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Post by driven2tri24 on Jan 3, 2015 11:32:51 GMT -5
Guys, I'm really scratching my head and need some help. Yesterday I pulled the trigger on a nice doe and my 10ML2 just went "click". Fortunately for me she stood there, while I uncocked and recocked the bolt to make sure it was down(and it was) Gun went click again. I cycled bolt and pulled primer, NO DENT in it. I put in a new primer and pointed at her and squeezed again. This time it went off. Missed the deer and reloaded in case. When I went to look for blood it was almost dark and I 'm sure I missed. For curiousity I squeezed trigger in safe direction and it went off...Now I'm pretty frustrated because this is the second time this has happened. Last year I went to take a shot at about 150 yards on standing deer and it went "click" for the first time, I had time to change the primer and it too went click. Neither primer had dents. The deer left while I reloaded with a new primer, and on my way to the house I pointed in safe direction and squeezed and it went off. I've shot hundreds of rounds in this gun (including other deer kills last year and previous years in much colder temps)and have only had this happen twice over the years. The only thing I can think of is that last year when I loaded the primer(Win W209) IT was HARD to close the bolt, but I pushed it pretty hard and the handle closed all the way. I switched to Fed209A's this year because I thought the W209's might be just a smidge too tall. Yesterday when I loaded the primer it TOO was hard so I picked another primer, which was also the same...I put a little effort and it shut fully. Then I went hunting and it went "click" Could the safety have been in slightly in the wrong position??
Here are the specifics: Savage 10ML2 synthetic/blue 44gr 5744 under 300 SST and Short MMP(Shoots 1.5" groups @175yds) Primers FED209A this year W209 last year Temp 35 degrees both times. (I recently sighted in at 20 degrees with 0 problems) Factory BP with Vent I used to sight in last week. Carbon has been reamed/cleaned and Vent Measures .033 Accutrigger is set at 2.5# this year. Last year was 2.0# and I raised it a bit to eliminate as possible cause.
Could it be Not enough Headspace and I'm getting a too tall primer? Maybe I'm doing something wrong and the safety is in the wrong position or something when I'm closing the bolt. I don't know...
I just need some advice. I have another gun to use but I'm afraid to take this one again until I get some pretty confident answers that can explain why this is happening..
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2015 11:36:04 GMT -5
Do you have the factory springs in your accutriger? 2# seems pretty light
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Post by ET on Jan 3, 2015 11:57:15 GMT -5
Did you happen to notice the position of the cocking piece pin after hearing the click?
Ed
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Post by davesonic444 on Jan 3, 2015 12:52:34 GMT -5
Not an expert but i would look at the bolt itself, disassemble and clean,to me sounds like firing pin is sticking. Do you use Remoil with teflon? I had issues with it years ago on a Knight rifle. I cleaned and switched to another brand and never had another misfire.
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Jan 3, 2015 12:58:37 GMT -5
Did you, by chance, have the safety in the middle position? Take your empty gun and put a primer in and put the safety in the middle position and squeeze the trigger. See if you can duplicate what happened.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2015 13:52:30 GMT -5
Did you have gloves on? Did the Accutrigger "safety" release, but not actually engage the firing pin. That has happened to me before with my Savages. Did you have gloves on both times the trigger problems occurred?
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Post by markb317 on Jan 3, 2015 13:58:10 GMT -5
It sounds to me like your firing pin is sticking. I would pull the bolt apart and clean and use very little lube and reassemble it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2015 14:40:37 GMT -5
is it a factory stock? make sure the handle is going all the way down, if it is hitting the stock cut out before completely bottoming out that would be my first guess, if it is even questionable take a little out.
lube the firing pin assembly with Hornady one shot after a good cleaning, I would have doubts that that's the culprit but I might be wrong.
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Post by cr500afx on Jan 3, 2015 15:49:50 GMT -5
I would wager that the bolt was not all the way down. On the ml II, the bolt will strike the edge of the action where the stock is a little short and the bolt will get harder to push down until it overcomes the edge of the action. When you pust the bolt handle down, make sure it goes all the way down.Then slide the safety fully forward to lock the bolt.
