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Post by dougedwards on Jul 18, 2009 21:44:52 GMT -5
After waiting for over a year for my new custom 25 caliber Swinglock Muzzleloader it arrived on my front doorstep right before I was scheduled to go away on vacation. Drats!!!! I wanted to shoot this thing but didn't even have time to weigh out some loads. Thought I might show you guys some pictures of it anyway.  This rifle contains a 72 grain powder chamber and a useable 27 1/2" stainless Douglas barrel that has a black Duracoat application. The barrel is fluted to shave a little weight and has a screw on type of muzzle brake. The stock style is called a "Thumbover" which allows you to rest your thumb on top instead of in a hole. The color is Royal Jacaranda from Boyds.      The patented Swinglock operation is surely different as you actually swing out the trigger assembly to insert the 209 primer. Also notice the safety relief pop outs just above where the powder chamber is located. They will pop out at a 45 degree angle to the rifle if pressures were to reach over 100,000 psi due to a double load or some other operator error that would result in possible injury to rifle or person.   The scope is a Bushnell Elite 6500 4.5-30x50. Also notice the Dednutz scope mount which is made of very strong aircraft aluminum alloy which helps to lighten the weight of any already 15 pound rifle. This isn't a gun that I will be carrying on my back while climbing the mountainous terrain of western Virgina but should be a good stand gun.  A skinny little ramrod that fits into the stock.  A real shame not to be able to shoot this beauty right away but that will have to wait for a bit. But when I do I will post some targets and a report on how the gun feels and shoots. For now I will have to be satisfied to just look at it. Doug |
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Post by jims on Jul 18, 2009 22:03:47 GMT -5
;D Very interesting design and a fine looking ML. You should have taken that rifle along with you on vacation, then you would have had plenty of time to shoot it. That might not have went over well with the Mrs. however.
Keep us posted on how it shoots.
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Post by Dave W on Jul 18, 2009 22:44:06 GMT -5
Beautiful rifle!!
Can't wait to see a full report and some groups.
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Post by sagittarius on Jul 18, 2009 23:15:20 GMT -5
Doug, Glad you finally got her, congratulations ! I have been looking forward to seeing her and she's a beauty !  I know, you have to be excited.  She looks hell for strong built and should shoot lights out too. I think, I'm a little envious.  Look forward to hearing more about her and seeing some groups ! |
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Post by boarhog on Jul 18, 2009 23:33:33 GMT -5
Beautiful and interesting!! Gonna be hard to wait till you get back!
For many years, one of my favorite deer cartridges has been the old 257 Roberts. With various rifles of that caliber, I have harvested well over 100 deer, uncounted dozens of hogs, quite a few coyotes, feral cats and dogs, many crows, and a few squirrels. With the right bullets, your new Baby should do the job on more than varmints! I am curious what the rifling twist rate is on your barrel?
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Jul 19, 2009 7:03:03 GMT -5
Interesting project. What's the twist rate? Did the mfr do any testing or recommend certain powders or bullets? If the "safety" valves "pop" out is the barrel toasted?
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Post by dave d. on Jul 19, 2009 8:14:56 GMT -5
:)doug congrats on your absolute beautiful rifle.so now you have a 1000yrd deer so you will be expected to show some targets at that range ;D.best of luck with it.
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Post by edge on Jul 19, 2009 9:36:41 GMT -5
Very nice looking and an interesting design.
What bullets and loads are you planning?
edge.
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bird
Button Buck
Take a kid hunting, their smile makes it all worth while.
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Post by bird on Jul 19, 2009 9:43:13 GMT -5
Sharp looking rig
Bird
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Post by dannoboone on Jul 19, 2009 10:50:20 GMT -5
Being a wood lover, all I can say is WOW, beautiful! Being a "lefty",
well....
"Varmint muzzleloader" ya say? Upon reading it has a 72gr
chamber, my immediate thought was there is no way to get
that much powder in my .25-06 cases.....this guy has gone for
.257 Weatherby Magnum power! Checked the Hornady Handbook
and sure enough. Although there are probably wildcats out there
with more case capacity, the .275 Weatherby is the only
production cartridge listed with a case capacity the size of this
"Varmint muzzleloader"!
