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Post by Falcons_Fan on Sept 16, 2015 16:19:31 GMT -5
Hello everyone - many years ago I purchased a Savage 10ML-ii (pre-accutrigger) from a dealer in Georgia. For about the last 10 years it's just been sitting in the safe, it's likely not been fired 50 times. I recently sold the firearm on Gunbroker and it was returned to me because the gentleman that purchased it said the end of the barrel looks like someone used a drill and ground out the riflings. Needless to say, I was quite surprised because I certainly didn't do this and it was purchased from a gun dealer new - who has since closed (around 2010). Serial number indicates the rifle was made in 2001.
Is it possible the "quick load" style loading was done from the factory or did I purchase a new "modified" rifle many years ago? I can't seem to find and answer one way or the other and I called Savage and the person on the phone basically said they didn't know but would have someone contact me.
At this point, I'm just wanting to know for my own knowledge because I'd hate to think that 1) I bought something that was modified by bubba and didn't know and 2) that I sold said rifle that someone butchered.
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Post by rangeball on Sept 16, 2015 16:25:16 GMT -5
Going from memory, I think they did initially offer that feature but had to stop do to threats from TC.
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Post by Falcons_Fan on Sept 16, 2015 16:41:59 GMT -5
That would make sense. I'm just looking for information because I'd like to sell the firearm but I don't want to have another experience where someone returns the item when to the best of my knowledge it was being sold as it was purchased (short of me adding a rifle basix trigger to it).
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2015 16:52:00 GMT -5
Try listing it on the buy section here someone here might really want it. Good luck.
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Post by Falcons_Fan on Sept 16, 2015 17:11:27 GMT -5
True - but at this point, I'm just trying to understand what I have to offer any disclaimers that might need to be associated with it. I've always prided myself in trying to accurately describe things to be fair to all parties involved. I've sold quite a few guns online and this is the first time I've had a dissatisfied buyer. If a buyer isn't happy then neither am I, just looking for the intel to share accordingly. I'll be the first to admit, I'm a bit of a fish out of water when it comes to muzzle loaders.
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Post by rlp10ml on Sept 16, 2015 17:19:15 GMT -5
I bought a brand new Pre-Accutrigger MLII in March of 2003 and it did have the "Quick Load Barrel" on it........Hope this helps
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Post by edge on Sept 16, 2015 17:32:56 GMT -5
Personally I never would have given their money back!
Those rifles had a QL from the factory and you did not misrepresent in any manner...IMO.
edge
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Post by lttac on Sept 16, 2015 20:39:47 GMT -5
I'd love to have it send me a pm with asking price and contact information
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Post by jims on Sept 16, 2015 21:02:54 GMT -5
I have an early Savage ML and it had the muzzle Quick Load feature. I actually like it and mine shoots quite well.
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Post by rossman40 on Sept 17, 2015 8:53:07 GMT -5
Only the first production run of the 10ML-II had the QLA. They are easy to spot, black synthetic stocks and they did not have the fiber optic sights which were added on the second run. SNs should be in the 7000 to 11000 range.
The problem with the QLA was they were not always straight and a lot got sent back with accuracy issues and the barrels were replaced with barrels that did not have the QLA. The goal was to remove just the rifling lands for about the first 1-1.5" but the counterbore was not always straight with the bore. A little off didn't hurt but some had a crescent looking step where the counterbore stopped that was pretty deep into the groove on one side.
I have to question Savage's dates, IIRC I got my 10ML-II just before Xmas 2000 and they showed off the 10ML-II at the 2001 SHOT Show which was in January.
It could be worse, I had a customer buy one just a few months ago and it had a severely bulged barrel.
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Post by rlp10ml on Sept 17, 2015 14:25:03 GMT -5
Only the first production run of the 10ML-II had the QLA. They are easy to spot, black synthetic stocks and they did not have the fiber optic sights which were added on the second run. SNs should be in the 7000 to 11000 range. The problem with the QLA was they were not always straight and a lot got sent back with accuracy issues and the barrels were replaced with barrels that did not have the QLA. The goal was to remove just the rifling lands for about the first 1-1.5" but the counterbore was not always straight with the bore. A little off didn't hurt but some had a crescent looking step where the counterbore stopped that was pretty deep into the groove on one side. I have to question Savage's dates, IIRC I got my 10ML-II just before Xmas 2000 and they showed off the 10ML-II at the 2001 SHOT Show which was in January. It could be worse, I had a customer buy one just a few months ago and it had a severely bulged barrel. I apologize and stand corrected.I dug out the receipt for my Pre-Accutrigger 10ML II Muzzleloader and it was purchased 4/30/02 not March of '03 like I thought.......It did indeed have the "QLA" barrel on it but mine was a Laminate/Stainless Gun with Fiber Optic Sights and it's serial # was M011380........I paid a whopping $489.99 + $39.20 Tax for it brand new! |
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Post by jims on Sept 17, 2015 15:10:03 GMT -5
I would generally not disagree with Ken as I know I would be wrong 99% of the time but likewise my first MLII with serial # MO 11401 has the QLA, in stainless and a wood laminate stock and had the fiber optic open sights. Perhaps they were a limited run. Mine also was around the $500 amount. Apparently mine was only about 21 apart from rllp10ml. Perhaps made the same day.
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Post by onebentarrow on Sept 17, 2015 17:46:32 GMT -5
Wow, I feel luckey because I got a ml 11 package deal new with acc u triger scope and excresseries for $385
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Post by Falcons_Fan on Sept 17, 2015 21:38:55 GMT -5
Interesting gentlemen. So it sounds like I'm not crazy - it was once something that came from the factory. I appreciate the replies.
