blood. Is that the bullet's fault? NO. If you want blood, shoot low broadside. A frontal hit like mine will close up around the bullet because there is a lot of tissue there. A high shoulder or rib shot will deflate the lungs and the blood will pool in the bottom of the chest and have no way out. Blood has more to do with YOU doing your job to put 2 holes midway or lower in the chest (hitting the aorta over the heart is ideal) than it does the bullet.

All of that said, here is my experience:

200SW -- >40-50 deer, all with a load at 2100fps, range 20-338 yds. I love this bullet because it performs well over a wide variety of velocity. The shank is long enough for caliber to hold together on closer shots but you CAN make it separate from the jacket if you go through both shoulders. I have had this happen twice on 200 yd shots but both times it was on the far shoulder and made it to the offside skin. Those were the only two non-exiting shots I've had.

250SST (not bonded) -- 8-10 deer. You can't win, people claim this bullet either blows up or pencils through. In my experience the bullet is on the softer side, I attribute this to the shorter shank. All the deer I shot showed evidence of good expansion, one clearly came apart with 2-3 wound channels, none of the deer went anywhere. I've seen a couple reports of people who were experiencing non-expansion later determining that they were damaging the nose of the bullet using the wrong loading tool, resulting in the bullets folding in rather than out. That is hardly the bullet's fault. Honestly this is my least favorite of the family and I would be a bit hesitant to push it hard with smokeless and take a close range shot into the shoulder.

300SST (bonded) -- 1 deer. Deer was DRT but there was zero expansion, I hit no bone and it just penciled through. Way too hard at 1800 fps, perhaps at smokeless velocity it would perform better?

Nothing short of an RPG can turn a marginal hit into DRT. If you don't hit the heart and lungs, don't blame the bullet!! If you did not recover the deer, do not assume you did your part and blame the bullet!! I'll admit to a couple I was sure were great shots, that turned into tracking jobs, and it turned out that I had not hit where I thought I had.

[bigmoose]

Spaniel,

I trust you didn't get the impression I was holding myself up as a expert, nothing could be further from the truth, that is why I clearly stated "IMHO"
Since I have run 6000 plus shoots thru my Savages, [thats more than 3 shots in a dirt pile}.....I think, and have 63 years of hunting behind me, I'm just trying to share my limited experiences with the members of the board, since I have learned a great deal from reading their posts. Have a fine day, I enjoy running tests, even if they are meaningless.
Marty

[dave d.]

every bullet has it's limitations but shot placement is the key. Make the perfect shot and you will recover your game.

[spaniel]

Sept 11, 2010 11:17:43 GMT -5 bigmoose said:

Spaniel,

I trust you didn't get the impression I was holding myself up as a expert, nothing could be further from the truth, that is why I clearly stated "IMHO"
Since I have run 6000 plus shoots thru my Savages, [thats more than 3 shots in a dirt pile}.....I think, and have 63 years of hunting behind me, I'm just trying to share my limited experiences with the members of the board, since I have learned a great deal from reading their posts. Have a fine day, I enjoy running tests, even if they are meaningless.
Marty

Not you, Marty! Nobody here. I'm talking about people elsewhere who have never shot an animal with certain bullets but actually dismiss field experience on game based on a handful of test bullets retrieved from media nothing like game. People who have never used a certain bullet on game but feel a small number of ad hoc tests in their hands are more truth than real game experience of others. Being willing to ruin friendly relationships over a few bullet tests seems silly to me after a few go-arounds.

Testing is fun. It is directionally informative. It's just not a substitute for trying a variety of shots on the real thing and pooling the results. That is why I value sites like this, where I can get real experience from people who have tried it first under real conditions.

[bigmoose]

Spaniel,

;D ;D ;D

Best Wishes,

Marty

[trooper1]

I am of the opinion that we over think these bullets. 300 grains of lead/copper traveling at a reasonable high speed will kill anything in North America if you put the bullet in the chest cavity.

[chuck41]

Sept 11, 2010 22:52:09 GMT -5 trooper1 said:

I am of the opinion that we over think these bullets. 300 grains of lead/copper traveling at a reasonable high speed will kill anything in North America if you put the bullet in the chest cavity.

You are probably right, especially when you consider that the bullets we are pushing are between .400" and .500" in diameter. Even if the sucker doesn't expand that is putting a lot of shock and trauma into a deer sized animal when it passes through at 2000+ fps.

[edge]

I used a 300 grain pure lead bullet on deer with a smokeless load ONCE!
I will never do it again as, IMO it has no business being pushed that fast!

Did I get the deer, yes.

So for the "What are you complaining about crowd", the entrance wound was at least 8 inches in diameter and the main wound was 2 inches deep at the most!

IMO, if you choose to bet your deer on some small fragments making it to the vitals then be my guest...I consider myself very lucky, and the deer suffered for about 5 minutes before I got to it and it was still alive but expiring.

For the last 9 years of bullet debates here I think that I have been consistent.
I prefer an exit wound on a broadside shot, NOT for blood trailing, but because if it exits that means it left the deer with enough energy to do meaningful work!

IMO, a bullet that does NOT exit on a broadside shot will probably NOT reach the vitals on a highly quartering shot from the rear!
If you are willing to forgo all but broadside boiler room shots, then most bullets will probably work.

I have also shot a deer at about 35 yards with a 250 XTP as it faced me. One leg was all but amputated and shrapnel was the only thing that entered the chest cavity!

