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Post by lwh723 on Nov 29, 2015 8:19:23 GMT -5
Hey, guys, don't have the time to make a lengthy post out of this, but wanted to show just how loose you can go with the 209 and still get ignition. Would I recommend loading like this on a consistent basis? 0f course not, but it goes to show that the 209 systems can easily ignite a very loose fitting bullet. So without further ado, here's a video showing ignition with a bullet that went 4" down the barrel before I even hit it with the ramrod. Also, here's a picture of my primers using the contact fit on the nose of the primer. Spotless!  |
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Post by rambler on Nov 29, 2015 8:41:26 GMT -5
Luke, do you prefer those CCI magnum primers?? Nice video
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2015 9:18:56 GMT -5
Great video Luke thanks for taking the time to show us how well your new plug works.
Do you feel it's your new plug that makes the difference on single powder loads or do you you feel you could achieve the same results with the old style savage plug also? Or do you feel it could be the CCI mag primers instead of Winchester primers?
I have several reason I want to upgrade my setup but one of them is so I can shoot single powder loads.
Thanks for your post! Glad to see your ready for deer season!
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Post by 7mmfreak on Nov 29, 2015 9:39:49 GMT -5
I think it's a combo of plug and primer. His plug is like a long NULA plug with a bushing and coarser threads. That plug design is very good and a short version would be even better. The Federal primers work well in my gun also with loose loading pressure.
Good video, Luke.
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Post by Dave W on Nov 29, 2015 10:33:22 GMT -5
Thanks Luke for the video.
Different animal altogether, but with Coles .375, which had the Savage plug, I sized bullets pretty loose, one handed seating. The only misfires I had were with N150, which burns very clean, and seating resistance got even looser with that powder with a freshly cleaned barrel. With Lukes plug, no misfires with N150 and a slightly smaller bushing and a loose fit in my gun.
Guy is sizing very loose with his .375, which also has Luke's plug, think the slowest burning powders he has shot were Rel. 25 and N160. No misfires to this point.
That said, if you look at some of the traces in the "I" section, TG did some seating resistance traces with various bushings, powders, full form, smooth sized, etc., with a Savage plug. Ignition was not an issue, but it raised questions for me about pressure sensitive powders, and does FF sizing offer an ignition advantage?
So many variables with this hobby, makes it hard to pinpoint where and what has an advantage over something else.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2015 11:03:14 GMT -5
Well I've been talking to another board member who feels a straight load of 3031 should ignite. The thing is I have the savage plug with larger flange channel and the .040 bushing shooting smooth sized 300 SST and I knurled them back up for a snug fit. The other thing is I am using my cardboard wads that measure .467 which I'm hoping give it that extra seal for sure ignition. Going out today to see what happens.
With Luke's video it pushes me more towards a new barrel with the new plug. Yes the duplex works great and I'm a one shot one kill kinda of guy however it would be very nice to shoot single loads. If that means I need to get a new set up with Luke's plug well hmm.