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Post by rossman40 on Sept 17, 2015 22:59:12 GMT -5
You have to remember Savage is a company that was famous for not throwing anything away. Left over 10ML-Is were reworked as single shot CFs. The laminated stocks came out with the second production run. They could have reworked leftover first run 10ML-IIs that were still at the factory with laminate stocks to quickly fill a order. I know I was tempted to buy a laminate stocked 10ML-II and my rifle wasn't even a year old.
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Post by Falcons_Fan on Sept 18, 2015 10:26:03 GMT -5
rossman40 - I've heard they were selling some M99 rifles years after production had officially stopped by parts that were left over. If you guys knew how much I paid for this 10 ml-ii, I think you'd say "dang".
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Post by pposey on Sept 18, 2015 16:05:44 GMT -5
My savage ML2 had the flat rear and the QLA
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Post by lep999 on Sept 18, 2015 18:56:36 GMT -5
I have a savage ML2 that has the QLA and was bought for 255.00 on clearance at Natchez Shooters Supplies in 2005
black tupperware stock and blued
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Sept 18, 2015 19:31:30 GMT -5
Falcons Fan,
"...I recently sold the firearm on Gunbroker and it was returned to me because the gentleman that purchased it said the end of the barrel looks like someone used a drill and ground out the riflings."
Yes, you describe exactly what it looks like. I have an old Flat top rear receiver ML10 with a serial number in the 9000's IIRC (Don't feel like digging it out of the safe to verify that)
Muzzle end looks ugly and I swore that was why I couldn't get it to shoot. But...that was in the old days where we were using the wrong powders in way too much charge weights and using extra wads to contain the pressure and protect the sabot.
Now, using .458 bullets and BCR sabots and straight loads of H4198, this gun will shoot 325 FTX bullets at 2,500 fps and group very well....most of all, consistently. With very light loads of 4759 and heavy flat nose bullets...same thing.
The "QLA" is a huge treat in terms of field loading under presuure when you are freezing cold along with your components and gun. Still appreciate that today when we go after does hard in late season. Too bad Savage was infringing on a patent of another maker or they probably would have kept that feature. You described it perfectly. Looks like they drilled it out while still leaving a smidgeon of rifling and leaving all the tooling marks.
Having this "condition" does not mean that this gun won't shoot and if you want to sell it, someone would gladly take it off your hands I'm sure.
For your average deer hunter, there is no better set up than this. It's a killing machine with enough power to kill big bears. Want a tack driving custom build to poke holes at 600 yds? Go see Hank or someone else that builds .40 or .45's and shoot sabotless Want to kill everything you shoot at in the woods under 200 yds? You probably are already there with some load experimenting......and very little investment.
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Post by rjhans53 on Sept 20, 2015 13:52:04 GMT -5
Late to the game here but my savage has a flat top and a qla, I really like it and no it's not a tack driver but probably minute of coyote at 200
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Post by miketodd58 on Sept 23, 2015 17:06:35 GMT -5
Falcons Fan, "...I recently sold the firearm on Gunbroker and it was returned to me because the gentleman that purchased it said the end of the barrel looks like someone used a drill and ground out the riflings." Yes, you describe exactly what it looks like. I have an old Flat top rear receiver ML10 with a serial number in the 9000's IIRC (Don't feel like digging it out of the safe to verify that) Muzzle end looks ugly and I swore that was why I couldn't get it to shoot. But...that was in the old days where we were using the wrong powders in way too much charge weights and using extra wads to contain the pressure and protect the sabot. Now, using .458 bullets and BCR sabots and straight loads of H4198, this gun will shoot 325 FTX bullets at 2,500 fps and group very well....most of all, consistently. With very light loads of 4759 and heavy flat nose bullets...same thing. The "QLA" is a huge treat in terms of field loading under presuure when you are freezing cold along with your components and gun. Still appreciate that today when we go after does hard in late season. Too bad Savage was infringing on a patent of another maker or they probably would have kept that feature. You described it perfectly. Looks like they drilled it out while still leaving a smidgeon of rifling and leaving all the tooling marks. Having this "condition" does not mean that this gun won't shoot and if you want to sell it, someone would gladly take it off your hands I'm sure. For your average deer hunter, there is no better set up than this. It's a killing machine with enough power to kill big bears. Want a tack driving custom build to poke holes at 600 yds? Go see Hank or someone else that builds .40 or .45's and shoot sabotless Want to kill everything you shoot at in the woods under 200 yds? You probably are already there with some load experimenting......and very little investment. Its great to hear some positive things being said about the Factory Production Savage. I was pretty shocked when I first came to this board looking for load advice and saw the words Tomato Stakes and Crappy Barrels being thrown around when describing the Savage MLII. I had practically zero to little load development to get to min of deer and with a bit of tweaking with sabots and bullets got it down to MOA with very little bit of frustration. Your right. I cannot think of a better set up for your average deer hunter. Its a great system. |
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Sept 23, 2015 18:59:11 GMT -5
To Miketodd and everyone else:
The stock Savage, for the most part, is an awesome every days man ML. It shoots good enough out of the box to make vital hits on deer with most powders and bullet/sabot combo's easily out to 200 yds. Yes there are some horror stories but they are not the norm.
The current SML guys are onto the super builds that are meant to drive tacks like a BR gun and they DO IT! The sub calibers are getting all the press and that's fine. But never discount the stock savage, and the benefits of smokeless regarding cleaning, no patching between shots and killing every deer you shoot at with average loads. These loads are still very powerful compared to a BP inline!!! And the average guy with a few pointers can get quite a bit ahead of the BP guys with this gun right out of the box.
This is the gun that started it all and should garner a high degree of respect!
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