Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2015 12:20:22 GMT -5
FOR 2 YEARS NOW I HAVE HAD TROUBLE GETTING THE PRIMERS TO COME OUT OF THE FACE OF THE BOLT AFTER FIRING.IT HAS THE 209 BARE PRIMER SYSTEM.I HAVE TO ROLL THE GUN OVER AND SMACK THE SIDE OF THE STOCK ABOUT 4-6 TIMES OR TAKE NEEDLE NOSE PLIARS TO PULL IT OUT.I HAVE USED REMINGTON STS PRIMERS,WINCHESTER TRIPLE 7 209 PRIMERS AND FIOCCHI PRIMERS AND STILL HAVE THE SAME RESULTS.I HAVE SENT THE BOLT AND B.P TO SABOT LOADER IN IDAHO AND HE PUT A SS WASHER IN THE BP WITH NO LUCK AND I SENT IT BACK TO SAM THE GUN SMITH AT KNIGHT MZL AND IT WAS SENT BACK WITH NOTHING DONE TO IT.I HAVE HAD A GUNSMITH HERE IN IN.TRY TO POLISH THE FACE OF THE BOLT AND STILL THE PRIMERS WILL NOT COME OFF THE FACE OF THE BOLT.I BOUGHT THE FPJ SYSTEM BUT IT IS TO MESSY TO CONTINUE FOR ME TO USE.I AM A VETERAN ON DISABILITY AND I CAN NOT CONTINUE TO SPEND MONEY SENDING THE BOLT ALL OVER THE UNITED STATES AND BUYING MORE PRIMERS,SO IF ANYONE HAS ANY SOLUTION TO THIS PROBLEM,IWOULD GREATLY APPRECIATE ANY HELP.PM ME OR E-MAIL ME AT brownisdown672@gmail.comTHANKS FOR LISTENING TO ME TO RANT AND RAVE.
|
|
|
|
Post by schunter on Jan 14, 2015 12:37:41 GMT -5
Brown, The first Mountaineer 50 with bare primer I had did the same thing. I tried different primers with no luck. Gordy at Knight had me send him the bolt and breech plug and in return he sent me a new bolt and a couple breech plugs. This fixed the problem however created a new one. The gun then had terrible blow back and was just filthy. Knight ended up replacing that Mountaineer with a new one and I have had no more problems. I only use Winchester 209 primers which is what the bolt an breech plug were designed around. I also have Knight Ultra Lite and have had zero problems with it.
Maybe they will replace yours.
Scott
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2015 13:43:56 GMT -5
I USE TEFLON TAPE AROUND THE BREECH PLUG AND THERE IS NO BLOW BY.I DID CONTACT GORDY AND THAT IS WHEN I SENT THE BOLT AND PLUG TO THEIR GUN SMITH SAM, AND HE SENT THE SAME ONES BACK THAT I SENT HIM.I WAS HOPING SOME ONE KNEW OF A FIX IT THAT COULD HELP.I HEARD THEY HAD UP GRADED THE BOLT AND PLUG SINCE THE MOUNTAINEER CAME OUT,BUT I CAN;T GET ANY RESPONCE.THANKS FOR THE INFO.
|
|
|
|
Post by triplese7en on Jan 14, 2015 14:10:41 GMT -5
Curious!
You were using the red primer jacket and it left things messy?
How so? Were you using the plug designed for the jackets?
BTW... the longest primers (that I'm aware of) are the Winchester 209s. Perhaps try those.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2015 14:28:35 GMT -5
I BOUGHT THE BOLT AND THE PLUG THAT CAME WITH THE FPJ SYSTEM.BUT WHEN IT IS FIRED,IT SEEMS TO GET BLACK AROUND THE ARE WHERE THE BOLT DOES;T FULLY CLOSE.I LIKE THE FPJ SYSTEM BECAUSE IT IS MUCH EASIER TO PUT IN AND TAKE OUT,AND THEY ALREADY HAVE THE PRIMER IN THE JACKETS.
|
|
|
|
Post by 1gifford on Jan 14, 2015 15:08:54 GMT -5
Mine does the same thing. Frustrating buying upgraded parts to find that they are no better!!! Kind of reminds me of my old Shovel Head!!!
