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Post by chuck41 on Mar 29, 2009 22:59:50 GMT -5
Chuck- I have two friends that shoot Thompsons that can stay with me any day at the 100 yard mark and they are not even weighing powder. The local gun shop pushes the Green barreled Knights and they can shoot really great groups too. I have heard guys like droptine saying his black powder gun was shooting 1MAO and I have seen Grouses many groups shot with his Knight. To say a black powder can't shoot with a stock Savage I don't believe it. I would guess that Sag, Harley, Richard would agree with this too.In fact alot of these guys can't believe all the fuss we go about to make our guns shoot. My comment was pointed toward your original statement, "It seems that most black powder in lines will hang or out-shoot the Savage at the 100 yard mark."I have no doubt that some guys with some BP guns can compete with or outshoot the average ML10-II as it comes in the box at least some of the time. My comment was pointed primarily to the generalization you made "most black powder in lines" because in my experience that just tain't so. As far as the weighing powder versus dipping, you can do that with the proper selection of loads with the Savage too, even with smokeless powder. I used both weighed and dipped loads with my 50 and as long as I was not right up against the maximum loads I usually saw little difference in 100yd groups between the two. I don't know if any of the guys I have shot with had the specific rifles you mentioned, but I do know that the fabulous accuracy claims some of these guys quoted usually did not show up at the range, at least not when I was there. All this is not to say that a properly chosen BP inline with the proper load can not shoot accurately for an experienced BP shooter. That simply isn't true. It is saying that "most" BP inlines as they come out of the box will not outshoot most ML10-IIs as they come out of the box when both are using the factory recommended loads.
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Post by Dave W on Mar 29, 2009 23:06:26 GMT -5
Two of the three guns I have shot are shooters, they are stock except for JBing the bore and mine has a recessed plug but it still shoots good with an OEM plug. The third one was a hair puller, the bore was extremely rough. It is getting a new barrel from Savage as I write this. Bad barrels get out of the factory unfortunately, but from the groups I have seen on mainly the old board, there are a lot of shooter barrels that come out of the factory also.
I don't think it is fair to compare a smokeless gun to a BP gun, the smokeless gun is shooting at higher pressure and stressing components more, naturally barrel quality is going to be more critical, so unless identical loads were shot through a BP gun, "which would probably not be a wise thing to do", you cannot be sure they would not have accuracy issues also.
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 30, 2009 5:51:25 GMT -5
It is hard to say what another marksman can do, I can only speak for myself, I had three Knight rifles, that I shoot for some years, they were excellent rifles, I opted for 54 caliber. I was very happy with their accuracy, till I read about the Savage in an article by Toby Bridges.As accurate as the Knight,s were, And I spend lots of time shooting them, I never shot a one hole group, with one.....if that is important? so I would say from MY experience the Savage gets the edge in accuracy. The 54 with full loads, was a stonger recoiler than the Savage, as always, in my opinion. A big plus for the Knights was lighter weight The best proof, is after I got my first Savage, I sold the knights,
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Post by rexxer on Mar 30, 2009 9:05:30 GMT -5
Dave D quote: I don't think it is fair to compare a smokeless gun to a BP gun, the smokeless gun is shooting at higher pressure and stressing components more, naturally barrel quality is going to be more critical, so unless identical loads were shot through a BP gun, "which would probably not be a wise thing to do", you cannot be sure they would not have accuracy issues also.
I would have to agree with you Dave. I'm sure at higher speeds the sabot is on the edge of failing or is failing. I guess what I was trying to say is just because you bought a Savage doesn't mean your gun will be superior to a black powder in-line in accuracy at the 100 yard mark.
Bigmoose- If you are referring to shooting one hole groups with a stock Savage you are one of the few. Was it your Henry ball special that was out shooting the Knights. You probably purchase the Henry ball because it was already bedded and I think even a different pillar system. I'm sure you purchased this gun on the idea that it would shoot better than a stocker and that is why you were willing to part with the extra money.
Chuck-I understand what you are saying about people not being able to back up their mouths with their shooting. Out shooting guys in a deer camp could mean alot of different things. I sure a lot of hunters out there do not visit forums or try the many different combinations to find greatest accuracy. Many of these guys are just hunters and not shooters.
