Bullet performance questions

[ozark]

I would guess that hand loaders could provide the best information on my questions.
Bullets are designed to perform best on animals at a window of velocities. Put another way, as the bullet travels it loses velocity and at some point it would become unsatisfactory with respect to expansion and penetration.
I am primarily a .243 shooter and although I know it will reach out to 400 plus yards I would guess (and I am guessing) that beyond 400 yards bullet performance would suffer due to speed loss.
I have read that the Remington 100 Grain core lokt is about ideal for deer in the .243. What would the re loaders think would be the best performance window. My guess would be between 75 and 200 yards. Is that close. Please educate me on this. Thanks.

[thelefthand]

Honestly, I think once you get past 200 yards, your goal needs to be to put a hole in the vitals. By that point, you've lost a noticeable amount of your velocity. Depending on how big your deer are, a .243 is on the small end anyway. When you blend all of that together, the result you get (in my twisted mind anyway) is that a good controlled expansion bullet will consistent results for a long ways out. If I knew that I could place the shot in the vitals without having to punch through heavy bone, then the bullet should do just as well at 400 yards as it does at 200. That's just my 2 bits though. Oh, and keep in mind that I don't shoot a 243.

[billc]

Ozark,

I punched some number into the "Load From a Disk" program.
Using 24 inch barrel length to the bolt face, Sierra 100 gr SBT GK, and 42.5 grains (90% case capacity) of IMR-4350 we get a muzzel velocity of 3057 fps

100 yd = 2822 fps and 1768 ft lb
200 yd = 2597 fps and 1497 ft lb
300 yd = 2384 fps and 1262 ft lb
400 yd = 2184 fps and 1058 ft lb
500 yd = 1995 fps and 884 ft lb
and we get 62.3 inches of drop over the 500 yards.

I have always heard that you "need" 800 ft lbs for deer. So assuming that is correct, then 500 yds is an acceptable distance for this 6mm bullet.

I personally find that my ethics distance (can I honestly make a clean shot) is much less that what the gun - caliber- bullet combo can do.

[pposey]

I know nothing about the .243,,, but shoot a slightly larger 7mm-08 alot, going 3100fps a 120 grain BT will hammer a deer from the barrel to 250 yards, closer in there will be more of a mess and a larger exit wound, farther out not as much,,, of course the 120BT is a tougher bullet than the 140 7mm BT,,,, and I know nothing about the .243BT,,,, do they make a .243 accubond??? That should be a good bullet, opens as fast as the BT but holds together better,

[pposey]

And I'm sure my 120BT load will take deer well way beyond 250,,,, thats just as far as I have used it.

[mountainam]

Ozark, In all seriousness your .243 Win in either " off the shelf" or reloaded hot rod stuff is capable of killing a whitetail a lot farther than most guys skill level permits. A Sierra 100 gr BTSP has the best B.C. of most non-custom bullets. But in my experience, 100 gr bullets don't seem to produce as large of wound channels as say a 90 gr Speer or 95gr Win-Nosler combined technologies do. Although, the 100's and 105's do penetrate considerably more. Personally, I would save those for some of the tougher animals like hogs or black bear or sheep. I use a 6mm Rem. and with handloads I get 3340 fps with a 90 gr Speer and the farthest shot that I've made to date lasered 322yds. Dropped him in his tracks. It blew a tennis ball sized hole through his spine at the neck-body junction. Berger still isn't shipping yet,but I'd like to wring out some of their 90 and 95VLD's in my rifle. That's the advantage of reloading. Store bought ammo limits you to the 80gr bullet which is a little iffy for big game and the 100 gr which is a bit too tough for a whitetail. And this is where some of the myths arise that it is an inadequate round for whitetails. I have a cousin that used a Youth Rem mod 7 .243 since he was 12 and 4' 10". Now he's 6'-3" has 48 deer under his belt and 4 bears and he told me all but one were 1 shot kills. He'll never use anything else but that Youth .243. He says it fits him better with his heavy clothes. I've found that most .243/6mm shooters are very good shooters. I think it's because they can shoot more for cheaper without the need for ice bags later. They tend to be more confident in their shots. And I think that those cartridges are the closest to being the perfect match for whitetails. I can't imagine using a larger caliber for a deer and getting any better performance.

[deadeye]

first off i find no reason why the core-lokts will not work out to 500yds if accurate in your rifle,however if i was to handload for whitetail in .243 i would start with these bullets,barnes tssx,berger hunting(very high bc & broad bullet weight range),nosler e-tip. link supplied for your viewing
www.barnesbullets.com/products/rifle/tipped-tsx-bullet/
www.bergerbullets.com/Products/Hunting%20Bullets.html
www.nosler.com/etipshowroom.htm

[lunchbox]

is the .243 and the 6mm the same thing?

