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Post by Richard on Aug 24, 2010 18:47:15 GMT -5
While most here are OK with three shot groups, I am still of the mind set that five is a more valid indicator of what my gun can produce Anyway, here is what todays range session produced along with an interesting occurrence for the high speed .45 shooter. First of all I did some testing with one of our members .45 Savage/PN which was sent to me to tweak and asses along with adding a recoil pad and shooting. Barrel length: 25" After dialing in the scope, I fired two groups with loads the owner was interested in.......both single powder. The first load was 63 gr. of H-4198, a smooth blue Harvester "easy load" sabot and one of my modified .40 cal. 200 gr. XTP's. It averaged 2688 fps and produced a three shot 1.095 and a five shot 1.366 group. This has been about where my .45 has averaged with various loads. The second load was 70 gr. of V V N-120 with the same sabot and bullet. This load averaged 2967 fps. but did not groups quite as well. Three shots give 1.227" spread while 5 strung it vertically into 2.717" This load might need to be tweaked downward? I had it up to 73 gr. in my gun but accuracy fell off after 72 gr. OK, just not as good as 70. Edge felt it might want to be duplexed with N-110 for more reliability.........which I subsequently did. After having shot the above load in a 25" barrel I tried it in my 23" gun. I wasted one shot on a scope adjustment in my gun so I only fired a four shot group. Velocity averaged 2893 fps and the group was 1.596. Sooooooooo, 74 fps slower than the 25" barrel. Next, I took a load from last week that shot really small 6/66..N-110/N-120 and wanted to see how much velocity and/or accuracy would change by dropping to 6/64? To my surprise, the velocity actually went up about 20 fps to 2954 fps. Accuracy was still just as good giving a three shot .416 and five shot 1.090" group. Just slightly bigger than last week. As good as this was shooting, I immediately went to 200 yards and fired the same combination. With velocity remaining the same, the 3 shot group went .894" and five gave me 2.513" Now to see what it would do with the 200 gr. The interesting part: SST..............................First shot....a loud bang! followed by a velocity reading of some 2600 fps and a "no sign of a hit" anywhere on the target Eventually a blown sabot. A comparison of the XTP and the SST shows the more roundish/ boattailish design of the SST vs. the very flat base on the XTP. I had this same occurrence a while back so I immediately know the problem I then switched to using 64 gr. of H-4198 with the SST at 2692 fps and got a pretty decent five shot 1.829" group. The big difference here is the POI dropped by 10" With the 6/64 load I was 3.5" high at 100 and still 2" high at 200. Richard
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Post by jhm on Aug 24, 2010 19:19:00 GMT -5
Nice shooting. What does your modified 200 grain XTP look like?
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lundy
8 Pointer
Posts: 182
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Post by lundy on Aug 24, 2010 19:57:06 GMT -5
Richard, You scared me with your post that said 79 gr N-120 in my gun. I think you meant 70 gr. The target notation says 70 gr, the post says 79 gr. What causes vertical stringing with that load in my gun? Should I try dropping the charge a little at a time and see what happens. Thanks for your help with this gun. A year ago I really wanted a 45 PacNor and had none, know I have TWO!
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Post by boarhog on Aug 25, 2010 1:45:44 GMT -5
Lundy, I don't think there is a cure for this addiction! I'm working on a Boyd's Thumbhole stock for one of my Savage 50s now (the one I bought from jhm), and saving my pennies for a 2nd PacNor barrel. I'm hooked!!
Richard, That was impressive shooting with 2 diff rifles! Some very pretty groups! My 45 likes N-110/N-120 duplexes. Last session, I had a few bulged and blackened primers with the 5/65 load. Perhaps hot weather related? We are supposed to have cooler temps this weekend. Hopefully I will get a chance to shoot. I have several versions weighed up to test. Boarhog
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Post by bigmoose on Aug 25, 2010 10:27:18 GMT -5
Richard,
I know the feeling, I shot a three shot group one ragged hole, I was planning to save it. { I only save the good ones, the others never happened] I decided to go for a five shoot group, the fouth shoot went into the same hole, I stopped and said the the gent next to me I was about to shoot a five shot one hole group with a ML, He said he'd spot for me , I loaded and shot, I now had a group slightly larger than I inch. The gent next to me said not bad but no cigar. I am now happy with three shot groups. All this with my RB Pac-nor .45, no chance of me doing it with my new top, The Buster Bullets. Congrads on very fine shooting.
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Post by chuck41 on Aug 25, 2010 11:13:43 GMT -5
Like bigmoose I like the three shot groups for the same reason. Plus, with 15 minute cooling time between, 3 shots take 31 minutes. (1 minute for three shots, two 15 minute cooling times between) Five takes over a whole hour!! I got lots of those two hole "never happened" targets in my trash.