It seems like the primer binds in between the recessed groove and the bolt. I have only had a few primers that came out relatively easy. The rest were like beating on a Ketchup bottle waiting for the thing to drop.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2015 15:17:41 GMT -5
YEA,IT IS A REAL B***** AT THE RANGE TRYING TO GET THE PRIMER OUT.MINE GETS STUCK ON THE FACE OF THE BOLT IN THE SLOT WHERE YOU PUT THE PRIMER IN.IF IT HADN'T COST SO MUCH,I WOULD TRY TO SALE IT AND GET A SCREW OUT TYPE BREECH PLUG MUZZLELOADER.BUT WHEN IT DOES SHOOT,IT IS DEAD ON,BUT FUN GOES OUT AFTER THE FIRST SHOT TRYING TO BEAT OUT THE SPENT PRIMER.
|
|
|
|
Post by bestill on Jan 14, 2015 17:12:21 GMT -5
I will agree the fpj is a mess but simple.
First thing for clean ignition system is to verify your flash hole is under .040 should be around.031
Second thing is take a new primer and measure overall length with micrometer or caliper then install primer close bolt completely then remove primer and measure i like to have.003 crush on primer for good seal. So if primer measures.297 and after chambered it measures.294 thats perfect. Cci and federal measure.297 new and Winchester.300 few options.
Lastly the real issue the firing pin hole is around.140 so when gun fires it pushes primer cup back into firing pin hole usually if rebolt gun and restrike primer couple times primer will fall out.
On my custom build i thread firing pin hole with10-32 and in stall a plug loctited in then drill plug to .090 and machine firing pin down to .085 this supports primer cup and no more sticking .
If all the above in rite ignition system will be spotless
|
|
|
|
Post by squeeze on Jan 14, 2015 19:13:40 GMT -5
I have heard this several times before. I have 3 mountaineers and no problems with any. one was just a wee bit sticky when new, but seemed to break that rather quickly. I use Winchester w209 for everything and have never had an issue. all are bare primer ignition
|
|
|
|
Post by triplese7en on Jan 14, 2015 19:37:36 GMT -5
That was one of my suggestions -- posters schunter and squeeze use them.... longer Winchester 209 primer.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2015 19:49:21 GMT -5
IS THE WINCHESTER TRIPLE 7 209 PRIMERS THE SAME?BECAUSE I HAVE HUNDRED OF THOSE.
|
|
|
|
Post by schunter on Jan 14, 2015 20:34:50 GMT -5
They are not the same primer but I don't know if they are the same size as the W209 as I have never measured them.
|
|
|
|
Post by bestill on Jan 14, 2015 22:12:05 GMT -5
Did your rifles come with bare ignition or did you buy conversion parts?
Is there a difference between older and newer mountaineer bare primer system?
What size firing pins do you have?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2015 8:28:54 GMT -5
the rifle came with the bare primer system and from what I have learned there is a difference in the firing pin and the bp in the newer mountaineers.the firing pin is suppose to be smaller.
|
|
|
|
Post by lakeplainshunter on Jan 15, 2015 17:57:48 GMT -5
Shimming the Primer pocket using Shoulder Lengthening Screws from McMaster-Carr will fix the issue.
|
|
|
|
Post by bestill on Jan 15, 2015 18:30:42 GMT -5
I believe the issue is the primer cup pushes back in the firing pin hole . The primer sticks to bolt face . How does shimming Pocket help that?
|
|
|
|
Post by lakeplainshunter on Jan 15, 2015 20:37:08 GMT -5
I believe the issue is the primer cup pushes back in the firing pin hole . The primer sticks to bolt face . How does shimming Pocket help that? I was thinking that the headspace might be a little loose which contributes to Primer protrusion. He could increase the flame channel diameter to minimize the pressure that the Primer sees. This has fixed all Primer issues on my Knights. The firing pin diameter is way too big on the Knights IMO which is the real issue. |
|
|
|
Post by pooldoc on Jan 17, 2015 13:58:28 GMT -5
I've had similar problems with my LRH and MH with the Lehigh bare primer breech plug. Per Blackhorn's advice I used the CCI 209M primer for several years and when they became hard to find locally I switched to Federal 209A That helped but has not eliminated the problem, particularly when shooting a number of rounds at the Range. The Federal has a lot less blowback than the CCI. I plan on buffing the primer pocket, and all the bolt and plug surfaces to see it that helps. I've not tried any other primers out of concern for ignition problems nor have I measured any primers. I'll let you know if I find something that helps.
