A really Bad post

[rbinar]

8-)I knew that a post on bad shooting rifles was going to be needed. It may not be what everyone is looking for. Wasn’t it Whelen who said he talked about good shooting rifles because they were the interesting ones? Interesting or not this is about not so good shooting rifles. Unfortunately it might be yours.

If you read this board often you will see in the top many hints to help your rifle shoot. The lists of things that aren’t the rifle’s fault are there and it should help you around those pitfalls. Still what do you do when all are exhausted?

The first thing you have to decide is; how good should it shoot? Probably you already think, better than this, but have you higher goals than the factory? If your goal was to shoot better than the average 10ML there’s at least a 50% chance the rifle won’t meet expectations.

My expectations are a new rifle should shoot about 2 MOA or better with three shots and it should repeat that fairly regularly. If it did not I would be sending it back to Savage for a reason it won’t. If the factory reported it was accurate enough I would ask them how it was determined and if they shot it what load and components were used. I would even expect them to produce a target if I had continued problems.

If your gun is not new, you’ll have to be the factory. When this happens the problem is one of two types. The first type is a really wild shooting rifle. The second is a close but no so good shooting rifle. I actually like the wild type myself because they tend to be the easiest to fix. Near good shooters can drive you nuts.

Really bad shooters can have a fairly obvious problem like a stock binding on the barrel or a trigger jamming against the guard. Near bad shooters seldom show obvious problems.

Two problems for near shooters I’d like to address are receiver screw contact and rough barrels.

If a receiver screw contacts the pillar all sorts of bad things can happen. The results may be terrible or just not good. The problem is it’s hard to know if this is happening without some type of detection. I have a set of shouldered receiver screws that I use for this possibility. The screws are thinner than a regular 10ML screw. So there is more clearance in the pillar. More than once I have gotten out of a jam with these babies.

A near accurate rifle may be the result of a rough (it may not be “rough” but it’s still bad) barrel. Low cost barrels are just that and sometimes they act like low cost items act. However in the first days of this board many would polish their barrels. While I don’t suggest this before you know how your rifle shoots this process can indeed improve how an otherwise inaccurate barrel shoots. It should not be ignored for barrels that are near shooters.

I’m sure you have other ideas about not very accurate rifles so I’ll stop now.

[Al]

RB, not a bad post, it's a reality post.

Us shooters have to know our limitations too, practice makes perfection, then toss in the recoil factor with the top end loads, and it'll get the best of everybody eventually.

[dougedwards]

I received my Savage 10ML back from Savage after they installed a new barrel on it. They discovered a slight bulge in the old one. They also sent me a target of a 1" group shot at 100 yards with 42 gr IMR4759 and 250 gr XTPs. While I am able to repeat the grouping using 4759 and 250 gr SSTs my usual loads using mega doses of 10x or Reloder 7 with 300 grain bullets are very inconsistent.

Could this be the result of a rough bore? Should I check for other problems even though the rifle shoots well with the slower shooting load? Or.......is two short shooting sessions not long enough to made new discovery of powder/bullet combinations in the new barrel? I sort of assumed that the new barrel would shoot very similarly to the old one.

Doug

[rexxer]

rb-I believe there are alot of so so guns on this board. Most people are only going to post their best groups or their once in a lifetime group. I also see the same same great group somebody shot over and over on the board. Don't get me wrong,I love great groups but sometimes I think people can get false expectations on what their guns should shoot. How many great groups where spoiled by the next shot.

I think you numbers of 2MOA are fair and real numbers with stockers! I would expect better results with the Pacnors!

[ET]

RB

That is a sound post.
My personal belief is that a lot of owners would have better shooters if they were more familiar with their muzzle-loaders and the simple needs or principals for making it a better shooter. Here there is a learning curve that some need to go through. The manual is very lacking for such information. Found this board and the education really started from many experienced members one such as yourself.

I remember when I first started out 1-3/4” groups was the norm but knowing others were doing a lot better drove me on a quest for that MOA group. Rexxer is also right that mention of great groups and sometimes pictures fueled that desire to strive for the goal of a shooter from a factory muzzle-loader. That took time and modifications to get there for me. A lot was learned as I progressed and believe there are no shortcuts here. Just glad I made the journey from the map laid out by others here.