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Post by bigmoose on Aug 25, 2010 13:04:21 GMT -5
chuck, You have to try, sabotless, load and shoot, as fast as you like, the barrel get hot, but it doesn't degrade the accuracy. I truth, I'm back to using vent liners after, playing with harden bushings, and I'm shooting my fifty, I really like sending a heavy bullet down range, half the fun is when the gent next to you says, "What in the world are you shooting"I tell them an ask them I they want to try it, so far no takers.
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Post by deadeye on Aug 25, 2010 13:29:24 GMT -5
richard,at glancing at some of your past targets i have noticed that almost alway's #4 & #5 open up your groups size,the exception on this posting of target #4 where 4&5 are within the first 3. i dont shoot the volume of shots you do w/ml but i find with the groups i do shoot approx 40-50% of the time my #4 & #5's are within the first 3. i dont shoot lighter bullets,not being a wise $$s,just wondered if you had any thoughts & took notice of this.
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Post by Richard on Aug 25, 2010 13:31:56 GMT -5
Chuck..........I am surprised that I am still hearing that "old Adage" of waiting 15 minutes between shots?? All these groups were fired with a maximum of 4 minutes between shots. Its called the "cool rod!" Works like an absolute charm BTW, I corrected the 79 to read 70 -- the nine is right next to the zero . Thanks Lundy.......I did send you an e-mail and indicated that some load playing might be in order to correct that. The first three were good even though they had a vertical dispersion. If it had been just a three shot group, no one would have noticed the vertical? Like I indicated, the more shots fired the more realistic the results. Look at my first 200 yd. group...........If I had just fired a 3 shot group, it would have been 2.5" But by firing 5, shots 3,4 &5 gave me a .8" group an d 2,3,4&5 about a 2" group. This shows me more what the potential of the load is. Anyway, thats my way thinking.........Ya'll's can do what you are comfortable with ;D Oh yeah! By the way...... My 26" Pac-Nor came in yesterday!!!!! Richard
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Post by Jon on Aug 25, 2010 17:06:52 GMT -5
If 5 is good would not 10 be better?
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Post by killitgrillit on Aug 25, 2010 18:01:59 GMT -5
But the single most important one is that first one down the cold bore!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you make the first one count who cares about # 3,5 or 10
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Post by boarhog on Aug 25, 2010 18:28:35 GMT -5
Just like Christmas at Richard's house!!
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Post by etj401 on Aug 25, 2010 18:45:06 GMT -5
I feel that 3 shot groups are ok for a hunting gun but would use 5 shot groups with a competition gun. I just got my Savage back a couple of weeks ago from 1shot1kill. I had the laminated stock bedded, third pillow installed and 45 pacnor installed. I have only had one chance to shoot it. I shot 70 gr of N120 and produced a 1.24 in group at 100 yds. I am planning to try 71 gr N120 on the next trip. I also shot 5/65 N110/N120 and that produced a .740 in group. I also shot 62 gr IMR 4198 and that produced a 2.00 in group. It appears to me that the gun likes speed. I have been watching Richards reports and appreciate all the work he is doing. I saw in his reports that the speed started to drop for N120 above 71 gr. I'm hoping to get N120 to shoot just a little bit better, under 1.00 in. I like the speed and would like to hunt with a single powder because it is simplier to carry than a duplex load. I'm going to tweak the N110/N120 load a little and see if it will get any tighter groups. I might end up using a duplex for hunting but I hope I can get the single powder.
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Aug 25, 2010 19:45:53 GMT -5
Richard is absolutely the guru of target shooting and the merits of the 5 shot group. His reasoning is not to be argued against from a bench rest position.
However, rarely are these guns used for such a purpose. Also, from a hunting perspective, 5 shot groups are meaningless.
Let's just say that Dave D. would add 2 shots to his sub MOA groups: And lets sat that his .80 groups at 200 ysd turned into 4" groups (unlikely). Would that mean that he had a marginal, so-so load? IMO...NO! For the hunting rifle that is employed for such a purpose, 3 shots tells more then is needed for accuracy in the feild. I don't even have to explain why because it's obvious.
So...you benchresters out there...I agree. For us hunters, a 5 shot group is nothing more then a waste of 2 shots.
Richard is right about many things regarding testing and theories about loads. However, I defer these valid arguments to the target shooters and say to hunters that a 2-3 shot group (that repeats....take a look at Dave D's results over many years...among others) is more then enough for confident game killing performance.
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Post by lwh723 on Aug 25, 2010 19:51:52 GMT -5
So...you benchresters out there...I agree. For us hunters, a 5 shot group is nothing more then a waste of 2 shots. I agree. I've had very few deer stick around for me long enough to put a five shot group into one although that was with a shotgun now that I think about it. 3 is the most I've ever put in a deer with an MZ.