|
|
|
|
Post by bestill on Jan 17, 2015 14:38:41 GMT -5
Federal209a is definitely the proper primer. On lrh if you drill the flame channel out about.010 use 5/32 drill will help considerably and keep carbon removed from flame channel with same drill in future . Flame channel is area from primer pocket down to vent liner.
|
|
|
|
Post by lakeplainshunter on Jan 18, 2015 6:24:09 GMT -5
I've had similar problems with my LRH and MH with the Lehigh bare primer breech plug. Per Blackhorn's advice I used the CCI 209M primer for several years and when they became hard to find locally I switched to Federal 209A That helped but has not eliminated the problem, particularly when shooting a number of rounds at the Range. The Federal has a lot less blowback than the CCI. I plan on buffing the primer pocket, and all the bolt and plug surfaces to see it that helps. I've not tried any other primers out of concern for ignition problems nor have I measured any primers. I'll let you know if I find something that helps. Try the Winchester 209 as they are longer than the other two you have used or shim the Primer Pocket for the Federal 209A. |
|
|
|
Post by bestill on Jan 18, 2015 7:02:29 GMT -5
Lakeplainshunter,
Do you know if knight changed firing pin size from early mountaineer to current? All ive seen measure.170
|
|
|
|
Post by lakeplainshunter on Jan 18, 2015 7:27:29 GMT -5
Lakeplainshunter, Do you know if knight changed firing pin size from early mountaineer to current? All ive seen measure.170 I do not know as I have not kept up with what Knight is doing these days. All of my Knights are mid 2000s or older. When I was working with Lehigh Design on his Bare Primer Conversion Breechplug back some years ago, we discussed going to a smaller diameter for the Firing Pin to fix the issue of the Primer being pushed back into the Firing Pin Hole. It do believe that Knight incorporated the change. I will send an email to someone that will know. |
|
|
|
Post by lakeplainshunter on Jan 18, 2015 18:49:00 GMT -5
Lakeplainshunter, Do you know if knight changed firing pin size from early mountaineer to current? All ive seen measure.170 No change in Firing Pin Diameter. |
|
|
|
Post by bestill on Jan 18, 2015 19:32:31 GMT -5
Thanks
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2015 22:03:47 GMT -5
I SPOKE TO SOME ONE IN CUSTOMER SEERVICE AT KNIGHT AND THEY TOLD ME THAT KNIGHT HAD WENT WITH A DIFFERENT BOLT AND FIRING PIN WHEN I STARTED TO HAVE THE PROBLEM WITH THE PRIMERS STICKING TO THE BOLT .
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2015 10:41:55 GMT -5
SENT MY BOLT AND BREECH PLUG TO bestill HERE ON THE FORUM AND HE SAID THAT MY BREECH PLUG WAS JUNK AND THE PRIMER POCKET WAS BURNED,SO NOW I HAVE TO LOOK FOR A BP FOR THE 209 BARE PRIMER SYSTEM FOR MY KNIGHT MOUNTAINEER.THANKS FOR ALL THE ADVICE FROM EVERYONE.
