A few questions, re-barreling .45 VS .50

[artjr338wm]

A anyone who is a member of this board and also a frequent visitor of same knows, 10ML-IIs with .45 caliber Pacnor replacement barrels are quite popular. I've gone back and forth for some time trying to decide if considering my quite large supply of .50 caliber components, would it be smart to have a second 10ML-II re-barreled to .45 caliber?

I know of some of the advantages a .45 caliber 10ML-II has VS a .50 caliber, but based on my rather limited knowledge of .45 caliber components, just how many bullets and sabots are available to the owner of a .45 caliber 10ML-II who still wish to shoot using sabots?

My last question is considering how tightly a SABOT-LESS bullet must fit and load in a .45 caliber to work, does that not some what limit your bullet selection? and if so jut how many bullets will work in a SABOT-LESS application in a .45 caliber 10ML-II?

I ask all these questions as IIRC there is little difference between the cost of a .50 cal or a .45 cal PN replacement barrel and for a 10ML-II owner like me who has a quite large amount of $$$ invested in .50 cal components, would there be any real advantage in spending the $$$ in converting a .50 cal 10ML-II to a .45 caliber 10ML-II?

I know a certain 190grn Barnes bullet fired using a sabot is all the rage with .45 owners, as well as the SST (both IIRC are .40 caliber) but I have not seen much ink about any other bullets that have worked well with sabots fired out of a .45 cal 10ML-II.

With my .50 cal I have shot at least six different .45 caliber bullets that have given me accuracy more than good enough for use in hunting, with at least four other untried bullets I know of also have a well earned rep for good performance out of the .50 cal10ML-II. My point being I know there are enough different .452 and 458 caliber bullets that i will find one that will shoot well out of a .50 caliber 10ML-II, especially if I go the aftermarket PN barrel. I do not know enough about the bullets that have been proven to work in a .45 caliber 10ML-II to say the same thing, although to date I have only read about one 10ML-II in .45 caliber that had difficulty developing a accurate load.

So I guess the question I should be asking is considering the much larger variety and availability of .50 cal ML components VS .45 cal ML components, and how many ML components I own in .50 cal would it make any sense to re-barrel to a .45 cal 10ML-II instead of a .50 cal?

Thanks,
Arthur.

[rjhans53]

art, 200 xtp works very well in my ML II and my converted knight kp1. My 45 shooting 200's doesn't kick near as hard as the 300 out of my 50 (it's the only thing I can get to shoot consistant). I shot some 180's this am out of my knight and they did pretty well. I would not convert my other ml II to 45 basically because I have one but do consider every now and then of putting a pac nor 50 on it and probably will early next year. My pac nor 45 shoots EVERYTHING that I have shot in it very well, (180 & 200 xtp, 200 barnes & SST's) the barnes seem to have a different point of impact but it will clover leaf everyting as long as I do my part. As far as sabotless, someone else will have to step up to that one I have no knowledge of that.

[pposey]

For general shooting , and closer ranges it dosn't make much sense at all...... that being said I really like my .45 pacnor,,,, If you are set on converting to a pacnor anyway I would go .45,,,

[Dave W]

Like Posey said, probably not a whole lot of sense, but if you have an itch that must be scratched, what is a guy to do. ;D

Any of the .452 bullets should be a sabotless option although I have done very little shooting with the all coppers you like. 250&300 XTP's, 250&300 SST's have all shot well but not as good as Parker BE's. .458's will also work but more dies are needed to get them down to a usable dimension. Rex is getting great accuracy out of the Barnes 275 XPB all copper last I read. You're quite familiar with knurling so once you have the right die, you should have no trouble getting the gun to shoot sabotless.

[deadon]

Dave,You are talking only about the 50 cal pacnor,correct? Or can you shoot the ml10 50 cal sabotless?

[Dave W]

Jun 5, 2010 16:25:13 GMT -5 deadon said:

Dave,You are talking only about the 50 cal pacnor,correct? Or can you shoot the ml10 50 cal sabotless?