Also found CCI mag primers couple weeks ago and going to use those for today's shooting. I've always used Win209 primers so wonder if that's the difference also.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2015 11:06:12 GMT -5
Forgot to mention I keep getting sticky primers and hope I can resolve that issue also. Makes a follow up shot harder.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2015 17:15:28 GMT -5
Great demonstration Luke, thanks for taking the time to make the visual aid for us. Good luck with the new rifle
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Post by subcalshooter on Nov 29, 2015 21:20:00 GMT -5
Well I've been talking to another board member who feels a straight load of 3031 should ignite. The thing is I have the savage plug with larger flange channel and the .040 bushing shooting smooth sized 300 SST and I knurled them back up for a snug fit. The other thing is I am using my cardboard wads that measure .467 which I'm hoping give it that extra seal for sure ignition. Going out today to see what happens. With Luke's video it pushes me more towards a new barrel with the new plug. Yes the duplex works great and I'm a one shot one kill kinda of guy however it would be very nice to shoot single loads. If that means I need to get a new set up with Luke's plug well hmm. Also found CCI mag primers couple weeks ago and going to use those for today's shooting. I've always used Win209 primers so wonder if that's the difference also. I shot ALOT of straight 3031 loads this summer in my 40's, with a savage plug, 5/32 flame channel, .030 bushing. Never had a hiccup or misfire. Idk about cold temps what it would do. But I bet it'd go bang.. |
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Post by Richard on Nov 29, 2015 21:40:22 GMT -5
I have two rifles now with Luke's plug and am very happy with them. One thing that should be noted in Luke's video is the fact that he was full forming the bullets. By the nature of full forming, there is an amount of resistance built into the system due to the bullet having to twist to get going. If you were land riding and it was that loose, it could be a little different? I had an "almost"(velocity down very low and flames coming out the muzzle) misfire the other week even with a duplex where the land rider was very loose. Maybe it was that Win. 209 was not hot enough along with the .028 bushing hole. Just a point to ponder. BTW, no sticky primers other than when I used the CCI Mag primer with the straight 70 gr. H-4198 load.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2015 21:46:12 GMT -5
You are still getting some stickies with a .028 and Luke's plug? The new plug solved a lot of that for the guns I've shot a few rounds out of.
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Post by subcalshooter on Nov 29, 2015 21:59:37 GMT -5
Good video Luke. Like Dave stated, I'm using ur plug in my 375, and the first 25 or 30 shots, the bullets basically fell to the powder charge, I was using wool wads which I'm sure helped a little, but I was shooting really slow powders compared to the 45 and even 40 shooters and I had no ignition problems at all, I use Fed 209a primers. Also, I've had no leakage and no sticky primers at all, at least to this point.
Today's testing I tightened the bullets up one notch, they still loaded really easy, basically 2 fingers on the rod shoved them down, and again I had perfect ignition, lighting N160 and H4350.
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Post by lwh723 on Nov 30, 2015 7:33:11 GMT -5
Pretty busy over this way, but here goes on replies. Keith, A shorter flame path was discussed. I didn't want to go any shorter because primer bulging can become an issue with the reduced expansion area. Chad, I think it has more to do with a perfect seal on the primer vs the perfect seal on the BP. A leaky seal on the front of the Savage BP can't help things, but I think leaking at the primer is a bigger deal. I never had trouble igniting singles with a Savage BP as long as my primer pocket wasn't leaking. Fed 209A and CCI209M are definitely hotter than W209 primers. So that can make a big difference. Richard, I did the same experiment yesterday with smooth sized 250gr XTP's. Had them sized to where weight of the ramrod would seat them. Only took 6 shoots. 2 with veggie wads, and 4 without. The 2 veggie wad shots clocked at about 2750 FPS with an ES of 20. The no wad loads clocked anywhere from 2500-2660. I did have one fireball, but that was with a bullet that basically just seated itself on the powder. It was fun to show you guys what I've been seeing with 209's. It's also good to see others have been having similar results. Gun 1 starts next week here in Iowa. Hopefully I tag a big one. : For now I need to get back to putting MZ's together. Carlos is going to be all over my case if he sees I've been playing while he's waiting on his MZ.  |
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Post by 7mmfreak on Dec 1, 2015 7:28:14 GMT -5
Luke,
I don't think it must be shorter and I understand your reasons for the plug length. Mike and I have discussed this plug since you first started working on it. I think you have the best plug out there for turn-key guns.
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Post by cuda on Dec 1, 2015 8:43:13 GMT -5
Luke where did you use the shim stock? I must have missed it.
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Post by bcarmon on Dec 2, 2015 12:49:04 GMT -5
I have a similar question. Are you putting the shims on the sealing face of the breech plug or are you putting shims in the primer pocket?