The Weatherby can push a 75gr bullet safely to 3800fps, the
87gr to 3600, 100gr to 3500fps, 117gr to 3300fps, and the
120gr to 3200fps. It's also known to be a good 400-500yd
(and probably beyond) deer/antelope rifle. This "Varmint
muzzleloader", if an immediate seal can be attained upon
powder ignition, if it is accurate, will have to have down range
ballistics close to the Weatherby!
Varmint rifle? Oh, yes! Deer rifle? Only laws prohibiting it would
keep this rifle from such a possibility!
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Post by sagittarius on Jul 19, 2009 10:59:47 GMT -5
Doug's new rifle would be legal in my state of Ky which has no limit on muzzleloader calibers.
d**n shame, Doug can't deer hunt with it in his state as it would kill any Whitetail stone dead.
Some of the officials in other states need to be enlightened !
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Post by edge on Jul 19, 2009 11:15:26 GMT -5
Being a wood lover, all I can say is WOW, beautiful! Being a "lefty", well.... "Varmint muzzleloader" ya say? Upon reading it has a 72gr chamber, my immediate thought was there is no way to get that much powder in my .25-06 cases SNIP I'll pass on the "wood lover" comment, but I think that the 72 grain chamber is probably "water capacity" which will yield considerably less of most powders....but I have been wrong before edge. |
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Post by dannoboone on Jul 19, 2009 11:35:44 GMT -5
edge, I'm almost always in favor of you being correct. Guess I'll have to make an exception this time. ;D ;D We'll just have to wait til Doug gets back.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2009 13:12:44 GMT -5
my friend has a swinglock and its almost a bet that 72 grn chamber is powder cap, tom post likes to build ( hot rods) but he always does extensive testing before shipping a gun. If his 25 is anything like Mr Bills 45 it is a very impressive build and will shoot as good as it looks.......Bill
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Post by dougedwards on Jul 19, 2009 15:35:07 GMT -5
Well Jim, I am in trouble now. My wife is wondering when we can ever take a vacation away from my guns. I took along the new Swinglock, some boxes of powders and a digital scale whick isn't all that reliable for precision but I didn't want to bring along my balance scale because of all the parts.
In haste I quickly knurled whole boxes of 100 and 120 grain Speer Hot Cores as well as a box of 75 grain Sierra flat based varmit bullets (when I should have been loading the car for travel). The Douglas barrel has a 1/10 twist rate and is capable of stablizing 120 grainers. Tom Post of Swinglock was shooting the 120 Hornady flat based bullets to 3300 fps and the 75 grainers to 4000 fps! I have chosen to tone the loads down a bit. Pressures build in these smaller caliber rifles in much different ratios than we are accustomed to experience in the larger calibers. I just want to keep it safe and also prolong the life of the barrel. If I ever do anything stupid such as double loading or shooting my ramrod, the safety valve pop outs will dislodge if pressures build to dangerous levels but no damage should occur to rifle or shooter. However the gun would have to ship back to Swinglock to have other plugs inserted.
Tom has provided me with a manual which lists maximum loads with several different powders for respective bullet weights and we have talked by phone concerning the capability of the rifle which has a 6.5mm bore. This rifle was built for safety, but like any rifle, it has it's limits. During testing of a particular load with this rifle, just the addition of a lubed felt wad increased pressures almost 10,000 psi according to Tom. He has advised me not to experiment with loads unless he has put the load to testing in his test rifle of the same caliber and has found that the load falls within safe parameters. Sounds like sound advice to me.
Although the state of Virginia has a miminum limit of 45 caliber for muzzleloaders during that special deer hunting season, the limit is 23 caliber for whitetail deer season where rifles are allowed. All of the hunting territory that I usually hunt allows rifle use for deer and I most often hunt on private land. Although I have called this a "varmit muzzleloader" because of it's capability as a small game rifle it also is more than capable of putting down deer sized animals using very powerful loads. I just wouldn't be lugging this 15 pound rifle very far. However the rifle balances surprisingly well which suprised me because of the long barrel. I would have thought it would be rather front heavy.