I was referring to a .45. A .500-.510 diameter bullet from one of the major bullet companies would be needed for the .50 cal for sabotless or one of the Thor bullets. Couple guys have had good success with Thors. The flat based bullets have not been shot with much success sabotless in the .50 to my knowledge.

[deadon]

Dave, Thank you Sir

[Richard]

With my .50 cal I have shot at least six different .45 caliber bullets that have given me accuracy more than good enough for use in hunting!


Art...........if your .50 shoots that well, why even bother with ANY other barrel?

I "think" "maybe?" what you are seeing is that the .45's are a "tad" more consistent than your .50 and you are just getting a case of the "I want" rather than "I need" a PN? Right? There is nothing wrong with getting a new toy if you don't have to go in debt to pay for it.
Richard

[Chris Champion]

Even though my 50 cal barrel shot pretty good right out of the box, (consistent in 1.25 MOA range), my 45 Pacnor shoots circles around it...technically maybe its the other way around.

I was going to buy a barrel directly from Pacnor and have a local gunsmith bed and add the 3rd screw. Then in January of '09 RB posted about a batch of barrels he recently got from Pacnor that were intentionally at the high side of their bore diameter tolerance. His intent was to build guns using these barrels to make it easier to shoot sabotless since little to no sizing was needed to get a good fit with the Parker BE and the Barnes TEZ. I was one of the first, (if not the first), to get one of these barrels from him. His cost to do the conversion along with 2 of his custom breech plugs, bed the stock, lighten the trigger, and add the 3rd pillar screw wasn't much more than I would have had it in it installing the barrel myself then paying my gunsmith budding to bed it and add the 3rd action screw. Plus the turn around was just over a week from the time he got my action and stock (I had already removed and sold the 50 cal barrel and OEM laminate stock).

I was dead set on shooting the 250 g Barnes TEZ in the 2600 fps range sabotless. I was never able to get the accuracy I was wanting with these regardless of what swabbing technique I tried. It was kind of a pain in the butt. I finally gave in to the ease of putting a 195g Barnes or 200g SST paired with a Harvester blue sabot on top of 58 - 63 g of H4198 and consistently printing sub 1" 3 shot groups at 100 yds and sub 2" groups at 200 yds. No doubt the Pacnor custom barrel should take most of the credit for this kind of accuracy but some credit must go to the bedded action and heavy varmint style laminate stock its mated to. This gun weighs in at just a fuzz over 12 lbs. The recoil of shooting 200g bullets around 2750 fps is comparable to shooting 250g bullets at 2200 fps out of my old my 50 cal with its OEM laminate stock. Very mild in comparison to shooting 300g bullets at 2400 fps like I used to.

Art, IIRC you live in NW Indiana where a 40 cal bullet is legal to use out of a 45 cal gun. However, IIRC, Illinois regulations have a .45 cal min bullet diameter. Don't know if you hunt or plan to hunt in IL but if you do you would have to go sabotless if you go 45 cal so that is something to consider. Probably the only advantage a 45 would get you over a 50 is the ability to shoot lighter bullets faster with a flatter trajectory and less recoil. When I put it that way it sounds pretty convincing. ;D Since you are well stocked up on 50 cal components maybe a 50 cal Pacnor would be the way to go for you if you want to rebarrel.

[dans]

Since your 50 cal shoots so good I don't see any advantage in buying another 50. I went 45 and never looked back. If you are investing in another savage rifle plus a PacNor barrel a few components shouldn't be the deciding factor. Get a pack of blue smooth Harvestor sabots, a pack of 200 grain Barnes 40 cal bullets, and a pack of 40 cal. Shockwaves, a can of H-4198, and have at it. Some where between 58 and 62 grains of powder and one or both of those bullets will have you up to speed (approx. 2600 f/s) in no time. Its just not that hard to get these PacNor barrels to shoot. Now sabotless takes more tinkering to get the bullets just right for your individual barrel but mine shot 1 inch at 200 yards with a saboted Barnes bullet and I didn't need or want anything else. My first deer with this load was at 200 yards and I took the shot with extreme confidence.