|
|
|
|
Post by sabotloader on Jan 23, 2015 16:44:18 GMT -5
SENT MY BOLT AND BREECH PLUG TO bestill HERE ON THE FORUM AND HE SAID THAT MY BREECH PLUG WAS JUNK AND THE PRIMER POCKET WAS BURNED,SO NOW I HAVE TO LOOK FOR A BP FOR THE 209 BARE PRIMER SYSTEM FOR MY KNIGHT MOUNTAINEER.THANKS FOR ALL THE ADVICE FROM EVERYONE. I have been away from this forum for awhile and had missed out on this conversation.... The reason that the primer is pushing back into the firing pin hole is because of head spacing and the possibility that the flash channel in the BP is plugged or nearly plugged. Do you clean the flash channel by turning a 5/32" drill bit in the hole under the primer seat? This is something that really needs to be done when you clean. This is a homemade tool that I use to clean the 'flash channel'  Second the BP is designed to shoot any American made 209 primer, but the cleanest shooting primer should be a Winchester W-209. It is the longest of the American made primers. Just making that switch might stop your problem altogether. When you close the bolt on the primer you should feel a slight resistance to full closure right at the end as you compressing the primer very slightly. If you do not get this slight 'crushing' you are going to get excess blow back and it will drive the primer to the rear and sometimes the force is enough to push the prime out of the battery cup into the firing pin opening. The spent primers should come out as bright and clean as they were when you put them in. These are spent primers for a range shoot showing know leakage at all...  Not all rifles are this clean because of manufacturing tolerances allowed, but the problem can be easily taken care by inserting a stainless steel shim in the primer pocket of the breech plug. Using this method you can virtually make any clean in a Knight. These are the shims for the primer pocket... They are place in the top of primer pocket and then pressed to the bottom. They are press fit so they do not fall out. The thickness of the shim shown in the picture is way to thick for the project, the picture is for an example only.  This shows a picture of a shim installed in a Mountaineer plug.  I believe if you achieve the correct headspace you primer problems will disappear... |
|
|
|
Post by bestill on Jan 23, 2015 22:21:23 GMT -5
Sabotloader, i absolutely agree that headspace needs to be rite i like to see about .003 crush when bolt is closed typically about last 1/4" of bolt travel during lock up.
Also keeping flame channel carbon removed regularly is key.
But i have to ask with the issue of primer cup pushing back into firing pin hole and sticking to bolt face seems a leaking primer would be less likely to stick than a sealed primer due to pressure increase ?
My mountaineer with heavy blackhorn load and 300 grain bullet with completely sealed breech and primer and clean flame channel and .031 vent will still stick primer from time to time. But once firing pin hole and pin was reduced to .090 never sticks.
|
|
|
|
Post by sabotloader on Jan 23, 2015 23:50:21 GMT -5
Sabotloader, i absolutely agree that headspace needs to be rite i like to see about .003 crush when bolt is closed typically about last 1/4" of bolt travel during lock up. Also keeping flame channel carbon removed regularly is key. But i have to ask with the issue of primer cup pushing back into firing pin hole and sticking to bolt face seems a leaking primer would be less likely to stick than a sealed primer due to pressure increase ? I believe the problem is most common when the headspace is incorrect. What we have observed for the most part is that when the blow back pressure drives the battery cup of the primer to rear with force and velocity, the primer in the battery cup with greater weight is pushed out of the cup and back in to the firing pin hole and in some instances until it contact the firing pin and is stopped. The weight of the battery cup is light and the flanges/wings of the battery cup contacts the face of the bolt and can not travel any further. On the other the sudden stop of the battery cup and the velocity of the travel as well as the distance of the travel ejects the combined weight of the primer and the anvil from the battery cup back into the firing pin hole. This also allows some blow back gas to escape rapidly reducing the pressure. I believe if the battery cup does not move at all the primer does not get the added inertia of the travel to rear. I would agree with the above statement entirely, with the heavier powder loads and a heavier bullet on occasions even though the cup is not moving the primer can be driven back. I believe this occurs for two reasons... 1. the diameter of the cup and the diameter of the primer do not always provide the tightest fit. After all the shot gun prime was never designed to do what we might be asking it to do in a ML breech. 2. there are times that you might be producing a higher gain of pressure in the bore than is normal say when the projectile combination fits tighter from loading to the next. Not all sabots fit exactly with the same tightness and even the bullet diameters may vary some what. I know when I shoot 140 grains of BH by volume and a Lehigh .458x305 grain project with its really long bearing surface I do also get some primer pressure warnings by the primer pushing back. Those are the times that I really try to maintain the flash channel to WIDE open and clean - I really need it to be able to handle as much blow back volume as it can. That is one of the reasons we opened the flash channel to 5/32" and reduced the flash hole in the vent liner to 0.031. ESPECIALLY since BH is progressive and the heavier the bullet the greater and long the pressure curve. I am not the best writer nor the best ballistician so I hope I have explained my thoughts well enough to make some sense... mike |
|
|
|
Post by bestill on Jan 24, 2015 0:58:01 GMT -5
Makes perfect sense.
Since ive reduced firing pin size and bushing in bolt firing pin hole . Ive had no issues with primer sticking. Just makes since to have a small firing pin like every other bolt rifle or shotgun .085 to .100
|
|
