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Post by artjr338wm on Oct 30, 2014 23:25:27 GMT -5
Due to problems I wont bore members hear with a needlessly lengthy retelling of, today while at the range, both my primary and back up slug guns suffered problems and went out of action, and cant be used for this deer season, which leaves me with my 10ML-II as my best remaining option for firearm deer. Some might be wondering why I even use my slug guns when the Savage so completely out performs any slug gun in existence and the answer is if given the option I would never use a single shot rifle while hunting. Why you ask? because about 17 years ago long story short hunting with a single shot slug gun cost me the largest deer I have ever seen while hunting.
I went to the range today to simply do a final prior to season zero double check of my A-bolt, Marlin 512, and of course my 10ML-II.
With both my slug guns out, I then re shot my 10ML-II using a load I stumbled upon basically by accident earlier this year. Was shooting the fallowing load back in the cool temps of April:
<>325 .458" FTX
<>74 grains RL-10X
<>Black Harvester Cush rib sabot
<>Federal 209 mag primer.
Although I have shot some superb groups with this loading, in all honesty it's a all day 1.25 load, which is IMHO, vary good, and at 200 yards averages about 1.5 MOA.
Last time at the range I saw a opened box of my Barnes Originals in my ML range box. Figured WTH, give them a try with the above load. WOW!!!!! first three at 100 all touching, sighted in 3" high at 100 put me 1" high at 200 and about 1.7-2" group average of three 3 shot 200 yard groups. So I decided to go with the fallowing group for 2014 deer season:
<>300 .458" Barnes Original SSP
<>74 grains RL-10X
<>Harvester Black Crush rib sabot
<>Federal Mag 209
I shot this load again at 100 and 200 to day just to confirm my zero remained unchanged, and to my complete relief and total delight, my Savage didn't let me down. It's not often I say out loud "I LOVE YOU!!!" to things made of cold steel and wood, but I did exactly just that today to my Savage.
As I am only off today and tomorrow, and are leaving to go out of town bow hunting on Nov 8th, only to return home on the evening of the 15th, repack and drive to my hotel and gun hunt from the 16th to the 21st, if it not for my 10ML-II I would be forced to loose 2-3 days of my bow hunt to get one of my slug guns back up running, and that is at best a maybe. Days off where I work are few, far between and valued by me like gold, so the possibility of loosing at least 1/3 to 1/2 of my bow hunt to fix a slug gun made me sick at the meir thought of it.
So now thanks to my beloved Savage, I don't have to loose a single precious day of hunting and I will be able to hunt with complete confidence, and because I am so obscenely X10 sick of all the BS that go's with slugs as in the $3+ per shot cost, maddeningly inconsistent accuracy, limited range I will from now on hunt exclusively with my 10ML-II and hopefully never look back.
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Post by dans on Oct 31, 2014 4:46:37 GMT -5
If I had to hunt with a single shot, it would also be a Savage.
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Post by jims on Oct 31, 2014 6:35:39 GMT -5
S
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Post by jims on Oct 31, 2014 6:36:18 GMT -5
Some say those .50 Savages won't shoot but you have showed there are some very good ones out there. Good hunting.