IMO, any jacketed bullet will most likely work as long as you chose broadside to slightly quartering. However, if you want to be able to shoot a deer from every angle then choose better bullets or shoot them SLOWER!

It is almost always the velocity that destroys a bullet, so a rifle bullet that needs 1800 fps to expand should not be relied upon to do a good job at 1400 fps and a bullet designed for 1200 fps pistols may not yield reliable use at 2500 fps!

Choose wisely Grasshopper

edge.

[Dave W]

My buddy and his crew have taken several deer the last two years with the 250 FTX which is not bonded. The two bullets that were recovered retained approximately 88% of their weight. Mostly long range kills in the 200yd zip code.
The deer I shot two years ago was a pass through at 65yds or so @ 2600fps. I think the FTX is less explosive than the old hard tipped version, if so, then the BSW should work better than the bullets in the link.

What a bullet does up close is not what it is going to do at long range with maybe the exception being the all coppers.

[rbinar]

Sept 11, 2010 8:49:21 GMT -5 edge said:

I love the goat! So much so I can't be too serious about a reply on this subject especially with Mark around.

But just as he has stuck to his guns I still have this basic idea. If possible: match the bullet to the game your pursuing.

Small Varmints: Faster highly explosive bullets: The only criterion is a quick kill on any hit.

Small Edible Game (squirrel, rabbit) Light solid bullet shot slower than a Varmint bullet for in out hole. It waste little or no meat.

Deer to 250 pounds: A meddium or light weight bullet designed to shed 35 to 60% of weight with near 3000fps muzzle velocity. Serria game king Remington Soft Point Nosler Ballistic Tip all good examples.

Big Deer or Caribou to 400 pounds controled expansion bullet: Either Heavier versions of above deer bullets or medium weight dual element bullets like Nosler Partition Swift A frame.

Game greater than 400 pounds. Heavy versions of the controlled expansion type or expanadable solid monoliths.

Game greater than 800 pounds: Heavy and as tough as you can buy.

[edge]

I can't argue with RB's post one bit!

Since most of the debates are about Deer hunting bullets, I especially agree with this statement:
Deer to 250 pounds: A meddium or light weight bullet designed to shed 35 to 60% of weight with near 3000fps muzzle velocity.

Those bullets will almost always yield an exit wound since it retains at least 40% of its weight, even though I'd prefer more:)

My problem is with bullets that behave as varmint bullets and don't give adequate penetration! A 250 grain bullet that retains 40% is still 100 grains and that will kill a deer

edge.

[dans]

I have had great luck with Barnes bullets. They have not failed me yet. Good expansion, and pass through penetration. They have broken both shoulders on deer and exited. I do not have to be concerned with the angle of the shot as the Barnes will get to the vitals. Even on a couple of marginal hits, the deer were recovered within 100 yards. I am overjoyed when one of my rifles shoots the Barnes bullets accurately. I will tinker with the load until I get it to do so. Yes they cost more than some of the other brands but when hunting I don't shoot many shots. At Savage velocities, I have had other cup and core bullets frag which I don't like at all. I don't claim to be an expert but I know what works for me.

[deadeer]

;)I knew this thread would make for some good reading! I do like Nosler Ballistic Tips in my pistols. Definately a violent and disruptive shockwave on a deer. It really knocks the crap out of them. I guess the SST/Shockwave would be similar. Come to think of it, I don't get a lot of exit holes with the BT's, but then again most deer do bangflop.
I will say that the buck I shot last year with the 300Rem was a marginal shot. It was liver rearward, and it did run a long ways, but I have NEVER seen a bloodtrail like that. The bullet did not exit, and it did come apart, but I think the recovered weight was like 146gr. A hard bullet like the BO or TMZ might have not helped in comparison regarding the internal bomb-like effect of what I had. I read where a lot of guys have had small exit holes on broadside shots with the premium bullets. I also shot a doe last year with the Rem and actually saw a big chunk of lung blow out of the hole at the shot. Same, no exit, but a 20yd shot at 2500fps would be hard on any bullet.
I did get some 250 ftx and H332 to duplex with, so I will try some high velocity loads to see what happens with the drop and accuracy. Safe to start with 14/61 or 13/62 n110-H322 duplex? Aren't those typically pretty good? Is there any duplexes with H4198 and a 250gr bullet. I had a misfire with 67gr H4198 and the 300Rem last year, and it won't happen again. How good or flat shooting is 42-44gr straight n110 with the 250ftx? Comparable to 300Rem at 2500fps, when you get out past 250yds? Thanks for everyone's thoughts.
Jay

[countryroads]

Edge, I don't know what "300 grain all lead bullet" you used but I can tell you this, I've shot 12 deer at ranges of 70 to 200 yds. with Lightfield 300 grain Alpha gold all lead BTS bullets, every one had an exit hole except the 200yd. one which had the bullet lodged in the far shoulder and none of them ever took a step! They all went down quick and died the same. I may not be as knowledgeable about all the different bullets as most of you fellas but I do know that lead kills and doesn't fragment throughout the meat like a lot of other bullets.
I've been looking for a 300yd. combo. and have played around at the range with PR's 195gr. duplex saboted Dead Center bullets. I'm only using a Lee 3.4 dipper with AA5744 so I'm not pushing the envelope and getting the kind of velocity that you most likely are but I've got 40* years of hunting experience and I guess I've been pretty lucky.