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Post by Richard on Aug 25, 2010 20:07:50 GMT -5
Wilms..........You are 100% correct! Yes, I look at all my shooting from a target perspective and know the majority of people on this forum are hunters. Jon.......Yes, you are right! 10 is better than five That is why when you go to a benchrest match you shoot four or five (depending on whether long range (4) or short range (5) ) five shot groups. They add all five up and divide by five and get what they call an agg. (aggregate). That determines the winner. You can't go crying to the scoring shed and tell the guy............Hey, I pulled shot #4.........so don't count that one . But when you get done at the end of the match, you can say with reasonable certainty that "today, my gun was capable of shooting an average of say 2.456" for 20 shots. Not the fact that you had one group that was .945"? But others were 4.5 and 3.2 and 2.1 or whatever. Average! In quantitative analysis, the more samples, the, the more valid the results. So three is OK, but five or ten is better. Thats all! Deadeye.......I don't know where you have been looking, but it is definitely not shots 4 & 5 always or even some times, being the bad one. They run the gamut. One out and 2,3&4 in with 5 out or any combination thereof. If as you say, that was the case, I would not shoot five shot groups. You are "dead" wrong! For me, five is more indicative of what the capability of my is Richard
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Post by jhm on Aug 25, 2010 20:33:27 GMT -5
I am a hunter. As a hunter I feel it is my responsibility to humanly dispatch the game that I harvest. That is why I got started with the Savage muzzleloader, and recently upgraded to a Pacnor barrel. I try to find a load that is accurate and proven in the field. I keep notes on all the various loads that I try. When I find a promising load I will try it again on a different day with most likely a different temperature, humidity, and wind. I have found a five shot group gives me a better data on what is the best load for my rifle. Mathematically you can’t argue Richards point. For me as a hunter it just makes sense. But, I strife for the best not just good enough, or minute of deer. If a buck of a life time presents itself I will be prepared.
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Post by spaniel on Aug 25, 2010 21:04:12 GMT -5
If you shoot a 3-shot group that's around an inch, and especially if you get roughly the same a second or third day on the range with that load, how in the world is that not sufficient for 300 yard hunting? This is further than most people here want to shoot deer. Heck, a 2" grouping gun is only 6" at 300 yards.
Statistically you cannot argue that a 5-shot group is more telling of accuracy potential. However, one could equally show with statistics that multiple 3-shot groups will get you to the same place.
Personally, I would rather make sure I can shoot a good 3-shot group each day I go out to the range, than shoot a 5-shot group on my best day and go afield with that. Sure, multiple 5-shot groups would be even better but frankly, I'm lucky enough to get out on the range when I do and it's in my backyard. I have multiple things I want to accomplish and a 3-shot tells me all I need to know. I really don't care if the group is .8" or 1.0", it gets me to the same place for my purposes.
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Post by Dave W on Aug 25, 2010 21:25:00 GMT -5
So which is better, 5-3"s @ .8" or 3-5's @ 1.2"?
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Post by DBinNY on Aug 25, 2010 21:37:03 GMT -5
I recommend a number of one shot groups on woodchucks at various distances and environemntal conditions. That breeds confidence and that's a big part of success in hunting. The truth is that all of these methods can be statistically valid. I'll spare you the details this time. Just do what works for you and makes you confident. To each his own. There is room for everybody.
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Post by dave d. on Aug 25, 2010 21:52:05 GMT -5
Richard is absolutely the guru of target shooting and the merits of the 5 shot group. His reasoning is not to be argued against from a bench rest position. However, rarely are these guns used for such a purpose. Also, from a hunting perspective, 5 shot groups are meaningless. Let's just say that Dave D. would add 2 shots to his sub MOA groups: And lets sat that his .80 groups at 200 ysd turned into 4" groups (unlikely). Would that mean that he had a marginal, so-so load? IMO...NO! For the hunting rifle that is employed for such a purpose, 3 shots tells more then is needed for accuracy in the feild. I don't even have to explain why because it's obvious. So...you benchresters out there...I agree. For us hunters, a 5 shot group is nothing more then a waste of 2 shots. Richard is right about many things regarding testing and theories about loads. However, I defer these valid arguments to the target shooters and say to hunters that a 2-3 shot group (that repeats....take a look at Dave D's results over many years...among others) is more then enough for confident game killing performance. :)nicely said wilms i agree with you 100%.