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Post by lakeplainshunter on Oct 31, 2014 6:49:49 GMT -5
Guns always malfunction at the most inopportune times. That is why I always have a spare ready to go and thoroughly test before hunting with them. You are not at a disadvantage with the Savage over your Slug Guns. You actually have a shot advantage in terms of accuracy.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2014 7:31:50 GMT -5
Due to problems I wont bore members hear with a needlessly lengthy retelling of, today while at the range, both my primary and back up slug guns suffered problems and went out of action, and cant be used for this deer season, which leaves me with my 10ML-II as my best remaining option for firearm deer. Some might be wondering why I even use my slug guns when the Savage so completely out performs any slug gun in existence and the answer is if given the option I would never use a single shot rifle while hunting. Why you ask? because about 17 years ago long story short hunting with a single shot slug gun cost me the largest deer I have ever seen while hunting. I went to the range today to simply do a final prior to season zero double check of my A-bolt, Marlin 512, and of course my 10ML-II. With both my slug guns out, I then re shot my 10ML-II using a load I stumbled upon basically by accident earlier this year. Was shooting the fallowing load back in the cool temps of April: <>325 .458" FTX <>74 grains RL-10X <>Black Harvester Cush rib sabot <>Federal 209 mag primer. Although I have shot some superb groups with this loading, in all honesty it's a all day 1.25 load, which is IMHO, vary good, and at 200 yards averages about 1.5 MOA. Last time at the range I saw a opened box of my Barnes Originals in my ML range box. Figured WTH, give them a try with the above load. WOW!!!!! first three at 100 all touching, sighted in 3" high at 100 put me 1" high at 200 and about 1.7-2" group average of three 3 shot 200 yard groups. So I decided to go with the fallowing group for 2014 deer season: <>300 .458" Barnes Original SSP <>74 grains RL-10X <>Harvester Black Crush rib sabot <>Federal Mag 209 I shot this load again at 100 and 200 to day just to confirm my zero remained unchanged, and to my complete relief and total delight, my Savage didn't let me down. It's not often I say out loud "I LOVE YOU!!!" to things made of cold steel and wood, but I did exactly just that today to my Savage. As I am only off today and tomorrow, and are leaving to go out of town bow hunting on Nov 8th, only to return home on the evening of the 15th, repack and drive to my hotel and gun hunt from the 16th to the 21st, if it not for my 10ML-II I would be forced to loose 2-3 days of my bow hunt to get one of my slug guns back up running, and that is at best a maybe. Days off where I work are few, far between and valued by me like gold, so the possibility of loosing at least 1/3 to 1/2 of my bow hunt to fix a slug gun made me sick at the meir thought of it. So now thanks to my beloved Savage, I don't have to loose a single precious day of hunting and I will be able to hunt with complete confidence, and because I am so obscenely X10 sick of all the BS that go's with slugs as in the $3+ per shot cost, maddeningly inconsistent accuracy, limited range I will from now on hunt exclusively with my 10ML-II and hopefully never look back. I understand the frustration, but that's a pretty bold statement?  ? What kind of slug guns do you shoot? (EDIT) sorry I see the guns listed now... |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2014 7:45:36 GMT -5
I personally feel at a disadvantage carrying any SML, unless I'm bean field hunting where shots are 200 yards and beyond. It's a shame your slug guns let ya down in the heat of the moment and a good thing the ole Savage came thru for ya. I got a lucky Ithaca I guess, but I'd be willing to bet any deer 225 yards or closer that gives me a shot, is meat on the table, every time. Different strokes for different folks tho, just glad to hear ya had a back up that came thru for ya, Good luck this season..
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Post by bestill on Oct 31, 2014 7:59:18 GMT -5
I believe the one shot ,one kill saying as a muzzleloader makes us practice and make better choices as a whole. Nothing is more sickening to me during firearms season than hearing a 5 shot folly from a slug gun . I always get a mental image of a running wounded deer. Makes a fella want to puke.
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Post by hankinsrfls on Oct 31, 2014 8:24:14 GMT -5
Bestill,,,, you should hunt Kentucky, Where we have 30 round magazines and AR15's... Slinging 22 caliber bullets all over the hill sides... Jeff.
