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Newbie.
Jun 3, 2010 10:08:01 GMT -5
Post by trooper1 on Jun 3, 2010 10:08:01 GMT -5
I recently obtained a tag to go on a muzzleloader hunt this fall. I do not own one so I need to get one and practice with it this summer. I am quite picky about accuracy in my rifles and most likely this is the reason I have not owned a muzzleloader. My research has recently shown me that I have been missing out on some fine shooting MLs. I'm looking for advice. I like the Savage ML because of the accuracy. Are there any others that are as accurate out of the box that are reasonable in price.
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Newbie.
Jun 3, 2010 11:45:16 GMT -5
Post by Richard on Jun 3, 2010 11:45:16 GMT -5
Welcome Trooper........There are a lot of questions that need to be answered for you to make a decision. This hunt....Is it in a state that requires a minimum caliber? Is "smoke-less" legal? There is a learning curve with these smokeless ML's that goes beyond your typical black powder rifle. You have to be prepared to spend a little time with them. An aftermarket custom barrel is available to really make them tack drivers. Smoke less requires pressure for ignition where black powder does not. Hence bullet sabot fit is crucial. POWER BELTS are out!! The Pac-Nor .45 and .50 cal. custom barrels are where the best accuracy lies. But then again, it depends on your situation? The stock Savage .50 is probably a solid 100 - 200 yd. gun with good loads. Yes, 300 is doable, on occasion...... Depending on your skill and loads. The Pac-Nor barrel is the way to go if long range is where you want to be. Either of the two laminate stocks (thumbhole or regular) are the way to go. Their synthetics have too much whip in the forend and need attention to correct it. There are a lot more things which, I'm sure, other members will chime in on. The speed you can obtain from smoke less will completely blow away the black powder/subs. 26 to2700 fps with a 250 gr. bullet is very doable. 2500 with 300 gr. bullets also. With a .45 Pac-Nor you are looking at 3,000 fps with a 200 gr. bullet. Be sure to look thru the Hints and Tips section and review the Loads section also Good luck Richard
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Newbie.
Jun 3, 2010 11:55:59 GMT -5
Post by dennisr on Jun 3, 2010 11:55:59 GMT -5
If you have been hesitant to shoot a muzzleloader for fear of poor accuracy, I think you have been misled. Any reputable-brand muzzleloader will shoot well or something is wrong.
But as Richard asked, you have to decide whether you want or are allowed to shoot smokeless. If you want to shoot smokeless, your best options is probably the Savage. But be aware that finding the most accurate load for your gun using smokeless can be more difficult than using Pyrodex.
On the flip side, if you are going to shoot Pyrodex (no smokeless), you have a lot of accurate options. (Savage included)
Dennis
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Newbie.
Jun 3, 2010 12:01:42 GMT -5
Post by trooper1 on Jun 3, 2010 12:01:42 GMT -5
Thanks for the info. The state I'm heading to does allow for smokeless powders. This makes the Savage even more attractive. I'm reading a lot about sub MOA accuracy from a out of the box Savage if you put in the range time. Is this possible or do these guns require a pac nor barrel to get this type of accuracy?
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Newbie.
Jun 3, 2010 12:38:09 GMT -5
Post by pposey on Jun 3, 2010 12:38:09 GMT -5
Some will shoot that easy out of the box with the right load, others need tweeking,,, what weight bullets are you thinking about shooting and what species are you after
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Newbie.
Jun 3, 2010 13:01:56 GMT -5
Post by trooper1 on Jun 3, 2010 13:01:56 GMT -5
Going after whitetail. 250 - 300 gr. More interested in accuracy. Want to make sure I'm confident out to 200 yards. Looking for 1 MOA or better. I have shot high power competitions and have several sub MOA rifles. I need to get going though so any help in this decision is welcome.
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Newbie.
Jun 3, 2010 13:44:08 GMT -5
Post by 153 on Jun 3, 2010 13:44:08 GMT -5
Going after whitetail. 250 - 300 gr. More interested in accuracy. Want to make sure I'm confident out to 200 yards. Looking for 1 MOA or better. I have shot high power competitions and have several sub MOA rifles. I need to get going though so any help in this decision is welcome. If you want CONSISTENT MOA at speed save yourself time and money go ahead and order a PacNor and place it on a Laminated Stocked Savage. Many on this board as well as I have tried to get consistent MOA out of a stock Savage and most in the end have went PacNor and after the first trip to the range wonder why they did not just get the PacNor in the first place. My PacNor has shot 90% of loads tested MOA or better to 200 yards CONSISTENTLY. The load I hunt with is 11 gr N110 under 49 gr of 322, light blue Harvester sabot and either a 200SST or 195 Barnes, and get 2600fps. That is another thing about shooting the PacNor is 90-95% get excellent results using the same light blue Heftiest sabot, where as with the stock Savage I can think of at least eight different sabots that have been used with a 250SST/XTP bullet because of the inconsistent barrels. Go back and read some of Richard's old posts, I forget how many combos he tried with his stock barrel and finally got a PacNor and got excellent results after he bulged :'(his barrel and got it back. ;D
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Newbie.