Ed

[dannoboone]

I had the one described as the "near shooter" type. When the
condition of the barrel was "jest right", it got 3/4" 150yd groups.
Getting it "jest right" used up too much powder and bullets for
my taste.

Bedding it and using dummy action screws wrapped with tape let
me know the action screws were not going to touch the pillars, so
it had to be the rough barrel. Several methods of plastic removal
were used, and it was time consuming.

Last year, this problem was solved with a PacNor barrel. That's
sad.....I really like Savage.......if only they would get their barrels
smoothed out.........AND give the .45 option!

[12ptdroptine]

I am very new to smokeless. So far my best load is my first try. 44gr of aa5744 and a 250gr sst. That got me a 2" group on my first trip this winter. But that aint gonna cut it. I have been slowly gathering supplies and knowledge . I have 5744 4759 and 4198 for powder and some 300gr BO and 250 gr Xtp and still the sst. I am the type of person that wants the most out of anything it has to give. That means to tweek the most out of it that there is. I bought this gun to be able to shoot deer with it out to 250 yds. Further if possible. From what I have read here, I believe that can be achieved. If not then I will have to explore other option's. I have an Encore that shoot's submoa on an average day. I would love to make my savage able to out shoot it. It is a slower process than I thought it would be. However the weather and lack of motivation hasnt helped any this year. Drop

[Harley]

When my SS .50 wouldn't shoot I discovered it had been delivered from Savage with a bulged barrel. Savage replaced that barrel and sent loading information and a fired target that grouped .5". Wonderful, I thought. Using the same components Savage had used, I couldn't keep the shots on paper. That's why I'm a .45 Pac-Nor shooter.

Harley

[sagittarius]

Most guys here know about my Savage barrel only getting 8 to 10" groups.
I suspect, mine was bulged from the factory as the very first time I loaded a sabot into it, the pressure of loading it eased off about 2" from the breech plug so, I know, I'm not responsible for the bulge if there is one !
I made this comment before on the old board but no one seemed to pick up on it or ignored it without making a comment.
In hindsight, I should have sent my barrel back to Savage but, after reading where a few other guys sent theirs in and received a target stating their rifle was fine made me lose faith that Savage would actually do anything about it.
So, I finally gave up, said to hell with it, and ordered a Pac-Nor.
Best decision for me in years !
Nothing bad about this topic; good thread !

[smokeless77]

What it sounds like to me is a savage will cost you around a grand to buy,to make it a shooter.

$600.00 rifle
$400.00 custom barrel

[rexxer]

$1000 sounds like a bargain! I wish I went that route.

[Chris Champion]

What it sounds like to me is a savage will cost you around a grand to buy,to make it a shooter.

$600.00 rifle
$400.00 custom barrel

I disagree. There are many shooters on this board whose rifles are consistent 1.5 MOA or better shooters with more than one load without having to spend the extra money on a new barrel. My 50 caliber (laminated stock, unbedded) almost always shot 1.5" or better groups with my best load. If it didn't then it was my fault because I either pulled the shot, didn't wait long enough between shots, or it was time to clean the gun. There were some combos that would never shoot less than 3" and thats just the nature of the beast. Now, 1.5" groups aren't bench rest groups and thats fine. The stock Savage is not a bench rest gun. Even with an aftermarket barrel it's never going to be a bench rest gun. I feel that many need to get this into their head. Its a muzzleloader and whether sabotless or with a sabot there will be loading inconsistencies not seen with a cartridge rifle. Savage promises 1.5" groups at 100 yds. If thats what your gun shoots then congratulations, you got what you paid for. If it will not shoot a book load at least 2" or better then its time to send it back to Savage for a look.

[rexxer]

To really get the most out of your Savage you have to know what groups you can shoot with a low recoiling accurate gun. I have friends who can't shoot any better than 5 " at 100 with a light center fire so why would they shoot a hard kicking .50 any better. I also have friends that sight their guns in off the side of a tree ,or car hood. I'm not saying you can't do this but there are better ways if interested in smaller group size.

What I don't understand is Savage seems to have a excellent reputation for accuracy in center fire and rim fires. I have seen where some Savages were the most accurate guns that they have ever tested. When it comes to muzzle-loading I don't know if that statement is as true..It seems that most black powder in lines will hang or out-shoot the Savage at the 100 yard mark.