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Post by 03mossy on Oct 31, 2014 8:48:41 GMT -5
I believe the one shot ,one kill saying as a muzzleloader makes us practice and make better choices as a whole. Nothing is more sickening to me during firearms season than hearing a 5 shot folly from a slug gun . I always get a mental image of a running wounded deer. Makes a fella want to puke. Witnessing things like this is what also pushed me towards muzzleloading and either making that one perfect shot or passing on it altogether. I have killed more deer with my 870 slug gun than any other so Im not knocking slug guns as a whole. The farm to the north of where I hunt opening weekend always leaves about 30 rows of corn up. Then that first sunday they drive it with about 15 guys. My stand is on the edge of there property so I watch the circus every year. I swear none of these guys even practices one time before that season. It drives me nuts to see deer run out under a hail of gunfire and run off with legs dangleing or shot in the guts. Lots of good ethical slug hunters out there but yawhos like this give it a bad name. |
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Post by deadeer on Oct 31, 2014 9:09:29 GMT -5
I have only had one incident where I needed a back up shot when carrying the mz during our Indiana gun season. Shot one deer and several ran straight to me stopping at 50yd while I was laying on the ground. Hard to pour powder and load a tight bullet laying down. So no extra kills that night. Other than that, state park hunts where a good chance at multiples are the only times I get nervous with a mz. A single shot Encore rifle or pistol has accounted for several 4 shot 4 kills and one 5 ringer in the past so I don't feel handicapped with that scenario. Hey Art, did you hear we might be going to any high power rifle cartridge next year here in Indiana? Already passed several hurdles and looking like it might happen now, AND introduced by the DNR! What a shock. Good luck man.
Jay
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Post by rangeball on Oct 31, 2014 9:24:16 GMT -5
A 12g accutip failing to fire in my H&R slug hunter on a B&C buck at 25 yds drove me to SML.
Still hurts.
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Post by bestill on Oct 31, 2014 9:31:55 GMT -5
Indiana DNR has lost there mind!!!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2014 9:44:26 GMT -5
I always thought that the Ml1,2 were made just for the frustrated sluggun hunter....Ohioguy's ithica sounds like an accurate rig ,but most I have heard about can easily be out shot with a SML.....With a longer range capability also....Good luck Art.....
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Post by jims on Oct 31, 2014 9:59:24 GMT -5
I agree with Art. I have an accurate Savage 212, Marlin 512 and a TarHunt shotgun slug guns. They do not leave the safe since I started with the Savage except if I have to go out and try to recover anothers wounded deer. It was not so bad when Ohio for the most part only let me take one deer, now that I can take three in my area a second quicker shot might occasionally be OK if there were multiple deer but that is the way it is. We can't have a second gun available.
I will always take accuracy over number of shots for where and how I hunt deer.
I am glad he has such a great shooter, they all do not need aftermarket barrels.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2014 10:00:43 GMT -5
I believe the one shot ,one kill saying as a muzzleloader makes us practice and make better choices as a whole. Nothing is more sickening to me during firearms season than hearing a 5 shot folly from a slug gun . I always get a mental image of a running wounded deer. Makes a fella want to puke.
Not trying to sound or be standoffish or ruffle any feathers but,
I believe in one shot one kill as much as the next guy, and with a slug gun that shoots 3 shot groups like this day in and day out at 100 yards and has proven capable kill shots beyond 200 yards, one shot one kill is normally what I get, the other two in the chamber are in case he flinches once he hits the ground and/or would have a notion he wanted to get up and make a run toward the property line... Not all slug hunters are sling em and hope for the best, and not all slug guns are 3-5 MOA at 100 yards.... That being said, I truly look forward to trying to lay one down with one of my SML's, but it's not because I have to, or that it's going to make me be "more careful with my shot" or that I feel I'm at a disadvantage with the slug gun in my hands, it's solely for the chance to extend my range if the opportunity arises. IMO every shot taken at an animal should be the best shot you can possibly take, as if you are only going to get one shot, no matter what weapon you're using.
I HATE the sound of sluggers slinging slugs randomly at will as fast as they can at everything that moves in hopes to take one home with a lucky shot as much as the next guy, trust me... wish more people would invest more into their hunting set ups and practices so we didn't have to deal with the barrage of bullets flying, now we will get to listen to the 45-70's and such, flinging lead as fast as they can work the levers... Sorry to go astray from the topic of the thread, sorry you had issues Art, but glad the Savage is dialed in and shooting so good, go knock down a big one! |
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Post by artjr338wm on Oct 31, 2014 11:52:22 GMT -5
Ohio guy, if you don't mind, what caliber and model Ithaca and ammo do you shoot and are you using a BDC type optic? I know Ithaca makes both 12 and 20 gauge slug guns. Love to own one, but I can't afford the $800+ price tag for the one I want. I own the fallowing fully rifled dedicated slug guns:
<>Browning A-Bolt with a 1-35 twist barrel
<>Marlin 512 Slugmaster with a 1-28 twist barrel, muzzled crowned, trigger job, and action bedded by a pro smith.
