Three is in, but five is where its at....

[Jon]

Richard glad to hear you got your new barrel. I'm looking forwards to you report on the new compared to the old.
Jon

[artjr338wm]

Chuck,
I also can not recommend to you strongly enough that you build your self a rod cooler. I built one of a quite different design than most here have in that I first built a wooden rectangular box that including the 2" thick closed insulation I used to insulate the bottom with, is three inches shorter than my aluminum rod that had a 8" ID that i placed a piece of 4" PVC in with a end cap glued on the bottom. I used small pieces of round foam insulation to center the 4" PVC in the box and then filled the remaining space with "Great Stuff" expanding foam to insulate it. I got the wood for free and total cost W/Rod to build it was under $30, and I got it done in one day and had to allow the "Great Stuff" to dry over night.

I have used it once so far and I only went through about 75% of a 7lb bag of ice during a 7 hour + shooting session in temps that started at 70-72* and by about 10:30am were at the days max of around 80-85*. But most importantly the cool rod worked as well as every one here said it does and I could shoot as quickly as I could clean and reload my 10ML-II. With the cool rod in tow as far as your 10ML-II is concerned it is April all year long.

FWIW and with no disrespect meant to anyone what so ever, from a purely hunting point of view, IMHO five shot groups are of no use what so ever, and at best only show you your shooting ability FROM THE BENCH, and the shooting form you use while firing from the bench again IMHO, has not all that much application for use while in the field shooting at the animals we love to hunt.

I long ago religiously adopted a shooting system that in preparation for hunting once I have developed and chosen my hunting load, at my range sessions I spend no more than 10% of my time shooting from a bench (only enough shots to ensure my zero has not changed) and the rest of my shooting is done trying to as closely as possible mimic the types of shooting conditions and shooting form i will have to use while actually hunting. As we all know there are few if any shooting benches to be found in the deer and elk woods.

For those of you out there that can shoot five shot groups as well or almost as well as you can a 3-shot group, my hat is off to you most sincerely, as you are a better shot than i am and you are certainly not wrong in you beliefs, I am simply not of that line of thinking.

[Richard]

Art..........that is just a product of being retired with time on your hands ;D
Richard

[bigmoose]

Richard,

Here is what I want, out of a clean, cold barrel.
Needless to say, these groups are among my best, poor groups are throw away, they just didn't happen.
My thinking is I have a one shot rifle the first shot has to be on the money, the rest [ I love it] is just window dressing from a hunters stand point.
I understand, from a bench shooter like yourself, the five shot group, would be special, With all the rounds I fired from my Savage, I never shoot a 5 shoot one holer, 4 shoots yes.
so its 3 shot groups for, I'll leave the 5's for an expert like you.

[bigmoose]

I goofed up, again, this is the picture I wanted to post

[rossman40]

There is all kinds of math out there. Five shots will give a better representation of the capability of the load but also 10 would be more accurate and of course 100 would even be better.

Now lets say we shoot 50 rounds at a target and it looks like this,



Now if you pick three shots at random it can get confusing, if you picked these three you would think you hit the motherload,



If you picked these three you would think it was so-so,



Now if you picked three shots on the outer edge you would think the load was junk and would never shoot it again.

For us to accumulate data for 100 rounds is tough. You want the same weather conditions, the same sight settings and the same condition of the rifle/bore. And of course is the shooter going to be as keen thru a 100 shot string with a 10ML?

I shoot threes till something looks interesting and then shoot fives to verify but the "moral of the story" is not to judge a load by a single three shot group. Of course with hunting and tactical matches I have learned the cold shot is the one that counts.

The images for this came from a Denton Bramwell article over on LRH,

www.longrangehunting.com/articles/accurate-rifle-groups-1.php

[DBinNY]

I want a load that puts that one cold shot where I want it under a variety of weather and bore conditions.

[edge]

IMO, your first cold shot may look like all of those bullet holes over time!
Also IMO, they may migrate as the temperature changes. They may hit in the upper right when hot and lower left when cold. All information that you may want to know.