[ozark]

Thanks deadeye, I don't reload or shoot enough to make doing so reasonable. lunchbox, They both shoot the same .243 dia. bullets but there is a slight difference in cartridge dimensions. The 6mm is claimed to be a little better. The 6mm came out with the mm name when there was a lot of resistance to using the mm designations. This was a Remington offer. Then Winchester came out with the Winchester .243 and although it was perhaps a bit inferior to the 6mm it caught on with the public and has sold like hotcakes since. Proof that a name makes a difference in sales. Both are great medium game getters and famous for accuracy. Over many years I have owned and hunted with about all the modern cartridges using over the counter ammo. I gradually seemed to drift toward smaller high velocity rifles and for the past several years used the .243. It is to me about as perfect for my type of hunting as it can get. Plenty of range, power and super accurate.
Mountainam, You have constructed a great commercial for the .243/6mm. I agree with you totally. These two are both the cats meow when it comes to delivering what the hunter needs and can use. As mentioned above, I have settled on the .243 (Never fired the 6mm) as my lifetime favorite cartridge. It has it all without the punishment and accuracy destroying recoil.

[spaniel]

The range at which the bullet will expand depends on the bullet and MV. I know some long range hunters who get good expansion on several different .243/6mm bullets (not corelokts) up to 500-600 yds. This is about where it loses effectiveness for deer with the heavy (105-115gr) bullets.

[ozark]

Spaniel, you mentioned:"Not Core Lokts" Please mention where they are inferior. Also, you mention the 105-115 grain bullets. I haven't seen them offered over the counter but they may well be in some places. I have some 100 grain Core Loke. My mentor furnished me with some 85 Grain loads that he felt was plenty adaquate. I agree that he is about as sharp on this stuff as anyone. My maximum range would be 200 yards and the aveage kill would be about 60-70 yards. I hunt where shots at 200 yards would be only in a couple of openings.

[cfvickers]

CorLokts are more than adequate in a .243 but Berger bullets are unreal!!! If, that is, you like a very large wound channel and make mostly ribcage shots. they don't open up till they hit the liquid in the chest cavity and in my 6.5 they leave a hole you can throw a baseball through from the mound. HUGE wound cavity. the jacket and core will most likely separate but it won't matter, the deer will be dead where he stood. Not yet completely convinced I would use them on very large game, but they are an outstanding on deer. Another I am hearing good things about in the Fusion. My dad sells ammo at gun shows and it has been his best seller during hunting season since its introduction. not overly expensive for a factory round either. I have a box of 120 grain 25-06 that I got from him and he gets 31.00 a box and my gun will put three in a ragged hole at 100 yards so I will try them next season. Definitely not going back to the accubond. He said he has had a few complaints on the premium ammo he has sold loaded with it saying it hasn't openned up well on deer, this was my experience as well.

[Jed]

Ozark,

Great question. It boils down to: What is the best bullet for short range shots? What is the best bullet for long range shots? IS that bullet the same bullet?

Admittedly, the answer is often NO, it's not the same bullet. As I've looked at the market trends the last few years, though, it seems that the manufacturers are realizing that the all-metal bullets (Barnes, Hornady GMX are two examples) are the closest to the best of both worlds. An all-copper bullet won't fragment on close shots when the bullet is at its maximum velocity; but they also fly well enough and maintain enough velocity to expand at distances farther than even good rifleman can make shots. They have a proven track record of deep penetration because they don't shed weight.

If I was in your shoes, I would be looking at the Federal Premium Vital Shock with the Barnes 85 grain TSX bullet. If it shot well in my gun, it'd be the ticket for your scenario.

(All that being said, I really don't think you can go wrong with the 100 gr. Core-Lokts. I was just trying to answer your question about bullet performance. Maybe all of the above is then a moot point.)

[cfvickers]

At velocities beyond 3,000 FPS an all copper bullet has been known to not expand at all and perform as any FMJ would at close range. It is definitely not for close range. I have shot/lost two deer personally with a .243 and 85 grain TSXs. It is a great choice for larger calibers but the 6mms definitely are not good at close range. Max impact velocity is intended to be around 3,000 to 3100. My deer were shot at 25 and 80 yards same effect. Light blood trail, over a mile no deer. In the 6.5 and .300 mag, I love them, just not in anything smaller than 6.5 I know of several that were lost with 100gr TSX from a .257 weatherby beyond 200 yards. I helped track them. We found one after about a half mile and it was hit perfect with a very small hole punched straight through. reduce the load and you would most likely be fine.