<>NEF Tracker II Special also with a 1-28 twist barrel, also a trigger job.
Out of all of them I have shot:
<>Lightfield EXP's
<>lightfield Commander IDS
<>Winchester Partition Golds
<>Hornady XTP (long discontinued utter failure)
<>Hornady SST
<>Remington Copper solids
<>Remington Core Locked Ultras
<>Remington Accutips
I always use the sight in bench form recommended by Randy Fritz of Tar-hunt, and sight in at 50 yards again per Mr. Fritz. I only shoot at 100 yards and beyond to find my ethical limit for each sabot ammo. I have found extremely few sabot ammo offerings that gave me the accuracy and ballistic performance to remain ethical to use at 200 yards let alone beyond.
No disrespect implied, but I am quite interested in what your using that gives you the consistent accuracy to be able shoot at 225 yards with the level of confidence it would seem you have based on your statement, as I am hoping I have missed something in the newest crops of sabot ammo I try to avoid researching by way of shooting anymore because I've spent so much money over the years for so little return on my investment that my passion for doing so has suffered a economic gut kick.
My 200 yard test firings of all the above except for the Lightfield ammo whos drop at 200 yards ruled them out, have yielded darn few solid consistent 200 yard performers, by that I mean any ammo I shoot using field shooting form must CONSISTENTLY stay at or below 4" to be acceptable to myself. I spent allot of time and money learning how to properly shoot sabot ammo from the bench.
My point being I have shot allot of different types, designs and weights of slugs out of three different slug guns and to date have not been able to achieve the level of accuracy I wanted. I suspect I am setting unrealistic and unobtainable accuracy goals.
On the other hand with my 10ML-II I achieved excellent 225 yard capable accuracy basically instantly, first loading I tried as a matter of fact, and as far as 300 yard shots go, it is purely a question of my abilities NOT the muzzleloaders as to weather or not I can make them.
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Post by artjr338wm on Oct 31, 2014 12:12:06 GMT -5
Sorry Ohioguy, but you pic wont enlarge like the other ones. Again, what model deerslyer do you have and what ammo are you shooting. I know Ithica makes the DS-II and DS-III, love to own the TH laminated stock model, but IIRC it's over $800 and Indiana has a good chance of allowing CF rifles next year and I own several if allowed in my area I would use. Even if my area stays shotgun only I have desided to invest in a savage 110 chambered in a allowed caliber, about the same cost as a DS-III.
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Post by bestill on Oct 31, 2014 12:13:09 GMT -5
Bestill,,,, you should hunt Kentucky, Where we have 30 round magazines and AR15's... Slinging 22 caliber bullets all over the hill sides... Jeff. I would have to leave town . Bow and muzzleloaders for me! |
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Post by Dave W on Oct 31, 2014 12:19:54 GMT -5
Art, he has an older DS III. I have never saw a slug gun that shoots like his, and that is not a fluke group.
He has tried to talk me into buying one for years but I just do not believe they all shoot that well.
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Post by rangeball on Oct 31, 2014 12:24:07 GMT -5
The older ones have the rep for ridiculously good accuracy, don't they? Barrel is threaded to the action instead of pinned, I think? Been a long time...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2014 12:31:42 GMT -5
Art, I have the early/old style Ithaca DSIII with a 26" HEAVY walled barrel, 1-35" twist. (12 gauge, sorry)
I currently shoot Remington 3" Accutips, that's what I've been shooting for quite a while, never had a misfire or a deer get away (yet) the Winchester XP3's shoot equally as well, as did the Win partition golds and the Remington Core Loct's.
The Accutips and XP3's have proven to be much more effective on deer for me, especially at distance. Most of the deer I have shot with my Ithaca have been beyond the 100 yard marker with the furthest being 228 yards IIRC, and that shot was made with the Remington Core loct ultra's, off hand....
