Anybody ever "blend" powders?

[pposey]

Lordy I know that is viewed as taboo on most reloading sites but so are duplex loads,,,,, just wondering, I was talking to someone the other day who has messed with blended powders in a centerfire,,, he claims thats what the Hornady Light mags are,,,,

[rossman40]

Hornady has been "blending" powders for a while now. I still think they stole the idea from this board. Basically your adjusting the burn rate and the pressure curve of the charge. Your basically getting a flatter and longer "spike". You have to watch playing this game unless you have ways of measuring the chamber pressures.

[Jed]

If you carefully read the Hornady literature, they basically admit to blending powders to create their new Superformance ammo. I think I've also read that some of their LeverEvolution ammo is loaded with blended powders. That is why those "powders" remain unavailable to the reloader. (Also a "don't try this at home" kind of statement in some of Hornady's literature I've read.)

I can't say that I know of any other major manufacturers blending powders...I'm sure some of them do, but can't say that I've read it in print. Anyone else know?

[Dave W]

Like Rossman said, Hornady has been at it for awhile, that is why you can't duplicate the velocity of some of their ammo using data in the reloading manuals.

[pposey]

for our applications,, ie savage ml2's,,, would a blend work simular to a duplex but with less of a difference from just the slower powder? Still burn a little quicker than the slower powder and not spike pressure as fast as the faster powder?

[Richard]

Look...........Here is the "good ole" U S of A, we are blessed to have the variety of powder we do. There really is no need to "blend" them. I have shot with 1,000 yd. bench-resters from Australia at IBS National events and they Blend powders........Why? Their supply and variety is so limited. They have been blending for years. I personally see nothing wrong or dangerous with it provided you are experienced and keep good records. Many of us play with "wild-cat" cartridges which have no commercial load listings. We have to rely on similar capacity cases to get in the "ball park" and slowly work our way up. The same would go for a blended powder.
Right now, V V N-133 is the powder of choice for the short range benchresters shooting a 6mm bullet in the 65 to 68 gr. range with a PPC cartridge. Prior to N-133, V V came out with N-130. This was thought to be a good powder for the PPC until 133 came out. Since a lot of shooters had bought 130, they started Blending it with 133 to try and make it better? It was not, and N-133 took over. The thing is, just be sensible with it.
For me, and my .45 ML, I think blending it totally defeats the purpose. I want N-110 or 5744 to "kick-start" my N-130. If I blend it, I will not get the desired effect? If I had a 25 or 26" barrel, I might consider blending 130 with 133 PLUS still use 110 as my booster.
Just my thoughts
Richard

[rossman40]

My question is how they can mix say 100lbs of powder and keep it mixed over the run of loading a lot. If you had different sizes of powder granules if you put just a slight vibration to it I would think the powders would separate.

Didn't Edge or RB try separate loading the duplex and then mixing the duplex and not see any difference.

[DHinMN]

I thought maybe those Hornady light magnums were duplex loads. It could be done if the case was full enough to get just a bit of crush with the bullet to keep it in place. Somebody made referance to something like this but not sure where. I have read about the blending in Hornadys catalog. I'm NOT going to try it.

[chuck41]

May 23, 2010 22:24:13 GMT -5 rossman40 said:

My question is how they can mix say 100lbs of powder and keep it mixed over the run of loading a lot. If you had different sizes of powder granules if you put just a slight vibration to it I would think the powders would separate.

Didn't Edge or RB try separate loading the duplex and then mixing the duplex and not see any difference.

I would suspect that blended powders would not be a good idea for a manufacturer to sell to reloaders. Once it leaves his control it could be stored for long periods where there is vibration (like the back of a truck) that would tend to separate the mix leaving layers of the different sized granules.

You unsuspectingly dip up your N110 / N130 "blend" and get what is essentially 97% N110 instead of the 16% intended. Not exactly a recipe for happiness.

[Dave W]

May 23, 2010 22:24:13 GMT -5 rossman40 said:

My question is how they can mix say 100lbs of powder and keep it mixed over the run of loading a lot. If you had different sizes of powder granules if you put just a slight vibration to it I would think the powders would separate.

Didn't Edge or RB try separate loading the duplex and then mixing the duplex and not see any difference.

I tried as well. At a 100yds there is not much difference between blending and stacking, at 200yds the blend was double the size of the stacked duplex. IIRC

If Hornady is blending and getting good groups, then I see no reason a blend would not work in a MLII, more booster will probably be needed to get the pressure up to what a stacked duplex would shoot.JMO

[fletch]

While I did not blend any powders, when I first started getting into smokeless shooting I did do much more test shooting with duplex powders. ( always using a crony) What I started doing was trying to see if it mattered if the booster was below or on top. It did not and still does not make scene to me that the better, faster load had the booster on the bottom. The only thing I can guess at is that the primer shoots a stream of fire up to the base of the wad and ignites most of the larger charge first. I don't shoot much duplex any more as I now us a BB on top of the vent to disperse the primer ignition and find this works just as well. But I still like a mild V110/H322 that I was using.

