Short Starters

[ET]

Mar 23, 2009 18:30:08 GMT -5 wilmsmeyer said:

With full bore bullets? A bullet slightly larger then the lands being squeezed down a hole...metal to metal....no chance on non-centering. How?

Now I am somewhat confused with this statement and question.
For brass cartridge reloading there is bullet alignment measuring tool to verify how well your bullet is set and will align too the bore. I have even read articles about if a bullet is even started slightly canted into a bore it will travel that length as such.

Mind you I am talking about the other end of the bullet starting into the bore that one would think it would align itself easier once started.

So what do you think about this bullet alignment tool available to reloaders and the articles concerning bullet alignment I mentioned?

Ed

[dpoor65]

I would be glad to buy 2.... if you guys plan to produce a few just let me know when and how much....after doing business with Harley once I would do business with him again without hesitation.....

[rexxer]

Et- The later version I was talking about was basically the same as what we made except the side loading port was eliminated. I was thinking of making the whole thing a little shorter and maybe even going down some on the diameters. Are you still with me so far? The bushing styles we used would no longer be used. I was thinking of using a brass bushing similar to a bore protector. This bushing would go between the ball and the jag and always stay with the short starter.

The sequence would consist of dropping sleeve over barrel.Dropping bullet down sleeve. Insert brass bushing into sleeve and push bullet. I can't see it getting much simpler except for the cutting of the taper to a flat and matching to the many barrels. I would guess that the stock .50 are all pretty close. The guys with the pacnor's barrel lengths are all over the place.

Ed,the bushing idea you where describing is not what I was thinking but might be worth looking at. If anybody has any ideas or would like to take over this project please jump right on in!

Hillbill has been talking but he needs to hurry up,the angry crowds awaits!!! ;D It would be a shame if Bill's has a better idea and you guys already have one ordered. I blame Harley for trying to get a starter in your guy's hand because without him pushing I don't think things would happen. Maybe Bill could give us a time frame later in the week and bail me out of this mess. Otherwise I have a friend who owns some cnc lathes who would give us a bid on our final design. Rex

[ET]

Okay I now know where you're at.
If I were to take this picture below with no port cut out and shorter body length on smaller diameter of sleeve assembly with removable brass bushing cap set in the end it would look something like this when put together. The brass end didn't take long to do but brass is pricey up here to say the least.


That would simplify it for construction.

Yep I think pandoras' box got opened with your idea for alignment loading. It sure got my interest in a hurry.

Ed

[younghunter86]

All of these ideas are better than I can come up with! Not to mention I don't have the tools to make on. The skills that people on this board have are amazing!

Thanks for trying to help people like myself. I would also buy one of these. Which specific version is best? I don't know, that's what you guys can decide!

[ET]

Just wondering if we are making this too complicated for what the tool is supposed to do. Wonder if you just made the bottom half of the tool where it fits over the muzzle and a good fit for the bullet channel. If the tool is supporting the bullet for alignment you should just be able to use a starter of any kind to push it straight into the bore even if your starter is a little cocked it shouldn’t be able to offset the bullet that is supported by the alignment tool. This should really simplify it and lessen the cost.

Ed

[wilmsmeyer]

ED,

I am not sure of the bullet alignment tool you speak of for cartridge rifles. However, due to a cartridge held bullet that has to "jump" out of a case, potentially into a throat, then smashed into rifling, the dynamics may be a little different then a carefully muzzle loaded projectile.

There may or may not be a case here for aligning a bullet squarely in a bore. I think I remember RB making the same claim I am trying to make a while back. I wish I could find the post because I'm sure he did a better job then I have.

However, I am just theorizing like the rest of us. Not sure how we could illustrate a crooked bullet in a bore. Sometimes just KNOWING or FEELING it's not crooked lets one rule it out as a variable. I am not knocking any devices here, just trying to feel the idea out.

[rexxer]

wilms- bullet shouldn.t be jumping across anything unless your shooting deer slugs. We always hand loaded so the bullet would just start touching lands when bolt was closed.

Do you think loading sabotless a bullet has more chance of base injury with or without the sleeve? Do feel loading sabotless the crown may be more or less protected using sleeve? Loading sabotless do you think loading ease is increased of decreased? Loading sabotless are your chances of slipping off increased or decreased by using sleeve.