I still have to question the sabot as the weak link in the .50.

[sw]

:)RB, I think this is an excellent post. Possibly Sav barrels are better now than the 1st SS 10-ML2 barrels were. I found 2 things that made 2 barrels better, much better. My early SS barrel was so rough that it just shredded sabots. I fire-lapped it and polished the crown with 220grit/marble. It became a real shooter. Another CM barrel, I lapped with lapping compound(always from the breech) and re-fined the crown on it. It, too, became a "shooter". This might be an avenue to better accuracy for many who want improvement of their stock Sav barrel. In the CF world, those who really strive for accuracy normally re-barrel with a custom barrel. If that type of accuracy is desired with the 10-ML-2, re-barreling is a good option. The speed of the smokeless MLer allows the use of a lighter/smaller diameter bullet such as 40 or 45 caliber. As smokeless powder came into play, people didn't keep shooting 45 and 50 cal bullets in their rifles but went down in caliber and bullet wt. People hunt elk with 30 and 35 cal rifles now, some even 270. When I was growing up, there was common discussion of whether the 270 Win was just too powerful/dangerous to hunt deer. Now, some consider it marginal, but I digress ... IMO, the 45 sabotless or saboted and the 40 represent the pinnacle of smokeless MLing.
A custom barrel 50,45, or 40 will improve most 10-ML2s and it should, it costs more and is of better quality.

[bigmoose]

I hate to throw cold water on the party, my .50, has the orginal Savage barrel, Its a Ball Special, so it has the action screw, everything else is standard. Its a shooter and has been from the day I got it. It shoots MOA with book loads, and 1' to 1 1/2 with full loads 350gr Barnes, 68 to 70 gr { depending on the weather}H4198.
If I get a poor group, its the shooter NOT not the rifle. Savage test fires the rifle in an indoor tunnel, when I was having a problem with the Ball, I sent it to Joe {didn't know Rick than} After finding the problem, he sent it back with two targets 1 1/4 groups, I sent them a target after I got the rifle back, just under 3/4". We had a laugh out of that.
If I could hold up to the recoil of the heavy loads, as I could even fine years ago, I'm sure the Ball would shoot one inch groups, but in truth, a Moose or a Brownie wont be able to tell if its a 1' group or 1 1/2 "

[12ptdroptine]

I have been an avid archer for many year's now. I have found that for my personal ability that I need to keep my arrow speed in the 285 to 295 fps range. After that point I find that my accuracy suffers. My form flaw's show up more.. And then the confidence factor shows up. Along with target panic (the fear of missing) usually punching the trigger. And so I am wondering about the same effect on the Savage smokeless . While we keep our loads in the preferred range . The sabot performs as it should. And when we push the margins in order to get more fps. There is a trade off somewhere else..Recoil...Damaged sabot's..poor accuracy. I feel that each load has a Threshold of each...and we have to ask ourselves this question. Do I want to be the fastest? Do I want to be the most accurate? Do I want to have the most sore shoulder? (OK not funny). So I believe that is why we work up the best all around load for each of us. I as yet do not know what my Savage is capable of yet. I usually tell people I wont own a rifle that won't shoot moa (and I don't as of yet) And I will give my Savage the best chance I can..I am sure I can get it there..If not then I will just have to admit that it is what it is and go from there. But for now I am just waiting for some more range time. Drop

[sagittarius]

" I also have friends that sight their guns in off the side of a tree ,or car hood" .


Jeez, Rex.
What part of the South are you from ? ;D

[rexxer]

Chris-I agree there are many shooters on this board whose rifles are consistent 1.5 MOA or better shooters with more than one load without having to spend the extra money on a new barrel. I opted for the Pacnor more for a project and maybe less recoil. My stock.50 shot in the 1-2 inch range most of the time if the barrel was cool.

I do believe that there are some problem guns out there too. There are to many guys out there with strong shooting back grounds to say it doesn't exist.I understand that these are not bench rest guns but alot of this board is dedicated to searching for the most accuracy out of the Savage.If your exhausted with all your efforts and still not satisfied then a new Pacnor might be your answer!