IMO, for hunting purposes the cold shot dictates how far you can reasonably shoot and expect to make a killing or crippling first shot, or what is just a Hail Mary!

If you look at that glob and if you shot that over a year you may not be impressed, but if it took a predictable and repeatable course depending on how long the rifle was loaded or as the temperature changed, then you might very well be able to stretch your comfort range for that big buck when the day of reckoning arrives.

edge.

[bigmoose]

From a hunting stand point, with a ML the first shoot is all important, I now reload each morning, firing one shot in the evening means nothing to game in remote area,if they could tell the difference between thunder and a gun shot, they would be too smart to hunt.
I don't say, it something that must be done and for many years, I keep my rifle loaded {no primer] in camp, in snow and rain storms, and never had a problem, maybe its just getting old, but I don't want to loose the trophy of a lifetime.
When you get to my age "lifetime" has a new meaning. One longer decades, more like years , months minutes and on and on...SMILE.
Roosman,
No doubt your right, and impact points can change, but it my case, most my shooying comes within 100 yards, and hot or cold, flat land or mountains, have not affected my zero, I sight my .45 three inches high at a hundred yards, my max on large game 200 yards, and after several thousand rounds the .45 is still on the money, this is do to the rifle builder not the shooter.
Since I like to exoeriment with different loads, with my .50, I resite-in [or at least check the zero] before going into the field. Next week I may go to my friends hunting camp, tons of hogs, I will take 50 or more, put them in the cross hairs and say bang your dead and go on to the next, the go part of this kind of hunting is you never miss.

[bigmoose]

"the GOOD part of this kind of hunting is you never miss"

[artjr338wm]

When it comes to shooting for testing not just a rifles true HUNTING accuracy, but more importantly YOUR MARKSMANSHIP as a hunter I have always wanted to but never have done this. Over a period of say a year and 12-15 trips to the range, hang up a target and firinng the first shot of the day, shoot at it one time only, and then put it away.

This done 10, 12 or even 15 times in a row over a time frame of say 8 to 10 months would give you a excellent and complete idea of most importantly your shooting skills as well as your rifles true accuracy from a STRICTLY HUNTING point of view and APPLICATION.

After all your first shot while hunting is THE most important of any shots you are going to take.

[zakjak221]

The best shot is the one that hits the deer's vitals.

Mark

[Richard]

Your theory would be valid provided you "never" touch your scope all year long? As soon as you make a scope adjustment for say..................a different load, that all goes out the window. You also have to consider the temperature, humidity, light conditions, different lots of powder and bullets. Practically speaking, very hard to do. If you had a range on your property, you could pick a day..........say one of those overcast cloudy winter days. Then shoot one shot....reload and every hour thereafter, shoot another shot under the same basic conditions. (using your regular regiment for "cleaning or not cleaning") Now you would have useful information where your first shot will go under similar conditions.
Richard

[edge]

IMO, that does not do nearly as much as you might think!

First, most folks have their rifle loaded for more than an hour before shooting a deer!

Second, all those days that you think may effect your accuracy ( because of changing conditions ) are EXACTLY what a HUNTER needs to know!

IMO, that "big blob" that you will get over time is the "Real group" that the rifle and shooter are capable of under varying conditions.

Now, if that shooter were of your caliber , he might have a record of the conditions and the results of those shots.
He may find that at 70 he gets a slight up and left group but near freezing conditions yield a dead low hit.

Naturally this is only my opinion

edge.

Sept 2, 2010 19:19:13 GMT -5 Richard said:

Your theory would be valid provided you "never" touch your scope all year long? As soon as you make a scope adjustment for say..................a different load, that all goes out the window. You also have to consider the temperature, humidity, light conditions, different lots of powder and bullets. Practically speaking, very hard to do. If you had a range on your property, you could pick a day..........say one of those overcast cloudy winter days. Then shoot one shot....reload and every hour thereafter, shoot another shot under the same basic conditions. (using your regular regiment for "cleaning or not cleaning") Now you would have useful information where your first shot will go under similar conditions.
Richard

[deadeye]

you fellas are startin to think & talk like long range hunters ;D,some of these test are less significant at short ranges but long ranges a must//above richards post @7'19pm describes actually what i do,play more in the field rather than the bench after the firearm is accurate ready.