[skin290]

Mar 24, 2009 6:26:43 GMT -5 rexxer said:

wilms- bullet shouldn.t be jumping across anything unless your shooting deer slugs. We always hand loaded so the bullet would just start touching lands when bolt was closed.

Do you think loading sabotless a bullet has more chance of base injury with or without the sleeve? Do feel loading sabotless the crown may be more or less protected using sleeve? Loading sabotless do you think loading ease is increased of decreased? Loading sabotless are your chances of slipping off increased or decreased by using sleeve.

Its perfectly acceptable to have jump between bullet and lands when reloading, as well as have them touch the rifling, it really just depends on the gun, cartridge and purpose.

For example, you will never be able to touch the lands in a Weatherby chamber...

[deadeye]

i'm still in for approx quantity 4,please post when finalized for ordering*********measured my 3 sav2"s od bore's@ very end#1-.840**#2-.841**#3-.832. anyone with a larger than .841 od

[rexxer]

What distance are you refering to as jumping? thousands,tenths,inches?

[rangeball]

Since my SMI barrel has a QLA, a sleeved starter isn't necessary for me, right?

[Harley]

Rex, if we're talking about handloading center fire cartridges we are in the range of .000 -.0X - .00X; ie. some rifles shoot best with the bullet touching the lands, others with a jump in the "hundreds" or "thousands" range. Both of my custom rifles, the 300 Win Mag and the 7MM-08, do best with a jump of .005". My 30-30 WCF pistol prefers .004". And, yes, it's that critical.

A lifetime ago I began reloading a Remington 722 in .222 Rem caliber by deliberately leaving the bullet long and having the closing action finalize the seating.

Harley

[Harley]

Rangeball, I had a QLA on my Omega, too. I'm trying to remember it, but am vague. I think, if the QLA is sufficiently restricted against the bullet you'd be okay without a short starter.

Harley

[rexxer]

Mar 24, 2009 8:29:47 GMT -5 rangeball said:

Since my SMI barrel has a QLA, a sleeved starter isn't necessary for me, right?

I would guess you already have what we are trying to achieve!

[rangeball]

Good to know, thanks

[skin290]

Mar 24, 2009 8:25:56 GMT -5 rexxer said:

What distance are you refering to as jumping? thousands,tenths,inches?

What I have always heard for standard caliber bolt guns, start incrementing .005 from .020 out all while watching for pressure signs...I have not had the time to experiment with this at all, just know it is accepted practice...I know pressure can increase without a "jump" --but its all in how you work loads up.

From the Shilen web site, here is some info:

What do you mean by "Throat to a dummy cartridge"?
Factory rifles are made with throats long enough to accept the largest bullet that is offered in factory ammunition for that chambering. So if the throat is long enough to accept a 200 grain bullet and you only want to use 150 grain bullets, then the throat is so deep you can't get the bullets close to the lands and keep them in the case. What this amounts to is the factory reamed out a couple of hundred thousandths (or more) of lands and grooves in the throat, which shortens the accurate life of the barrel by as much as 50%. All bullets and throats have a "preferred" stand-off or "jump" distance from ogive of the bullet to the lands. Handloaders "tune" their ammunition by experimenting with this distance. Generally speaking, all calibers tend to shoot better when close tot he lands. Weatherby rifles come with about 3/8ths of an inch of "free-bore" in them to help compensate for the high pressure the factory ammunition develops. If you intend to shoot factory ammunition in your rifle, then stay with a factory length throat as shortening the throat will probably show little or no increase in accuracy and may even prove detrimental. In fact, in Weatherby cartridges, this free-bore is necessary to avoid pressure problems when using factory ammunition. However, if you intend to hand load for your Weatherby cartridge for better accuracy, then throating to a dummy round is the ticket. When you send us dummy rounds to throat to you are, in effect, asking us to make the chamber to fit your ammunition instead of you being required to make your ammunition to fit the factory chamber. Make sure that your dummies will fit into the magazine of the rifle. If you aren't sure what to do. Don't be embarrassed. Just pick up the phone, call us, and we'll help you get it straight.

[rexxer]

Thanks skin 280- I needed corrected!

[skin290]

Mar 24, 2009 9:12:23 GMT -5 rexxer said:

Thanks skin 280- I needed corrected!