I feel for ya on the money blown messing with slug guns and ammo, I'm right with ya.. Ive had quite a few of em too..
Maybe I got a one in a million slug guns, but whatever the case, I'll take it and I have all the confidence in the world in it, every time its in my hands...
I will say this, my neighbor and friend had a custom tar hunt slug gun, the best one money could buy, after shooting our guns side by side it forced him to send the tar hunt back at least two times, before he ended up eventually selling it. And as a total confidence booster, I took a shot at a 300 yard target with the ithaca and it was witnessed, maybe the witnes'ee will chime in.. it was an accuracy test only, a slug may likely bounce off a deer at that distance.
I have no doubt that SML's have the advantage out at distance, that's why I have some, but call it a one in a million guns or call it luck, inside 200 yards my slug gun is an advantage imo.
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Post by artjr338wm on Oct 31, 2014 12:48:39 GMT -5
I feel I should add one other or rather two other reasons I am going to my 10ML-II as my primary deer getter of choice. Twice in my hunting life I had truly monster deer standing still broad side out of slug range but well with in 10ML-II range and had to sit there and let them walk out of sight, was able to LRF confirm distance to both deer. Both bucks were on the other side of different picked corn fields I was hunting. I since long ago lost that as well as all mu private land to out of state outfitters that so plague Midwest states like Illinois.
Now it can fairly be said there was no guarantee I would have made either shot, but considering how much I shoot and my love of shooting IMHO, the odds were in mine NOT the deer's favor. I actually own a sporterized 96 Swedish Mauser in 6.5x55 that I use as my all around practice rifle, as I can shoot 20 rounds of 6.5x55 for the cost of approx 2.5 slugs. Its a great little shooter I bought and never had a use for until one day it dawned on me to use it to prep me for each years deer season. Saves me a truck load of cash VS shooting slugs, and wear and tear on my 338, 300 and 7mmstw.
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Post by Dave W on Oct 31, 2014 13:18:16 GMT -5
Art, I have the early/old style Ithaca DSIII with a 26" HEAVY walled barrel, 1-35" twist. I currently shoot Remington 3" Accutips, that's what I've been shooting for quite a while, never had a misfire or a deer get away (yet) the Winchester XP3's shoot equally as well, as did the Win partition golds and the Remington Core Loct's. The Accutips and XP3's have proven to be much more effective on deer for me, especially at distance. Most of the deer I have shot with my Ithaca have been beyond the 100 yard marker with the furthest being 228 yards IIRC, and that shot was made with the Remington Core loct ultra's, off hand.... I feel for ya on the money blown messing with slug guns and ammo, I'm right with ya.. Ive had quite a few of em too.. Maybe I got a one in a million slug guns, but whatever the case, I'll take it and I have all the confidence in the world in it, every time its in my hands... I will say this, my neighbor and friend had a custom tar hunt slug gun, the best one money could buy, after shooting our guns side by side it forced him to send the tar hunt back at least two times, before he ended up eventually selling it. And as a total confidence booster, I took a shot at a 300 yard target with the ithaca and it was witnessed, maybe the witnes'ee will chime in.. it was an accuracy test only, a slug may likely bounce off a deer at that distance. I have no doubt that SML's have the advantage out at distance, that's why I have some, but call it a one in a million guns or call it luck, inside 200 yards my slug gun is an advantage imo. If it had been a deer and didn't move, he would have heart shot it. Time of flight was foreeeeeeeeever it seemed. My jaw nearly hit the ground, I will never forget that. I should have made him empty the gun to see if he could do it again. Was it luck-more than likely, none the less it was impressive. We should take that gun over to Egypt and shoot a group at 300 sometime. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2014 13:18:15 GMT -5
I too have had to watch some walk away because of distance between us...and that eats at ya and is the #1 reason I got into the SML frienzy..
I leave my ithaca sighted in as seen in the pic above, and at 200 hold high shoulder and watch em fall. (I believe they have a 6" drop at 200 yards if zerod at 100 yards iirc, its been a long time since I tested them, now I just check for my 3" high zero and go hunting)
The XP3's sighted in the same has dropped a couple bucks in their tracks for my son at around the 180-190 yard mark.