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Post by ET on Aug 25, 2010 23:01:35 GMT -5
So which is better, 5-3"s @ .8" or 3-5's @ 1.2"? Now that’s a loaded question. ;D This could be debated until the cows come home and then some. A 3-shot group is indicative of the average performance of the rifle, load and shooter capabilities. A 5-shot group is more indicative of the extended average performance of the rifle, load and shooter. Each side of these stances has good points but I don’t see a wrong or right. I see personal preference for a required level of evaluation for a particular application. My requirement is knowing where that 1st shot out of my rifle/ML is going to hit at the ambient temperature and distance I shoot at. I am a hunter that desires a quick and humane 1-shot, 1-kill event. So whether I start with a 3-shot group or 5-shot group from a clean bore with 1-fired primer and dry swab before actually loading at the range with a proven load and I don’t put it where it counts I have a problem that needs to be addressed. Ed
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Post by edge on Aug 26, 2010 5:22:51 GMT -5
I would definitely suggest a 5 or 10 shot group but only counting the FIRST cold bore shot with a gun that has been loaded for at least a few hours using identical loads!
That should give you a real good idea of where the first shot will go and help determine your maximum range on what you are going to shoot.
IMO, going to the range with a Hunting rifle and firing a "fouler" throws away your most valuable shot!
edge.
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Post by dougedwards on Aug 26, 2010 5:49:27 GMT -5
I like one shot groups.......once a day and then add them all up.
Doug
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Post by deadeye on Aug 26, 2010 8:20:53 GMT -5
richard,paying more attention to your targets i see what you are doing,giving tight measure on 3,not necessarlily the first 3,just a mis-observation on my part. i have absolutely nothing against 5,10 or even a thousand but i wonder how many have actually conducted this test & i have,shoot 1 & only1,leave target up,put up like you always do for your hunting routine,return each day(keeping exact hunting routine) & add only the 1 shot that would have been for hair,i have done this test for great group results to as many as 7 days to monitor my firearms performance. i know for some this test would be a pain since many do not have their range just only 70yds out my front door.
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Post by bigmoose on Aug 26, 2010 9:33:14 GMT -5
dougedwards,
You are a man after my own heart, one shot....good...time to go home.
Edge,
At long last someone SEEMS to be agreeing with me, since I started posting, I'm said the FIRST shot from a clean barrell, will be one of the best of the group, if not the best. and it a good thing, since we are using a one shot weapon. Needless to say, the bigger the game, the more important, the first shot counts. In Canada, one year I meet three Indain hunters, since they have no season limits, they hunt the year round, all three had 22 long rifles, they were after Moose, I asked them if the 22's were enough gun for Moose, Their answer it was good for all game, the three all shot and kept shooting till the game went down.
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Post by bigmoose on Aug 26, 2010 10:09:06 GMT -5
deadeye,
A range 70 yards from your front door................. If I was your neighbor, I'd want to know what you liked wine, strong drink, cake, pie and donuts, and than find an excuse to come by every day with gifts, 70 yards.......that should put a smile on anyone face.
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Post by deadeye on Aug 26, 2010 11:36:22 GMT -5
bigmoose,yeah i am spoiled,approx 130yds from backdoor to 204yd bench, on those 1 shot test i will leave firearm out approx 1-2hr's much like hunting,the most important shot
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Post by Richard on Aug 26, 2010 11:53:43 GMT -5
Bigmoose...........Did you mean the first shot from a "Clean" barrel or from a "Cold" barrel................There is a big difference? I seem to recall from the majority of shooters on this forum that they prefer a fouled bore? Even with by bench guns I like to have a minimum of about five rounds thru the barrel prior to my record shots. The PN will often give me the first round in a different location than the next four...........So, do I always clean after shooting the rifle so I know where my first shot will print? Or, do I leave it fouled? "Eany, meany, miney, moe?" ;D Hey...............look at all the good debate a post like this stirs up? ;D...............Its what ever works best for you and builds the necessary confidence you need to make the shot. I am a target shooter and for me, I need "more shots" Richard
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Post by bigmoose on Aug 26, 2010 13:28:36 GMT -5
Richard, Here is my system, I pop a primer to make sure the BP is clear, then go to shooting, Like a lot of folks I use a Cardwell 3' target, with the doble triangle as the center aiming point, the first shot fron a cold barrel, I have great luck with, if I don't hit the center the shoot will be with in 1/4' Now I am not in your league as a bench shooter, in my case its the rifle thats gets all the credit, its a wonderful shooter, A gent like you could do great things with it. But like you a greatly enjoy shooting, when I was a younger man, I would shoot as many as 160 rounds at the range with my 06 and 300WM, now my age dictates how many shoots, after 15 or more shoots with my 45 I can fell a headache coming on, and with a heavy recoiling rifle as little as 5 shoots, with the 400gr Buster load, I have to quit after 7 shoots, and no amout of training will change that, My best advice, stay young. Best wishes, Marty
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