[Richard]

Edge........I do agree (well short of) but the problem is still keeping the rifle and scope the same for however long it takes to do this test. I suppose for a hunter who never tests various loads and shoots the same thing year in and year out, this would work Sure doesn't sound like much fun?
Richard

[spaniel]

The only reason I shoot as much from the bench as I do, is because I cannot see my 300yd target prone due to a hill in my property I have not gotten dug through yet.

I'm fine with 3 shot groups. I go out with my gun knowing it's zeroed at 100 and knowing drops to 300-400, and shoot a 3-shot group on a day with some crosswind at 300-400 yds without checking where they hit until I am finished. If I am good enough to hunt at that range, they will all be in the kill zone when I walk down range to check. And again when I do it on another day under different conditions. If not, I have more work to do.

[deadeye]

spaniel,i think it is a must to know exactly where every shot places on a target. i never shoot a group of anything without knowing the exact sequence@any distance if possible. conditions change quite frequently & if the firearm is dialed conditions will push it whenever they change. imo a 3 or 5 shot group means nothing unless the shot is called in accordance with the called wind,in competition we will try to get five out before conditions change.one of the greatest ways to evaluate what the wind is doing to poi is to shoot a very accurate 17hmr in varing conditions even at the 100yd line

[edge]

I see zero reason to change my scope during the year...UNLESS when the hunting season rolls around I have chosen a new hunting load!

Let's assume I have decided on a hunting load but want to test other loads or just play

My scope is accurate with my GO TO Load so why would I want to change it?
IMO, I would MUCH rather know where other loads hit relative to my "perfect" scope setting!
IMO, let's say for some reason I run out of N120 and my "next best" load is using Rel. 7.
I can look back and see that a quick change of x number of clicks in elevation and windage will put me spot on for the R7 load and one cold bore shot should prove that out..... switch range cards and go get a deer ;D

When I pick up more N120 I can put the scope back and take a CB shot to prove I moved it correctly and I am good to go....with the correct range card!

IMO, over time I want all of my GO TO LOADS to have similar point of impacts and if I am constantly adjusting my scope then I lose very valuable information...IMO.

IMO, at the range I am shooting for "Groups" and anywhere on the paper is fine, when hunting I am shooting for score and that is when the scope gets adjusted.....but that is me

edge.

Sept 2, 2010 19:58:38 GMT -5 Richard said:

Edge........I do agree (well short of) but the problem is still keeping the rifle and scope the same for however long it takes to do this test. I suppose for a hunter who never tests various loads and shoots the same thing year in and year out, this would work Sure doesn't sound like much fun?
Richard

[tar12]

Richard when I started out with the Savage I shot everything under the sun in my quest for that absolute go to load.After many paper and hair tests I settled on "my" ultimate 300 yd deer buster.Frankly I do not care what this load or any other load will do at 350-400 yds because for me that shot is not going to happen in field conditions because it is unrealistic and unattainable and unethical for ME at those ranges.The same would be true if I had a Pac-Nor .45.When I do decide to go the Pac-Nor route I will tweak it to get the most out of it at 300 yds and will be done with it.My current set up is 100% reliable under varying conditions. The scope adjustments have not been touched in 3 years.I am so intimate with the N120 and that BO that I know bambi is going down period under all conditions.A hunters view....

[spaniel]

Sept 2, 2010 22:53:04 GMT -5 deadeye said:

spaniel,i think it is a must to know exactly where every shot places on a target. i never shoot a group of anything without knowing the exact sequence@any distance if possible. conditions change quite frequently & if the firearm is dialed conditions will push it whenever they change. imo a 3 or 5 shot group means nothing unless the shot is called in accordance with the called wind,in competition we will try to get five out before conditions change.one of the greatest ways to evaluate what the wind is doing to poi is to shoot a very accurate 17hmr in varing conditions even at the 100yd line

Well, 300-400 yds is too far to walk to the target every shot and typically even with my spotting scope it is not possible to spot every shot (especially at 400).