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Post by markb317 on Jan 3, 2015 17:12:32 GMT -5
If it's tripping the trigger when he's closing the bolt there would not be a click noise when he pulls the trigger, the trigger would not move on an accutrigger.
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Post by olegburn on Jan 3, 2015 22:56:38 GMT -5
Last year my Savage done same thing you describe when I pulled it on a coyote. I wore two pairs of wool gloves and I figured I also didn't pull trigger exactly to the back or had my finger funny on that Accutrigger. If that safety blade is not pressed all the way in, gun will click but pin will be blocked. That might explain no strike on the primer. Try with unloaded gun (and pointing in safe direction still). Pull on the trigger without touching that center blade and see if that feels familiar.
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Post by driven2tri24 on Jan 4, 2015 2:31:50 GMT -5
I don't know if the safety was in middle position, but I did push it forward and recock the bolt, plus it did "click" on both attempts. Not a full click like when you dry fire it. It was a shortened quicker and quieter click. I had gloves on both times. The accutrigger moved freely and trigger felt normal on both 1st attempts and also after recocking both times it gave the same click. The spring is the original spring and it will drop on my scale down to 1.75#, but when below 2# the accutrigger blade sticks solid and undepressable when cocking sometimes, at 2.25-2.5# it never does this. And in both of these cases the accutrigger moved freely prior to pulling the trigger as well as each second attempt. The gun only went off in both instances after totally cycling the bolt all the way rearward, replacing the undented primer a second time, and then closing it. Most likely the all it's not the partially closed thing as I would have encountered this many times while at the range. I didn't notice the cocking pin position either time, following the failures, and I've been unable to duplicate it by cocking etc with safety positioning in between clicks etc., Slightly raised bolt etc. I have no lube on bolt. and have shot approximately 50 shots in 20 degree weather last week as well without this. My stock hasn't been off since that sight in as well. The BP was snug. Only thing I can think of was that day it was hard to close the bolt, so I put muzzle on my foot and tried to force the bolt closed, it seemed too tight so I opened it a bit and dropped that primer, so I picked another and then tried to close it but it was tough as well, but it shut. Made sure safety was on and went to my stand. Maybe I was pushing the trigger accidentally or i bumped the safety when attempting to close, but something made it tough to close and evidentally affected the firing pin from fully hitting the primer. Is it possible for the bolt to cock the accutrigger but not cock the firing pin? Normally when I dryfire the bolt rattles or jiggles on trigger break, this didn't feel like this, the bolt still felt tight in the channel like it was cocked???Same on second attempt, However on the 3rd attempt(both years) when it went off the bolt felt loose after the shot(like normal).
Is it possible that something isn't cocking correctly because of the way gun was being held when I loaded the primer? Thats the only hting that seems different than the range.
I will try the trigger stuff tomorrow as the only thing that maes ANY logical sense is the possibile explanation with the gloves...but whats the odds of that happening twice in a row but work on the 3rd time? I guess possible because I did jerk the trigger hard on the 3rd attempt, hence the miss..
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Post by jims on Jan 4, 2015 7:08:38 GMT -5
If you ever discover the cause let us know.
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Jan 4, 2015 7:29:53 GMT -5
..........."so I put muzzle on my foot and tried to force the bolt closed, it seemed too tight so I opened it a bit and dropped that primer"
Did I read this correctly? Please NEVER DO THAT AGAIN. To me, this is no different to putting a cap on a cocked gun and then leaning over the ramrod to seat your bullet. For one, it's just not safe, And two, in your case, you already have something undetermined going on with your gun.
Don't mean to get off track here but with safety, you just can't be too safe.
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Post by mrbuck on Jan 4, 2015 7:44:37 GMT -5
wilms ! Thank you for helping this new shooter keep all of his body parts ! Chris
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Post by fishhawk on Jan 4, 2015 9:51:06 GMT -5
Rossman40 is our expert on Savage triggers and bolts. If he doesn't chime in here, PM him.