[deadon]

ozark,I have owned way too many rifles . After purchasing each one I would go out and buy every bullet made for that particular rifle and go shoot to see what it liked best, from 14.95 core locts to 40.00 a box of black hills gold. It is amazing to me but one mod 7600 Rem, one tika t3 ,one savage, one rem 700 all liked the rem core locts best. After all the money I spent on High dollar ammo all my rifles liked the cheapest , go figure.ALL BUT MY BABY, I have a win mod 70 243 that likes nothing made so I have to hand load. It shoots half inch groups with my hand load. More deer have been killed with the core loct than any bullet in history. The main thing as you know is bullet placement. I shoot at 50, 100, 150,200 250 and 300.and mark my pop up scope cover for quick reference. I feel that I am not capable of killing a deer at this time much over 300 yrd and that is on a calm day. If you know where your bullet is hitting at the different ranges you are hunting and can place that bullet where the cross hairs are, that core loct will get the job done ;D PS When the head drops The A@# always follows ;D

[Jed]

Apr 17, 2010 6:26:52 GMT -5 cfvickers said:

At velocities beyond 3,000 FPS an all copper bullet has been known to not expand at all and perform as any FMJ would at close range. It is definitely not for close range. I have shot/lost two deer personally with a .243 and 85 grain TSXs. It is a great choice for larger calibers but the 6mms definitely are not good at close range. Max impact velocity is intended to be around 3,000 to 3100. My deer were shot at 25 and 80 yards same effect. Light blood trail, over a mile no deer. In the 6.5 and .300 mag, I love them, just not in anything smaller than 6.5 I know of several that were lost with 100gr TSX from a .257 weatherby beyond 200 yards. I helped track them. We found one after about a half mile and it was hit perfect with a very small hole punched straight through. reduce the load and you would most likely be fine.

I haven't heard of this personally happening until you just shared with me...but I have limited experience, especially since I live in a shotgun/muzzleloader only state. We get to shoot .243s at coyotes, woodchucks, etc., not deer. Based on your statement, perhaps one should not use this bullet at these velocities. But I do think that the trend toward all-metal bullets (whether copper or otherwise) is an attempt by the industry to satisfy shooters who want the best of both worlds.

Again, as I stated at the beginning of my first post, the best 30 yard bullet is not always the best 250 yard bullet...somewhere a compromise has to be made, and I'm totally fine with that.

[spaniel]

Apr 12, 2010 21:37:44 GMT -5 ozark said:

Spaniel, you mentioned:"Not Core Lokts" Please mention where they are inferior. Also, you mention the 105-115 grain bullets. I haven't seen them offered over the counter but they may well be in some places. I have some 100 grain Core Loke. My mentor furnished me with some 85 Grain loads that he felt was plenty adaquate. I agree that he is about as sharp on this stuff as anyone. My maximum range would be 200 yards and the aveage kill would be about 60-70 yards. I hunt where shots at 200 yards would be only in a couple of openings.

You need to read my post again. I never said they were inferior, I said that people in the long range game do not use them. There is a difference, no? There are bullets with much better BC in the 105-115gr range and this is what is used. I also never said the heavy bullets like DTACs were available over the counter, anyone shooting that far is going to be handloading. Please quote me by what I write and not what is inferred.

[cfvickers]

Apr 17, 2010 18:31:12 GMT -5 Jed said:

Apr 17, 2010 6:26:52 GMT -5 cfvickers said:

At velocities beyond 3,000 FPS an all copper bullet has been known to not expand at all and perform as any FMJ would at close range. It is definitely not for close range. I have shot/lost two deer personally with a .243 and 85 grain TSXs. It is a great choice for larger calibers but the 6mms definitely are not good at close range. Max impact velocity is intended to be around 3,000 to 3100. My deer were shot at 25 and 80 yards same effect. Light blood trail, over a mile no deer. In the 6.5 and .300 mag, I love them, just not in anything smaller than 6.5 I know of several that were lost with 100gr TSX from a .257 weatherby beyond 200 yards. I helped track them. We found one after about a half mile and it was hit perfect with a very small hole punched straight through. reduce the load and you would most likely be fine.

I haven't heard of this personally happening until you just shared with me...but I have limited experience, especially since I live in a shotgun/muzzleloader only state. We get to shoot .243s at coyotes, woodchucks, etc., not deer. Based on your statement, perhaps one should not use this bullet at these velocities. But I do think that the trend toward all-metal bullets (whether copper or otherwise) is an attempt by the industry to satisfy shooters who want the best of both worlds.

Again, as I stated at the beginning of my first post, the best 30 yard bullet is not always the best 250 yard bullet...somewhere a compromise has to be made, and I'm totally fine with that.

If you think about it, you could get it down to the 3000, 3050 range and still have a good bit of range. It just isn't good to push them much beyond that if you want close range expansion.

[Jed]

cfvickers -

Reality is, not to many shots at game are going to present themselves beyond the MPBR of the .243 Win, which is about 280 yards or so, depending on actual load. The Barnes Bullet at 3000 fps would be great from 30-250 yards in this situation, as I would imagine the Hornady GMX also would be.

Personally, I believe that for shots longer than 225-250 yards or so, the hunter ought to use his skills and stalk closer. However, I will add that this is the GENERAL rule, and not absolute, because (like sheep hunting), there are some extenuating circumstances.