The purpose behind my method is that if I am ready to hunt at that distance, I should be able to go out and put 3 shots in the kill zone WITHOUT feedback from the previous shot. Of course shots 2 and 3 will be in the kill zone if I learn conditions from the first!! The fact is I need to be able to make the FIRST shot count. By shooting 3 shots blind to the outcome of the prior ones, I have 3 "first " shots to evaluate.

I typically make sure I get out and do this in conditions (ie wind) worse than what I would ever be comfortable taking a shot at an animal in. That way, when I am successful, I know I've just beaten my "worst case" hunting scenario.

It all goes back to the purpose -- are you interested in determining if it is a .8 vs 1.0 MOA gun, or making sure you can reliably make an accurate hunting shot? I don't really care about .8 vs 1.0 MOA over the long haul, if my 3 shot group at 100 is not an accurate reflection it will be clear quickly when I move to 300-400 yds. I care about my ability to consistently place chest shots on deer at the distances I hunt, inherent accuracy of the gun is irrelevant. I'm fine with a 1.5 MOA gun is I can shoot it 1.5 MOA at 300 yards, I am NOT fine with a .5 MOA gun if I am not capable of shooting it under 3MOA at 300!

[Richard]

OK, I agree with most all of the above..........Now, who is going to be the one to fire the 10 single shots over the next year and keep the board posted on the results?
Richard

[edge]

Sept 3, 2010 17:42:31 GMT -5 Richard said:

OK, I agree with most all of the above..........Now, who is going to be the one to fire the 10 single shots over the next year and keep the board posted on the results?
Richard

Sounds like a Doug's Challenge

I nominate................Richard ;D

You shoot the most with the BEST recording of events....IMO, the ONLY thing you need to do is NOT adjust your scope!
If you shoot at 200 or 300 yards, just use your stadia line OR set orange dots above your target at whatever you decide the MOA drop should be and do that for several sessions.

All for...opposed?

The yeas have it ;D ;D

you're up ;D

edge.

[tar12]

Sept 3, 2010 17:42:31 GMT -5 Richard said:

OK, I agree with most all of the above..........Now, who is going to be the one to fire the 10 single shots over the next year and keep the board posted on the results?
Richard

The retired guy with nothing but time on his hands! ;D

[bigmoose]

Tar12,

I'm a bum.....retired
While I am not in the same league as Richard, no number 7 targets in my past, present or future, if someone sents me 10 dimes, I will be more than happy, to fire ten one shot groups from a cold, clean barrel, on ten trips to the range.....Who knows I might ever hit one or two, it goes without saying, I will have a witness, sign off on each target....witness as in a stranger.

[Richard]

Then Bigmoose it is!
I'll tell you flat out, I'm not tying my gun and scope up when I am not the one who thinks this is how it should be done? I did not suggest it or condone it? Tar is the guy who hasn't touched his scope for three years, Bigmoose only shoots one shot groups at dimes Edge only occasionally goes to the "tunnel" and shoots sabots nobody else can get I would vote for our New Moderator
Richard

[Jon]

Bigmoose I would trust you 100% as far as I'm concerned you would never need a witness your word is gosple But If your serous and want to do this give me an address I send you 100 dimes to do with what you will. I really enjoy your posts. As much as you like the interest of shooting at your choice of targets I would be more than willing, it would cost you way more in powder I know you love a challenge.
Jon

[bigmoose]

Jon,

Hold up on sending the dimes, I'm going to ask my wife for an increase in my allowance.

Ricard,
Since you don't approve of this experiment, that will be my excuse to chicken out. That and my worrying of going O for 10 The last time I had some one goad me into trying it, I hit it on the first shot. I said at the time, no more, had five guys at the range watch, and one said, Its some kind of trick, it can't be done, I told him you got me partner, It is a fake.