Jun 3, 2010 14:06:09 GMT -5
Post by trooper1 on Jun 3, 2010 14:06:09 GMT -5
Thanks for the help
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Newbie.
Jun 3, 2010 15:48:04 GMT -5
Post by boarhog on Jun 3, 2010 15:48:04 GMT -5
There have been some on this board that took the Savage out of the box, cleaned it well, and shot 1" groups with a book load. I was not so lucky, and I would not want to promise anyone 1" groups from a factory stock Savage. By playing with bullet size and weight, plus finding the best sabot fit, most everyone can probably expect decent hunting accuracy. Savage claims they shoot 1.5", 3 shot groups, before it leaves the factory, but it took a lot of work with my Savage to get 1.5-2". I later double loaded and bulged that barrel, so ordered a 45 Cal Pac-Nor barrel for it. It shoots great! I have since bought 2 more Savage 50s from board members. One of them has a bit larger bore than the other, and it has taken quite a bit of work to find a load that will do under 2" regularly. I have not yet worked with the other rifle very much, but have shot 1.5" for 2, 3 shot groups. If you have never worked with any type of muzzleloader, you may have an unreasonable expectation as to the accuracy potential. There are the same variables you find for accuracy in center fires, plus a whole range of variables particular to MLs. When you add the variables of shooting smokeless pressures in a ML, the fun really begins, but it aint always so easy! Boarhog
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Newbie.
Jun 3, 2010 17:12:28 GMT -5
Post by trooper1 on Jun 3, 2010 17:12:28 GMT -5
Thanks this sound realistic to me. Every ML that I have ever shot was just not capable of centerfire groups. I'm only looking to drop a deer at 200 yards but I would like to hit where I aim. Every match rifle I own outshoots me. My brother unfortunately proves this to me every time he shoots one of mine (he out shoots me too obviously).
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Newbie.
Jun 3, 2010 18:12:44 GMT -5
Post by whyohe on Jun 3, 2010 18:12:44 GMT -5
trooper1, i too cannot guarantee MOA oout of the box but both of mine shot MOA or just above with no tweeking. if you read the tips and hint section it might give you some idea what some may go threw to shoot accuratly with a SAVAGE. I'm not saying it will be hard to get it to shoot but it may not be easy either. if you start with book loads and find the bullet and sabot combot that fits right in your gun i dont think you will have trouble getting good accuracy. no mater what you buy if you need help they people here will help you!
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Newbie.
Jun 3, 2010 18:36:56 GMT -5
Post by deadon on Jun 3, 2010 18:36:56 GMT -5
Trooper, I ask hundreds of questions here before I purchased my ML 10 and hundreds more after. Everyone here was very helpful. I then took the powder I had on hand and the bullets I had on hand and for the next two months, I proved they new exactly what they were talking about.I then went over all my notes,USED and DID exactly as they recommended and went from 4 to 6" groups at 100 yrds down to 1 1/8 " groups overnight with a factory Savage. I have owned 7 MLs, Some shot better but I love this smokeless thing. .
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Newbie.
Jun 3, 2010 21:39:25 GMT -5
Post by bloodtrailer on Jun 3, 2010 21:39:25 GMT -5
I have two savages .50 and both shoot close to moa 1st one took some time and tweaking but shoots 2-3 inch at 200yrds. The other (my son's gun)shot great right out of the box. Best thing to do is get one, then shoot the gun w 4759 & 250grn bullets and sabot supplied as a base line (43grns 4759 100yrds 250 xtp mmp black short) remember to cool the barrel between shots(time 15-20min if over 60, or use Richards cooling rod it works) and then try other recommended loads before rushing out to buy a barrel you might get one like my son's
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Newbie.