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Post by esshup on Dec 2, 2015 13:02:31 GMT -5
Luke, I know it's not apples to apples, but I had some shotgun loads pressure tested a number of years ago. The only difference in the loads was the primer that was used. Fed 209A primer was hotter than the CCI209M primer according to the testing company. No FPS was given but the pressure was 11,500 psi average for the load with the CCI209M primer, and 13,500 psi average for the Fed 209A primer if memory is correct.
In my shotgun loading/shooting observations, that agreed with what I was seeing, and both are hotter than the Win 209 primers. Win 209 and standard CCI 209 primers were about the same, Rem 209 primers were cooler than Win primers.
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Post by lwh723 on Dec 2, 2015 13:32:28 GMT -5
Cuda/bcarmon, the shims go in the bottom of the primer pocket.
Esshup, good information to know. I've had several customers that tried Remington primers with very poor ignition, so that matches your data too.
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Post by bcarmon on Dec 2, 2015 14:50:15 GMT -5
Ok, thanks for the info. You don't have any issues with them falling out?
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Post by lwh723 on Dec 2, 2015 14:57:33 GMT -5
Ok, thanks for the info. You don't have any issues with them falling out? I've only shot dozens of shots, not 100's, but so far not really. I did have one gun that lost one but the pocket was really loose, and I was only using one 0.005 shim. I had to pop a 0.030 out of one, and it was pretty challenging to get it out, so not really too concerned about them going anywhere. I think lakeplains and danno used a little loctite on theirs. That probably wouldn't be a bad idea. |
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Post by GMB54-120 on Dec 2, 2015 15:01:41 GMT -5
Ive got a bushing plug coming i got 2nd hand. I normally just use Win209s in my OEM Savage plug but im going to shim the bushing plug for Fed209As if needed. Its a fairly common fix in Knight's bare primer systems when someone wants to use a shorter primer than the Win209. Im a firm believer that less blowby=more ignition energy to the powder. One less variable to consider and a cleaner breach. I love it when i see this.  |
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Post by rangeball on Dec 2, 2015 19:22:57 GMT -5
How is the shim different than simply establishing head space with the primer you intend to use?
I shoot the Fed209a, one of the longest available, do I need a shim?
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Post by moto357 on Dec 2, 2015 19:32:45 GMT -5
With the primers that I have at least, the fed209a are about .005" shorter than my win209's
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Post by Richard on Dec 2, 2015 19:59:40 GMT -5
Your bolt face can only push the primer in so far. What they are talking about is the space underneath the primer. On both my gun s with Luke's plug, I have kept the inside diameter as tight as possible to the sealing takes place on the sides of the primer. If you have gotten the inside diameter too loose by over honing it, then you may need to use the shim underneath to help the sealing.
Luke.........you might want to show a picture of the shim you are using and how it fits? What material are you using? Brass, SS, steel? You cutting it with a punch of some sort? Might clear up some confusion?
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Post by smokeeter on Dec 3, 2015 10:09:59 GMT -5
Is the shim basically a washer that fits in the bottom of the primer pocket? The pocket on our plugs has a slight taper which provides a crush fit with the primer regardless of which primer is being used and provides a perfect seal with no blowback.
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Post by oneshotike on Dec 3, 2015 10:52:56 GMT -5
Boy I'm glad I don't need shims in my gun.
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Post by lwh723 on Dec 3, 2015 10:57:15 GMT -5
Boy I'm glad I don't need shims in my gun. You're a troll. |
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Post by lwh723 on Dec 3, 2015 11:03:01 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2015 11:22:41 GMT -5
The shims are simply precision washers that are easily installed in the primer pocket of Luke's plug to allow it to work in the widest variety of guns of any plug on the market. One plug, 209 primers, and user friendly DO IT YOURSELF adjustments. You don't have to have 16 different plugs, 7 different modules, and only one way of doing things to be the cool kid.
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Post by markb317 on Dec 3, 2015 12:43:57 GMT -5
I have one of the plugs that Luke sold that had the shim in it. The shim that was in my plug in .090 long x .241 diameter and is .175" from the face to the rim of the primer pocket.
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