As far as the powder chamber is concerned I really don't know how the 72 grain measurement was ascertained. I do know that the bullet is stopped at the throat of the chamber by a small constriction and doesn't make contact with the powder the way it would in the Savage. One suggested maximum load for 120 gr bullets is 63 grains of Reloder 17 which has a similar burn rate to H4350 and has projected 120 grain Hornady Interlocks to 3426 fps in this particular rifle. As Dannoboone has said, accuracy will depend on how well the rifle and load can influence the bullet to obturate and seal the hot gases produced during ignition. It seems that when going to lighter loads the faster burning powders perform best. 44 grains of IMR3031 produces 2760 with the same bullet.
My lovely wife is giving me the eye now but more to come after I get the chance to shoot. ;D
Doug
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Post by Richard on Jul 19, 2009 15:51:53 GMT -5
Douge.......good luck with it. Can't wait to see the results.
Richard
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Post by Dave W on Jul 19, 2009 17:50:19 GMT -5
Doug, how difficult is it to remove the BP?
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Post by dougedwards on Jul 19, 2009 18:18:21 GMT -5
Dave.......it is more difficult than it is to do with a bolt action rifle. The action and barrel must be disconnected from the stock by backing out three screws and the primer holder, then by quickly disconnecting the Swinglock trigger mechanism. After the stock is dislodged from the action a 3/8 hex head wrench removes the breach plug but then you still have the module to remove which is like a vent liner of sorts in the Savage and that is done with a special tool supplied by Swinglock. It seems to take about twice as much time to do than with the Savage 10ML but I am just getting started getting to know the rifle.
Doug
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Post by Dave W on Jul 19, 2009 20:14:07 GMT -5
Thanks Doug. Another question. I know from a conversation with Tom he is not a fan of the MLII BP length. How long is the flame channel and plug length?
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Post by encoreguy on Jul 19, 2009 23:02:43 GMT -5
Absolutely beautiful gun! Congratulations and I cannot wait to see some shooting results. I have been hoping someone on here would get one of Tom's guns and give us a report.
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Post by chuck41 on Jul 20, 2009 8:52:48 GMT -5
Fabulously beautiful rifle. Looking forward to hearing how it shoots.
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Post by Chris Champion on Jul 20, 2009 13:26:55 GMT -5
Great looking gun, Doug. I'm sure it was worth the wait.
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Post by dougedwards on Jul 20, 2009 21:58:18 GMT -5
I weighed out some charges on an electronic digital scale today but am not sure where I will shoot my new rifle. Hopefully I will have some time tomorrow to search for a site. Dave.......below you will see the Swinglock breech plug with an arrow pointing to the crevice where the primer holder tube enters the plug and onto the module which acts like a vent liner. This breech plug is very substantial and heavy.  [A comparison of the size of the 25 caliber Swinglock plug and the 50 caliber Savage plug. The module is attached to the Swinglock breech plug. Another picture of the unattached module.   This is the massive 3/8 hex head wrench to disengage the breech plug from the action.  And another specialty tool for the module removal which is used with an adjustable wrench.  The procedure of the total break-down of the rifle takes some time but I should get accustomed to it. It seems that all of the internal parts to this Swinglock are heavily built even the tools used to dismantle. My Necessity Bag is already heavy enough without adding these tools but I guess I will just have to get stronger or either clean the bag of all that is not absolutely necessary. More reporting to come........... Doug |
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Post by dougedwards on Jul 21, 2009 16:24:56 GMT -5