Jun 3, 2010 21:46:31 GMT -5
Post by Richard on Jun 3, 2010 21:46:31 GMT -5
Trooper1 Check your private messages! Richard
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Jun 4, 2010 5:13:25 GMT -5
Trooper,
You mentioned a few things that got my attention. You need a smokeless ML...you require above average accuracy...and you don't have a lot of time.
I will say that if money is not too much of concern, get the Savage in a laminate stock and throw on a pac-nor .45 barrel, bed it properly and be done with it. I have 2 Savage's that took a fair amount work to get it shooting. I have a fair amount of loads that are easy 1.5 or better MOA at 100 yds and none that are better then 2-3 MOA at 200 yds. However, in my opinion, that's good enough for precise enough placement on whitetails out to that range.
You mention that you benchrest shoot a lot. You may not like the accutrigger...some here do...I don't.
It is not unfair to say that by NOT getting a pac-nor, you could easily spend enough on sabot/bullet combo's in the stock version to pay for the custom barrel before you settle, with confidence, on a great load.
Check out some posts by "dave d." regarding prefered twist rates (you have options) and load info by Richard. In my opinion, a guy could rule North America with a .45 pac-nor and 195 grain Barnes coppers at 2700 fps.
Getting quality optics and mounts on your new gun goes without saying. Your gun will only shoot at above average levels with a solid scope that is clear, holds zero, and can take a fair amount of recoil...over and over again.
Let us know how you make out.....also, PM dave d........he may have a gun all ready for you to buy...ready to go. He usually gets tired of shooting 1 1/2 groups at 300 yds with his creations, sells his gun, and build another one. ;D (right dave?)
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Post by pposey on Jun 4, 2010 6:57:11 GMT -5
Course you have some wait time for the Pacnor don't ya? Waited many weeks for mine
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Newbie.
Jun 4, 2010 10:34:23 GMT -5
Post by trooper1 on Jun 4, 2010 10:34:23 GMT -5
Thanks for all of the advice. This is a great site with some great information. I just pulled the trigger on a Savage Laminate. It will be here next week. I will be updating status and asking more questions once I get it to the range. This site has been inspiring and unbelievably helpful.
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Newbie.
Jun 4, 2010 12:48:42 GMT -5
Post by boarhog on Jun 4, 2010 12:48:42 GMT -5
I have said it before, and it is still true,,,, The members of this board want to do all they can to help you be successful!
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Newbie.
Jun 4, 2010 13:17:17 GMT -5
Post by pposey on Jun 4, 2010 13:17:17 GMT -5
Get some good steel bases and high quality rings, make sure the front base dosn't hit the recoil lug, and get a really good scope,,,, these things are hard on optics
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Billy
8 Pointer
Posts: 188
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Newbie.
Jun 4, 2010 20:16:18 GMT -5
Post by Billy on Jun 4, 2010 20:16:18 GMT -5
Get some good steel bases and high quality rings, make sure the front base dosn't hit the recoil lug, and get a really good scope,,,, these things are hard on optics And get a cooling rod or be prepared to wait as much as 30 minutes between shots, depending on the temps where you live. The most frustrating thing in the world of shooting is to fire a very carefully aimed shot, only to have no idea where it went .... because the heat blew a sabot and the bullet came out sideways and went who-knows-where.
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Newbie.
Jun 4, 2010 21:08:49 GMT -5
Post by trooper1 on Jun 4, 2010 21:08:49 GMT -5
Tell me about this cooling rod. Where do you get one. I thought I saw some comments about making one with a cooler .
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Newbie.
Jun 4, 2010 23:44:38 GMT -5
Post by boarhog on Jun 4, 2010 23:44:38 GMT -5
Pick up a 3' piece of 1/2" aluminum rod somewhere. Guys here have said they found them at Lowes or Home depot, etc. I had to order mine from MSC Industrial. I also ordered a piece of 7/16" rod at the same time to use in a 45 barrel. If the 1/2" rod is too tight a fit in your barrel, chuck it up in a drill press, lathe, or just an electric drill, and sand it down to fit. Or you can contact Rossman40 on this board. He has been making them for folks. Richard has a post about building a full length cooling tank for the rod, I use a small ice chest, or you can devise your own method of cooling the rod. When I shoot, I take the rod out of the ice chest, dry it with one of the heavy, blue, paper, shop towels I buy at an auto parts store, and push it into the barrel. Leave it in for about 1 minute. Then I lightly clean, reload and shoot again. Some like to shoot a fouled barrel, and you will have to decide for yourself which method works for you. Richard has posts about using the Kool Rod that is much more detailed and scientific than mine. Boarhog
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