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Post by artjr338wm on Oct 31, 2014 13:29:31 GMT -5
Ohioguy, I will gladly take you at your word because I have enough MOA sabot slug targets to know first hand superb accuracy with a slug gun is possible. I think what never ends up being discussed is just how much more difficult it is to get superb accuracy out of a slug gun VS a standard CF rifle, and there are several reasons for this. Most of which IMHO relate to the ammunition itself. I had a long discussion with Mr. Doug Henderson who is among the most knowledgeable people when it comes to sabot slug ammo and rifles. the short version of what he said is the there are accuracy impacting factors that are inherent to both plastic shot gun hulls and the sabots themselves that makes fixing during the production of the ammo cost prohibitive. He went on to say basically they can make accurate slug ammo, it's just no one would be willing to spend the money to buy it.
But I will admit the performance of your DS-III which I accept as 100% truth full, is something of a anomaly to me. I wish i was knowledgeable enough to be able to decipher as to why your gun shoots so well with so many different types of ammo. It has caused me to rethink my hard drawn conclusions.
As a comparison IMHO there is no better production slug ever made than my Browning A-Bolt. Like your DS-III it has a free floating barrel, a 1-35" twist barrel that is rigidly attached to the receiver like any other center fire rifle, as a matter of fact for all intents and purposes the A-Bolt is a 12 ga CF rifle. It has a excellent adjustable trigger, so why all the trouble with getting it to shoot well? I always thought the answer lies with the ammo, not the gun.
Do you or anyone else have any explanations as to why? love to hear them.
Arthur.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2014 13:35:47 GMT -5
I prob know the answer to this but I'll throw it out there... Any chance your barrel is getting plastic fouled?
Any chance the action has moved in the stock? Or chance the scope base or rings are letting you down?
Grasping for straws....
You are correct, if I had to slug hunt and couldnt have an Ithaca, it would def be the Browning!
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Post by artjr338wm on Oct 31, 2014 13:41:55 GMT -5
I would also like to thank you Ohioguy for listing the slugs that performed well for you. One of the few sabot offerings i have yet to try are the Winchester XP3's. With your DS-III having a 1-35 twist same as my A-bolt there stands a good chance they might perform well for me. I can carry two rifles while hunting and as I have some private ground now, lugging two rifles afield is not such a difficult or impractical proposition, especially considering I have both extremes in terms of shot distances from 400+ yards to about shoe lace close.
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Post by Dave W on Oct 31, 2014 13:59:12 GMT -5
Friend of a coworker has to clean his Sav. 220 after every 3-5 shots or it shoots all over the map. Just something to think about.
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Post by artjr338wm on Oct 31, 2014 14:01:44 GMT -5
No I check all you suggested each and every year pre season. I use MC-7 bore cleaner as it supposedly removes plastic fouling quite well and I clean until patches come out white, and I only fire about 15-20 shots BTWN cleanings. I double check rings and bases constantly. I own a good torque wrench and re-torque all action and ring screws yearly and before each seasons hunt. I'm re-torquing, NOT tightening more, that is the design purpose of a torque wrench. Also loose rings or bases will give themselves away in the resulting groups. Its not that I don't get acceptable accuracy as i do. My complaint is one lot of shells performs well, the next perform poorly.
One of the worst examples were a batch of Partition Golds. Solid 2.25" 100 yard 3-shot groups, still under 3" at 150, key holed at 200 yards and 6" groups. No explanation because the same lot# shoots quite well out of my Marlin 512. Only difference is barrel twist rate 1:35 VS 1:28. Called Winchester they had no idea, but were sure it wasn't the different barrel twist rates.
like I've been saying this stuff drives me nuts, and to my 10ML-II, which unless I try to push the performance envelope to the extreme of extremes, has always gifted me with minuet of deer accuracy at all practical ranges of those loadings.
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? What kind of slug guns do you shoot? (EDIT) sorry I see the guns listed now...