I have a friend who has some property in the mountains of Virginia who has allowed me to set up a place to shoot. This guy is 80 years old and puts me to shame climbing up and down the terrain. He took me trout fishing yesterday and we each caught over 20 rainbow and brown trout the largest being a 21 inch rainbow. Was a good day! Today I set up a make shift rest and placed a large piece of cardboard against a small pine tree with a fluorescent dot stuck in the middle at 100 paces (I also left my range finder at home). The whole set-up was all rather crude but I just wanted to shoot the new muzzleloader. It is obvious that I am a novice at this sabotless shooting as I evidently over-knurled the 120 and 100 grain Speer Grand Slams because I was only able to push them into the muzzle with the bullet starter and then tried to push the rest of the way with the ramrod. It wouldn't budge so I put gloves on and pushed as hard as I could and the ramrod broke. I was so frustrated but luckily I brought along my Rem 700 in .243 with the cleaning rod and managed to push the bullet BACK out through the breech end. Tom Post is developing a stronger type of ramrod for me and I should be receiving it soon. On a positive note, the 75 grain Sierra Game Kings which were also knurled at the same time with the others, fit very nicely down the bore to my surprise. After reassembling the rifle (the stock must be detached from the barreled action to get into the breech area). I inserted the load of 62 gr IMR4064, lubed felt wad, copper gas check and the 75 gr Game King bullet pushed down with ease with just the cleaning rod. The picture below taken with my camera phone was the result of 6 shots taken off a very unsteady rest.  Although not the tightest group of the century I am pleased with it for my first outing with the new gun. My powder charges were weighed on a very imprecise electronic scale and I suppose that the charges had about 1/2 grain deviation. After the first shot I was able to get somewhat steady with the blankets that I had set up for a rest but still had to overcome some wobble-wobble. There were no fliers and I must say that this is one sweet shooting rifle. The air being pushed back at me from the muzzle brake was startling at first but the muzzle did not jump at all and I continued to keep the target in sight throughout the shot. I didn't wait for over a year and pay as much as I did to develop a 100 yard gun but this is a good start I think. Although Dave Daub has in jest deemed this to be a 1000 yard deer rifle I am actually hoping for maybe 1.5-1.75 MOA at 500 yards. The rifle may be capable but I am not sure about the shooter. However it all shakes out I am sure that I will be having a lot of fun with it. I guess I will have to buy more boxes of the .257 bullets in 120 and 110 or 117 grain unless anyone knows how to unknurl bullets. Any ideas?? Doug |
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Post by rangeball on Jul 21, 2009 16:28:13 GMT -5
Doug, I've often wondered if you could roll them between two hard surfaces to "mush" the knurl back down...
Maybe worth a shot.
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Post by jims on Jul 21, 2009 16:33:46 GMT -5
Doug: The ramrod will be on the thin side since it cannot be any bigger than a quarter inch, hard loading could cause breakage/bending. I am only getting started sabotless but it can be a problem of sorts, I also have stuck bullets partially down the bore and then some are so loose as not to almost work. Just a few ten thousandths can make quite a difference as does the bullet construction, lead core or all copper. Thus I will try sabots again in the future.
I have had a 25-06 for over 47 years, some like the 100 grain bullets for deer. Another bullet to consider. Enjoy your vacation and keep us posted.
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Jul 21, 2009 17:23:01 GMT -5
Obviously a great start. You guys are really taking things up a notch.
So....lobbing fat 300 grain bullets at 2500 fps from a ML is now "back in the day" ;D ;D
Who's going to make me a .17 ML that shoots 5000fps?
Doug, that is one awesome muzzleloader!
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Post by dave d. on Jul 21, 2009 18:42:52 GMT -5
:)doug do you have some kind of sizing die?if you do you could just run them back threw the die.
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Post by Richard on Jul 21, 2009 18:56:06 GMT -5
Very nice group Douge............! I would guess you pretty much have to shoot flat-base bullets? Could be some what of a drawback at those longer yardages??? Definitely looks like a fun toy to play with. Good luck with it.
Richard
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Post by edge on Jul 21, 2009 18:58:35 GMT -5
Very impressive Obviously your powder does not get 100% fill. I like that idea. As long as you get good ignition you can control pressure just like in a cartridge. edge. |
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