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Post by driven2tri24 on Jan 4, 2015 12:05:23 GMT -5
Thanks guys! I finally figured it out this morning after thinking about all of your ideas last night. I unloaded gun and put my gloves on, and installed a used primer, and cocked. I can duplicate it by pressing the trigger sidewards(towards my extreme left) and depressing the trigger slowly. The gun makes an abbreviated "click" and the the cocking pin stops 1/2 way in because it catches the accutrigger blade(which after depressing trigger is now frozen rearwards). Both shots last year and this year were off to my extreme left and with the same heavy gloves. Now that I KNOW the problem I can fix it: 1. For the rest of the season(today & tomorrow) I'll just use my flip top mittens instead of the gloves which will put my finger tip on the blade. 2. As a permanent solution I'll probably replace with a factory 2 screw trigger like the one on my old 110 .270 IF they interchange?? If not then, I guess I will look at the Rifle Basix, Timney or SS aftermarket models.
It is what it is, and I'm glad you guys helped me figure it out. Thanks again!
FWIW - I know I stated earlier that I loaded the other day with muzzle on my foot, but I actually had put the muzzle against my gun case on my Hitch rack. I thought it would be less words and all I was trying to illustrate was I had it pointed downward rather than the usual upward while closing bolt.
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Post by cr500afx on Jan 4, 2015 12:17:30 GMT -5
Glad you determined root cause and have a plan for reoccurence prevention.
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Post by cowhunter on Jan 4, 2015 12:40:45 GMT -5
Maybe I should have read the owners manual more carefully, but I never felt completely confident about the accutrigger. I didn't lose any animal shots, but I had the thing do the semi-click sound after not doing something right or not having the bolt all the way down. What was the purpose for the accutrigger, and why didn't other gunmakers use it?
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Post by svend on Jan 4, 2015 12:52:01 GMT -5
Here's my two cents. I shoot at least a thousand rounds a year with accutriggers. I have a couple of model 12 varmint guns that I use for prairie dog and bench shooting. There are two ways to pull the trigger with out fully depressing the accutrigger blade that will result in a hard click with the accutrigger safety mechanism stopping the sear. The most common one that has happened to me quite a few times happens if you have your finger on the very lowest point of the trigger. This will allow you to pull the trigger without fully depressing the safety blade. This can also happen if you pull against the side of the trigger leaving the blade slightly under depressed. If the blade isn't depressed completely flush with the trigger it won't go off. You can test this by dry firing an unloaded gun and you will find that it isn't that hard to recreate. Like others have mentioned on a 10 ML having the bolt slightly up will have a similar result.
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Jan 4, 2015 14:10:29 GMT -5
I didn't realize that this was an accu-trigger. My gun is standard issue, non-accu-trigger.
I've said it a hundred times that this trigger should be called a safety trigger, not an accu-trigger. And, for many people, this trigger causes fits in combat. I think that everyone in camp that owns a Savage, except me, has the accu-trigger. Everyone has had this happen. Very safe. So safe, it may not go off.
I dislike them with a passion. To be safe I do not have a cap in the gun when ascending or descending a tree, or using a tow rope. I liken the accutrigger to a Glock....but hopefully, a Glock is more forgiving on how you pull the trigger. I have a Ruger SR9 in 9mm with a trigger like that and it doesn't seem to matter how you depress the initial trigger, as long as you depress it it fires. Thank goodness!
And my comments regarding resting the barrel on your foot.....sorry....I couldn't help myself. I know a guy who will clasp his hands and lean on the barrel of a loaded gun while standing around after gathering in the woods. I'm 47 and he's about 60 and I try real hard to be respectful and say something every time I see him do it. Also had a guy (wrote a post about it earlier this year) who put his Savage in the truck, remembered it was still capped, and tried to uncap it in the truck. Gloves on and ended up shooting my friends transmission out with 70 gr of H4198 and a 300 gr barnes MZ. With me in the back seat. Talk about WTF and talk about thinking someone was hurt....or could have been....real bad. This guy has hunted all his life and is also about 60 and neither my friend or I even questioned that his gun may have been loaded when we picked him up and he put his gun in the truck. He had a momentary break in reasoning since he has health probs and had been waiting to be picked up in the cold for over an hour. I am a freak on safety so I am sorry for calling you out. Don't want anyone getting hurt or killed. We all have come this far to be maimed or killed by doing something very wrong and avoidable.