[rexxer]

Mar 29, 2009 13:28:57 GMT -5 sagittarius said:

" I also have friends that sight their guns in off the side of a tree ,or car hood" .


Jeez, Rex.
What part of the South are you from ? ;D

Paul-You really hurt me! I thought you were my friend and now this! I had that one coming didn't I? ;D

[Harley]

Sag, Rexxer isn't from the South; I am.

Harley

[sagittarius]

Paul-You really hurt me! I thought you were my friend and now this! I had that one coming didn't I? ;D [/quote]

Rex, I shouldn't be the pot calling the kettle black as I'm from Ky.
But, at least, I'm not from Eastern, Ky. ;D

[chuck41]

Mar 29, 2009 13:00:29 GMT -5 rexxer said:

. . . . . . .

What I don't understand is Savage seems to have a excellent reputation for accuracy in center fire and rim fires. I have seen where some Savages were the most accurate guns that they have ever tested. When it comes to muzzle-loading I don't know if that statement is as true..It seems that most black powder in lines will hang or out-shoot the Savage at the 100 yard mark.

I still have to question the sabot as the weak link in the .50.

Rexxer,
I have to take exception to your comment about most black powder inlines out-shooting the Savage. I now have a .40 PacNor on mine, but back when it was the standard out-of-the-box ML10-II it would consistently out shoot every black powder rifle in our deer camp, as well as the ones that showed up at the same time I did at the range. It had no bedding at that time and no extra pillar screws. That was more than a dozen muzzleloaders at the deer camp and at least half of those were in-lines. Several of them were more expensive guns than my Savage.

Mine never quite got true MOA performance, but with my best load (41gr 4759, 200gr XTP with Blue HPH 50/40 sabot) it would consistently group in the 1 1/4" to 1 1/2" range. 250gr XTPs with factory loads were usually around 2" and sometimes a bit less. I didn't like the 300gr pills because of unnecessary recoil so didn't use them much. Other guys talked about better performance than that, but when I actually shot right side by side with them I usually ate their lunch.

I went to the .40 not because of unacceptable accuracy, but because I wanted to get away from the sabot situation. Down here in Arkansas if you want to shoot at a range it is just too much wait time between shots if you want any consistent performance. We just don't have that much cool weather outside of the hunting season and hot weather and sabots really don't mix.

The standard Savage ML10-II as it comes from the factory can be a pretty accurate rifle and certainly can compare very favorably with other standard muzzleloaders in factory delivered form. Sure some have problems, but that happens with the competition too. It's just not talked about much on this particular board.

[kevin k]

i must have got lucky also. just started shooting mine it is a 2001 but was still new blued syn stock it shoots AA 5744 at 45g 250 or 300 xtp 1'' or less so far until 3rd or 4th shot today at 100yards let it cool and its right back. but when i tried 4198 at 65g was all over the place tried r7 at 50g was 3'' higher but group was under 1'' still have a lot of playing but i can hit were i aim if im deer hunting i shouldn't have to rapid fire. so far less powder seems better dont know have a long way to go oh ya i did bed lug as it was not touching an drilled action screw little on bottom larger on top threaded top put smaller set screw in from top so you only have to put smaller allen wrench in and back off but screw can not come out bottom seems to shoot gr8 kevin

[rbinar]

Whoa! I didn't know it would get this big and emotional responses. Here's what I mean.

1 The Savage is above average in accuracy. The many who love their factory equipped rifles prove that. The post is about a small percentage who have less accuracy than acceptable.

2 Yes converting or changing to a Pac-Nor barrel makes many rifles very accurate. They wouldn't sell many plus $300 barrels if they didn't work. But a new custom barrel makes almost every rifle shoot better. What do shooters do when that's not an option?

There are things that an be avoided:
1 The front scope mount screw bottoming.
2 Using less than .451 caliber bullet.
3 A primer with inadequate fire.
4 Really dirty and crudded breech plug and barrel.
5 An over sized vent.
6 No or little cooling time between shots or shooting in HOT weather
7 Load and components your rifle doesn't like.

But what if all this is done and probably "then some" in many cases? What can we do to help then? One thing I'd like is some method to know what's been tried and a systematic list to move forward. If this is in the "hints" section already I apologize for not referring to that.