No problem, always good to have more tools in your toolbox! Your method was by no means wrong, and in some cases is the best option...its just that it was not the only (widely used) option, so more information is better, right!

[Flatland Hunter]

For those sabot users who index it would not be as "precise", you would be in the neighborhood but there would not be the same precision if you just dropped it into the sleeve.

For sabot users why not place the sabot first then put the outsert/short start assembly over the barrel? That would be very precise!

[smokeless77]

I would think once you get the base of the bullet started (sabotless) in the bore it would have to self center itself. if it decided to go in crooked I dont think you would ever get it down. I can see if you can't start the base of the bullet at all in the bore, a short starter would be your best bet. But I have been wrong before.

John

[rexxer]

John-I agree shooting sabotless if you could get it lined up straight it will pretty much go in straight. This is really the whole idea of the starter. The bullet is started straight while the seating force is applied in a straight line to the bore.

If you put pressure on a bullet and it tips, its bottom edge is already probably disturbed. This has to be much harder on the barrels crown when the bullets are loaded crooked before straightening back out. It would also take care or jag slipping off bullet on the initial push.

[Deleted]

rexxer, build and sell all you want, this is a very busy time for me, sons started baseball and dad is coaching, just got the savage back together & not had time to fire it yet much less whip out a starter. I have had all the material for two months, right after I ran the idea past Harley but needed a barrel to get measurements from, now I have a barrel, no time, and turkey season opens sat......Ill get one done eventually.....Bill

[smokeless77]

Rex, I agree 100%. If you cant start them in the bore by hand, I would definitly use a starter. I like to keep them just tight enough to start them down by hand, It works out well for me. To see if the short starter improves accuracy, I think you would have to shoot with and without the starter, and i think in time you will no.

[rexxer]

Smoke-Don't take this the wrong way my friend but you and rb talk about loading sabotless by hand. I'm not saying I know alot about sabotless but the only time I have ever had miss fires is on a loose seating load. With these pacnor barrels it seems if its loose from the start it will be loose all the way down.


I know some of the guys on here that have a reputation of shooting tight groups want their loads tighter than what you are insinuating. Are using a booster or single powder. Thanks Rex

[ET]

Wilmsmeyer

Here is some interesting reading and you can see the tool that measures run out (alignment) below when you scroll down.

www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.rifle-reloading-bullet-run-out.html

Another way to address alignment is with seating dies available for certain calibers.

www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/2,179.html

This is all I have at the moment to offer on the subject.


Ed

[smokeless77]

Rex, I use h-4198, n120, n110,4759 all single powder. I did fail to mention i have a conversion that uses solid brass module's, that I made with the LRP, to take place of the cut down 6mm brass.

John

[Harley]

Ed, I feel like I wandered into "modern centerfire". The two references you posted above are very familiar subjects to me. I've been aware for many years that run-out is the most neglected and probably the most singly important aspect of metallic reloading. I test run-out twice: once of the empty brass case, and again for the loaded round. In neither instance will I shoot a load with more than .003" run-out.

I also use exclusively the Redding bushing-based Competition neck sizing and seating dies for the same reason.

As far as I'm concerned, you've made your case.

Harley

[rexxer]

Harley-Know wonder your the long range champ. You been cheating using them customs! ;D

I can now see why you go into great details with your muzzle-loader.

Et-interesting read,learn something new everyday hanging around here.

[ET]

Harley

When you first introduced Rexxer’s alignment tool my thoughts jumped to alignment for cartridge rifles. I just felt that this could also really apply to muzzle-loading. As to how much gain I don’t know yet but any additional advantage or gain that results I’ll take it.

Also I am looking to see if a lighter weight field version of just sleeve and bullet channel is feasible. For a while the enthusiasm with shooting the 10ML-II was starting to slow down a little with just trying different loads in the future but now it just jumped a few notches.
Wilmsmeyer made a good point about longer bearing surface on saboted bullets such as the 250 SST might not be affected as much but I’m after lighter bullets like the 200-XPB and play load of 230-XTP for possible varmit load. Now if I can get these 2-puppies to produce some decent groups out to 200yd with the aid of this alignment tool it will take a face slap to wipe the grin off my face. ;D

Thanks for sharing that alignment tool design and to Rexxer for constructing a working model. I am having a blast with it and look forward to what results I obtain.


Ed