Be safe and glad you figured out the issue!
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Post by bullhauler on Jan 4, 2015 14:29:06 GMT -5
I have 3 accutrigger guns all of them have done this..... A friend of mine removed the safety part of the accuyrigger on his because it cost him a big buck once. It seems to help NOT having the trigger adjusted as low as it will go but also gloves will cause it or anytime you don't pull straight rearward on the trigger thus can happen.
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Jan 4, 2015 14:40:21 GMT -5
It's actually an ultra safe design. However, for a normally safe hunter/shooter, it is more of an annoyance.
I like real triggers and like to practice safe gun handling. I do not like devises like this and am perplexed as to why it is called an "accu-trigger".
There is nothing about this trigger that makes the gun more accurate.
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Post by driven2tri24 on Jan 4, 2015 20:58:36 GMT -5
Thanks guys! I plan on swapping the trigger out this summer. Does anyone know if I can use a 3 screw standard savage trigger or do I have to go with an aftermarket one??
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Post by hunter on Jan 5, 2015 6:14:56 GMT -5
Wilms, I guess it makes you pull the trigger accurately
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Post by cowhunter on Jan 5, 2015 13:02:15 GMT -5
Wilms, hunting with you would be like hunting with my sharp-eyed safety conscious father. But no one complains about someone being too safety-conscious. A lot of it is experience. I have to cring around inexperienced people -- even my daughter.
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Jan 5, 2015 18:24:29 GMT -5
I won't go to local turkey shoots because of dozens of people I do not know waving guns around. I don't know if there is such a thing as too cautious. All I know is that it would really suck to blow your foot off. It would really suck to blow your hand off with a double load. And it would really, really suck if you hurt or killed someone you hunt with. I guess if you killed yourself by accident it wouldn't suck for you. But everyone who cares about you, needs you and loves you....it would really really suck.
This thread is getting off topic and I am half to blame. Someone want to start a safety thread? Someone else want to continue this and give your thoughts on the Savage safety trigger?
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Post by olegburn on Jan 5, 2015 19:04:04 GMT -5
wilmsmeyer, I'm sure post author didn't mind your Safety comment, as it also made me cringe too. Safety first is never overused sentence in my camp.
Regarding bolt closing hard: If carbon builds up enough inside the breech plug it will become harder to close the bolt as primer bottoms out against the crud and bolt has to force it in. In extreme case it may even become safety issue too. You apply a lot of pressure on primer that is made to fire and say it deforms or whatever. I would inspect BP opening and clean it if necessary with drill bit that is bit smaller than the opening (forgot the size)
Sidestepping to safety, another thing that is right thing to do is slide safety to Middle position when closing bolt. Someone had an Accidental Discharge when closing the bolt and unknowingly touching trigger which led to gun firing. No one got hurt that time with only victim being a gun range roof and someone's pride.
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Post by driven2tri24 on Jan 7, 2015 14:52:30 GMT -5
Thanks guys! I plan on swapping the trigger out this summer. Does anyone know if I can use a 3 screw standard savage trigger or do I have to go with an aftermarket one??
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Post by artjr338wm on Jan 7, 2015 17:39:47 GMT -5
Would someone who knows for certain please list the aftermarket trigger best suited for replacing the factory Accuu-trigger, especially one that requires zero modification to any part of my 10ML-II. I have been admittedly incredibly fortunate that I have never suffered any kind of a ignition or firing issue with any of my ML's knock on wood. Have loaded a bullet without any powder twice in my Encore and once in my 10ML-II, but those three have been my only mistakes ever made with my ML's in having fired well over 3000 shots.
All three incidents had one common cause, talking while loading. WITHOUT EXCEPTION, I Don't talk anymore under any circumstances while loading my ML's.
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