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Post by Buckrub on Mar 30, 2009 9:52:08 GMT -5
What a great thread. It brings a LOT of things to mind. In no particular order: 1) Rexxer, I take umbrage (harumph) to your last statement. I realize that this board, even, is pretty much mixed as far as 'just hunters' and 'just shooters'........but I consider myself both. I do NOT SHOOT ENOUGH to be a GOOD shooter........and I don't hunt enough to be a GOOD hunter....but I sure as heck will be happy to shoot with anyone, even at this advanced age and eyeball acuity....with this ML, including the 'shooters'. I don't know why a man would think someone can't be both? Where would that idea come from? If a man's target is alive, why does that make him less of a good shooter than the man who shoots paper?? 2) I read repeatedly about how to change 'recipes' if your gun doesn't shoot well......that maybe another load will shoot better, that maybe shaving or adding a grain or two will turn the corner. I understand all that. But I have to admit that I have been the luckiest guy here because regardless of the recipe, my Betsy has shot the lint out of gnat's navels at 100 yards or more!!!! I have finally stopped looking for recipes, having discovered the one that PERFORMS best and is also accurate.......and I'm going to give away all my other powders and bullets to a friend. But there are indeed guns, like mine, that'll shoot any dang thing you feed 'em, apparently. 3) With #2 being said, I continue to be absolutely flabbergasted at the degree of variance in these weapons, out of the box. If my Win Mod 70 .30-06 or Tikka .270 was like that, I'd sue someone. I would think that the difference is in US, not the gun. This would be especially true since we are making hand-built 'quasi-cartridges' with every shot. But even that is not valid, because some guns that cannot shoot well, are fixed and later shoot great! So why are these made so differently and other guns are not? That has floored me since I first found this Board. 4) I can understand why some folks go to great lengths to make 'bean field' rifles out of these things........it's all they have. There's no alternative. I'd do the same thing. But a simple out of the box .50 cal can shoot great, with sabots. I promise it can. You just have to listen really hard to RB and Edge and Richard and SW and...and....and...on and on....and pay attention. And if you do all that and still don't have a shooter (like RB said in his original post here), then you can look at diff barrels, etc. With all that said, I'm surely glad that folks here do experiment like they do, and share all their info here. This is just an amazing place and I find out every few days just how little I know. You guys are appreciated....in case no one has told you that lately.
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 30, 2009 9:57:07 GMT -5
rexxer, I brought the Ball, thinking, more expensive is better, which is nonsense. Maybe I'm lucky, but my first Savage, the one Rick, converted, to 45 was as good a shooter as any rifle I have ever fired, with Hornady 250gr.XTP bullets and 44grs of 4227, I shot groups I was reluctant to show folks, since it would be hard to beleive they were shot using a muzzleloader. As I have often stated bench shooting proves the rifle is a shooter, you are just pulling the trigger, I do have a target somewhere, of 5 shots off hand w/sticks, 2 1/2", I don't pretent its an average group, but than again I only posts the best group, the bad ones get thrown in the garbage ....fast
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Post by rossman40 on Mar 30, 2009 14:14:53 GMT -5
I have to agree with ET, I think that there is a learning curve on the 10ML. I do not think it is for the shooter that plans to shoot maybe 10 times a year. I was lucky and had a bit of experience with Savage centerfires before getting the 10ML. I was aware of the quirks of the action but nothing can get you prepared for smokeless saboted shooting, except maybe reading here and then nothing beats actual experience putting rounds downrange. While the BP/BP sub shooters do not have the performance of smokeless I think the BP/BP subs are very forgiving as far as consistency. And Doug and Dave brought up the point that when you start pushing the edge of the envelope all those little things come back to bite you. Another major problem is the recoil level as Al mentioned, not just how it effects the shooter but also the mechanical side with stock issues and sighting (scopes). It seems a lot of us have gone to extremes to tweak every bit of accuracy we can from the system. Of course we have fun doing it and the practice and experience we gain gives us an edge. Much more then the average guy that goes out and buys a TC or Knight, finds a decent load and is satisfied and shoots his less then 10 shots a year. My hunting buddies are happy with 3" groups at 100yds and rarely shoot over 100yds. I easily shoot twice as much with my 10ML in the off season as all five of them combined.
I think the start of the thread was what do you do when you just can not get the rifle to shoot. Savage has been very good with taking the rifle and test firing it. When you run into a situation where the factory can get 1.5" groups and the owner can not even with the same components as the factory then you know where the problem lies and you need to look close at what your doing. There is no good diagnostic tree to follow but when it comes down to having tried everything the barrel is the last resort or pretty much the only thing left.
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Post by ozark on Mar 30, 2009 14:39:37 GMT -5
There is a much wider gap between the accuracy of shooters than in rifles. I am satisfied that some shooters can shoot smaller groups using BP than some other shooters can using the gratest of MLs. The average shooter cannot shoot a one inch groupe at 100 yards consistently using the most accurate rifle made. Here is a test..... If you can hit a 8 inch paper plate using the offhand (standing) position consistently then you can shoot. If you can't do this then you need to learn how to shoot. Sorry for being blunt but you are either a marksman or you need some help and training. Good thread RB
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