[artjr338wm]

The single biggest reason I am interested in a .45 cal is actually two reasons. My sons. They will both be starting to hunt in the next 1-3yrs and i am looking for a good deer rifle that will not kick much and shoots only once for safety reasons.

A .45 caliber ML shooting a 190-200grn bullet seems to me to fill the requirements quite nicely. This load would likely out perform a 20ga slug gun in all areas and kick quite a bit less.

But I have been looking at the cost of buying two Knight Disk rifles in 45 cal, but as I would most likely use BH209, the cost per shot is almost double that of a smokeless powder powered 10ML-II, but I have seen NIB Disk rifles for way less than $300 and some quite abit less than that so I will have to sit and see what would best over all serve the hunting needs of my boys and also keep my costs down to a acceptable level.

I also know a Disk rifle weighs ALLOT less than a 10ML-II, something to consider for a 8-10yr old child, who although I will not let hunt alone, I will expect him to carry his rifle.

Thanks guys for the suggestions thay were what I needed to find out.

Arthur.

[tar12]

At the end of the day Art, who will be cleaning the smokepoles? BH209 still requires cleaning.The .45 PN is considerably heavier than a stock .50. I would not do that to them especially if it has to be carried any distance.On the other hand the BH209 has some recoil to it, make no mistake about it.My compromise was to stick with the stock Sav. .50 for the kids and "load" down for them.

[boarhog]

It seems to me the logical answer is to keep your original 50, since it seems to be pretty accurate. With all the frustration I've had getting my 50s to shoot accurately, I don't think I could consider converting one that shoots as well as yours. You can take the time to look for a used Savage ML10 to convert to 45, or buy a new Stevens to convert as some on this board have done. By the time your boys are ready to hunt on their own, you will have had the opportunity to build them their own ML.

I started taking my boys with me around age 5. They weren't actually hunting, but were sitting on a stand with me. Often wrapped in blankets and sound asleep! When my youngest Son's Daughter was 3, we had to keep a watchful eye on her, or she would be climbing deer stand ladders. She is now 12, and has killed several deer. She doesn't sit on a stand by herself yet, but has her own 243, and makes good shots!

[deadon]

Art, I agree with Boarhog 100%, If you, and I would also, want them to carry a gun when they hunt with you, a 410 single barrel at 150 bucks will do the trick And you have to do something to make it shoot[cock the hammer].. Some shoot slugs pretty darn good. BH, you made many many memories with those kids I have some I would not trade for another lifetime on this earth for

[dans]

OK that recoil thing bothers me as near as I can tell the 45 PacNor barreled laminated Savage (60 grains of 4198 and 195 barnes) has practically the same recoil as my tupperware stocked 50 cal Savage with a book load of 4759 and a 250 grain bullet. Both in the 16 + foot pounds of free recoil range. The lightest weight factory savage has a tupperware stock and ready to hunt will weigh 10 pounds or so. Loaded down as Tar12 suggested and with a good pad the youngsters can handle it. My own grandson is nine and will be shooting my Savage from the Benchmaster rest this summer. I will use RBs women and childrens load of 20 to 22 grains of
4756 with a 250 grain Hornady xtp for a light kicking load.

[edge]

IMO, most ML rifles are heavy!

I would suggest a tactical sling that has the rifle diagonally in front of your chest.
All of the weight sits on your shoulders and in the middle of your body. They can be hands free and very quick to point and shoot.
My rifle is closer to 15 pounds with the bi-pod but it is manageable with the right sling, without it is a stand only rifle

I do admit that most of my hunting is fairly flat ground and I rarely walk more than a couple miles in a day.

edge.