[rexxer]

Chuck- I have two friends that shoot Thompsons that can stay with me any day at the 100 yard mark and they are not even weighing powder. The local gun shop pushes the Green barreled Knights and they can shoot really great groups too. I have heard guys like droptine saying his black powder gun was shooting 1MAO and I have seen Grouses many groups shot with his Knight. To say a black powder can't shoot with a stock Savage I don't believe it. I would guess that Sag, Harley, Richard would agree with this too.In fact alot of these guys can't believe all the fuss we go about to make our guns shoot.

[boarhog]

I don't know enough yet to say I have a rifle that needs to go back to Savage. Only had 2 short shooting sessions of 10-12 shots. Most were used to sight in the scope (Changed rings between sessions) I know that I have many things to try before I give up.

Today: Temp 64F Beautiful, sunny day.
All loads 43 gr SR-4759
256 Gr hard cast, Keith style, .452 bullet
CCI-209 primer
MMP standard black sabot
Avg. Vel. 2051 fps
ES 45
SD 19
Group appx 3"

My first shot, I tried a MMP EZ with the same bullet. It was obvious that the sabot was too loose when I pushed it home. When I pulled the trigger it was a blooper. I thought I would try another primer, but was going to make certain the bullet/sabot was pushed solidly back down on the powder. Oddly, the ramrod caught in something and I pulled the sabot out. One of the petals had folded in against the rod and held it tight enough to pull out of the barrel. I pulled the BP and found that the primer had fired, but the powder had not burned. Apparently the primer alone had enough oomph to push the bullet out of the barrel, but left the sabot behind.

The second oddity was on the last shot. All of my previous good shots were across my Oehler chrono, and were averaging around 2050. The final shot jumped up to 2404 fps! My first thought was that I had managed to dbl charge the load, but I re-checked my powder loads, and I had used only enough to match the bullets used. I can only surmise that I mis-weighed one of the charges, although I would think I would have noticed the difference in that one charge. A difference that would result in 350-400 fps increase should have been fairly obvious in the Daily Pill Caddy us old folks normally use to keep our life extending concoctions organized.

One other thing I noticed is that the edge of my rifle's crown was shaving plastic off of the sabots. I was using a Barnes alignment jag on my short starter that may have been holding the sabot against the crown, but I'll have to watch that more closely next time.

[tar12]

Boarhog the dia. of your loading jag is to large.Find a smaller dia. .50 jag or get a .45 jag.That will end the shaving and pulling the sabot/ bullet back off of the charge.Your velocity swing may be due in part to the inconsistant seating pressure/jag issue..

[cgg]

I have exactly the kind of rifle rbinar is talking about. It's been very finicky and a PIA. I almost quit and sold it a couple times. After over two years and 900+ rounds I have figured out that it likes slower powder and 300 grn bullets. It has a tight bore and I fought to get MMPs and 250 grn XTP's or SST's to shoot with "book" powders and it just wasn't happening. I worked with a pile of .458 bullets and MMP Orange sabots because it seemed people loved them, but my rifle sure didn't. I double checked scopes and mounts etc. I put it in a B&C Duramaxx stock (it was factory plastic/ss).

I finally went to a non-book powder and 300 grn XTPs with Harvester sabots. 63.0 of Reloder7 and 65.0 of H4198 with Harvester SB sabots will do three shots under 1.5" consistently. Both average just under 2200 fps. I never have found N120 to try. I wish VV would get their distribution act together. I did not want 300 grn recoil, but with the Duramaxx stock it is not that bad, and the accuracy is worth it. I actually almost like the rifle now...

BTW and FWIW, I have a pair of T/C Omegas that routinely outshoot the Savage at 100 yds with 300 grn XTP's and Harvester CR sabots and 777 or Blackhorn209. But the Savage generally beats them at 200 I think just because the extra velocity of the Savage fights the wind better.

[boarhog]

tar12,
The Barnes alignment tool I have is for a .50, but it is pretty tight. It will only go into the barrel about 2" without sabot and bullet. I have a homemade gizmo I made for my cap and ball pistol that should work OK.

[sagittarius]

My Remington 700ML using Triple 7 pellets will easily group 1" or less at a 100 yards if I do my part.
The Knight Long Range Hunter is a really accurate rifle too.
Not trying to argue the superiority of one rifle over another; just stating an observation.