[shoot2reload]

May 24, 2010 9:41:19 GMT -5 fletch said:

...I now us a BB on top of the vent to disperse the primer ignition and find this works just as well.

Do you mean you just drop one down the barrel prior to loading? (ie. is the bore funnel shaped in front of the vent or something?) I'm having trouble envisioning how you would orient this.

[Richard]

Rossman........I have mixed the N-110 booster with the N-130 main charge on several occasions..................the result? A load which say..........would shoot at 2900 fps? It would shoot at 2800 fps. Always considerably lower.
Richard

[rossman40]

I have some pictures somewhere of some WWII primers the have a ball in them to act as a check valve.

[youp50]

I started blending h4198 and imr sr 4759 for my 50 ml. It was done one load at a time in an empty Barnes Bullet box.

Richard also posted at that time he experienced a 100 fps drop in velocity. For my hunting, I doubt a deer will notice a 100 fps drop in velocity. It seemed that blending would simplify my possibles bag.

I didn't shoot much last winter and never followed with proper testing.

I duplex to improve cold weather ignition reliability of the h4198. Others duplex to wring the maximum possible velocity from a load.

[edge]

Here are a few comments/threads from the Old Board:

dougva.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Savage&action=display&thread=3887&page=1

I was going to test a new load this morning so I shot 4 regular Duplex ( fast powder first, followed by slower powder).

I then mixed a load into a new container and shook it until I thought that it was thoroughly mixed.

My first shot was right in with the other group, I then shot a called flyer ( it actually hit much closer than expected ;D, I then shot a shot that felt good.

I am not a good shot and have a tendency to yank the trigger. I think that someone with good form could tweak these loads +- and get good accuracy from either mixed or standard loadings.

edge.



dougva.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Savage&action=display&thread=9617

A while back I was asked about 50 caliber sabots from PVC. I explained that the material would need to be oversize ( 9/16) since 1/2 material would not guaranty that it would clean up while machining.
I did entertain the thought that I could machine the ID and OD undersize, and that that may work. Today I had the time to try it.

I was at the range for exactly 1 hour. This consisted of setting up, cleaning the bore, putting out the target, shooting 4 groups of 4 shots, and 1 pit stop ;D

I shot the top group first, then rotated the target to the right "undersize" group. Then the "tight sized", and finally the "Mixed Duplex" ( which the scanner cut off ).

The Regular sabots load fairly loose, probably 15 pounds.
The undersized were much tighter, and probably felt like a normal sabot load 40# perhaps.
The tight sized were probably a little more loose than normal 10-15#.
Then back to the Regular sabots, but mixing the Duplex for about 30 seconds in an oversize load container.



16 shots in an hour means less than 4 minutes per shot, probably 2-3 minutes on average.

First I like my new targets as far as sighting, although going down range to rotate 90 degrees every 4 shots is a bit of a pain, but when you shoot solo it is not that bad.

IMO, If somebody were to try to machine a 50 caliber sabot from 1/2 material it seems doable. I will try to machine a few more with a bit more clearance so they load easier, but I don't think that you give anything up in the way of accuracy.
Shots 1,2,3 were the 5th,6th, and 7th shots so the bore was warm. Shot#4 felt good, but I do not recall how it loaded.

Next time out I will try these sabots as the first shots and see if it makes any difference.

edge.

dougva.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Savage&action=display&thread=10961

Dec 15, 2008 12:09:12 GMT -5 shoot2reload said:

Here's another newbie question about duplex: are the powders actually layered? Is it enough just to have them mixed together, or must the faster burning powder be poured in closest to the primer?

I have shot layered and mixed, and the layered has been a bit more accurate, and if you are concerned about ignition, it will probably be more reliable.
One thing about mixing is that it takes quite a bit of rolling around and flipping over a small container to actually do a thorough job. If you take a normal vial that most of us use and fill it 3/4 full it will take at least a full minute of shaking and flipping and rolling to see a homogeneous mixture.

I do admit that I have NOT taken a great deal of time in working up mixed loads since I do not find two containers to be that bad.
I usually take the two containers and have one cap facing one way and the second facing the opposite direction. Then I tape them together with Scotch tape ( clear tape ).
It is easy to tell which one has 20 grains and which one has 55 grains

edge.


PS I did have a bedding issue/ shooting finger issue back then and had a tendency to shoot two separate groups almost always an inch left/right of each other!
edge.

edited to repair links

[edge]

An added point, is that at NO time did I try to build a load using a mixed duplex! All I did was take a load that was ok and mix it up.

I am sure that by varying the ratios and upping/lowering the powder weights that a load could be worked out that would probably meet ones needs.

edge.

[Jon]

edge thank you for the efort put forward glad to see you posting more.
Jon

[shoot2reload]

Thanks edge!

I remember asking that question way back when, but my searches for the thread had come up empty.

[pposey]

No kidding thanks edge

[Richard]

Coincidence that I also mixed one load on purpose just to see how it compared to the standard duplex
Richard