|
Post by Harley on Mar 21, 2009 7:47:14 GMT -5
I'm a little hesitant to write about short starters because I've got one that isn't available to anyone else, and don't want any hurt feelings; but, after using mine for the first time, yesterday, I'm posting as a "public service".
I've previously loaded without a short starter, with a short starter that was no more than a wooden ball with a jag screwed in, a one-piece plastic ball and extended rod/jag, and with the SpinJag Starter. The last, the SpinJag Starter, is a real breakthrough in terms of centering the bullet at the muzzle and thus giving the best chance of a concentric load. Its shortcoming is in the absence of a sleeve to keep the Starter lip in place when pushing a reluctant bullet into the muzzle.
Rexxer solved this with an integrated tapered sleeve that fits over the barrel, and further refined it with a loading port. E.T. has already duplicated that principle for himself. Hillbill is working on his own design.
I wouldn't know how to prove it, but I think this latest generation of short starters is going to prove significant in tightening groups, and I KNOW they cut starting effort down to almost nothing, with no risk of slipping off the muzzle or breaking the starter.
I don't think that the sleeves have to be tailored to individual rifles, either. They could have a gradual taper that would perhaps contact one barrel a few fractions above or below another barrel with slightly different dimensions.
I'd probably pay up to $49.95 if I needed one, and would guess that someone could make a good profit producing them for that price.
Harley
P.S.: Since posting this, I've heard from Rexxer. Without making any commitment, he wondered how much actual interest is out there if he should be willing to make a bunch of starters. So, please post your interest and feelings about the tentative price of $49.95. I didn't think to ask him if that was delivered or not.
|
|
|
Post by deadeye on Mar 21, 2009 8:43:38 GMT -5
great report & great work rexxer,his design & he should be rewarded if he wants to produce them. i know i would buy 4 if available, 1 for every sav/pacnor barrel i own!
|
|
|
Post by onecardchuck on Mar 21, 2009 8:56:16 GMT -5
I almost bought a spinjag loader but after reading the posting of your home made starters with that sleeve that goes over the barrel I held off. I am now glad I did as I would by one of these for my setup also. I am a .50 caliber savage as I know some of you are .45 caliber guys.
|
|
|
Post by ET on Mar 21, 2009 10:45:08 GMT -5
Harley Rexxer’s starter design, I believe will help for concentric loading. In my case I have added additional length to my plunger so that when the ramrod guide and spin jag are applied to the bore they will fit in place before continuing the loading operation. Also I have made it sabot friendly for my 50. Not loose enough for the sabot to fall through with one unit but with very little effort to get it moving with the plunger. I believe this should ensure the bullet to bottom into the sabot before continuing into the bore. Even got my brass end installed with a compression fit. Just needs a few finishing touches and alignment marks to maintain 2-land contact with the sabot then off to the races to see results once the ranges I visit are open again. $49.95 seems to be a steal after having built one. ;D Ed
|
|
|
Post by Harley on Mar 21, 2009 10:55:42 GMT -5
Ed, you've done a wonderful job. After shooting with mine yesterday I notified Rex that I needed extra length of the seating rod, also.
Once built or bought, it'll last forever.
Harley
|
|
|
Post by ET on Mar 21, 2009 11:10:56 GMT -5
Ed, you've done a wonderful job. After shooting with mine yesterday I notified Rex that I needed extra length of the seating rod, also. Once built or bought, it'll last forever. Harley Harley Well almost forever. The only part that I see that would wear is the plunger to alignment tool fit as it is a moving part making periodic contact. The brass end where the plunger makes contact on mine is at least 1” long. A light dry lubrication such as Teflon may well eliminate the possible wear condition. Then it should last better than a lifetime at least. Ed
|
|
|
Post by Jon on Mar 21, 2009 15:59:25 GMT -5
Loyd, I would also be interested in one of the longer reach short starters if they become avaliable. I have one of the spin jag starters in 45. It looks good but I'm always open for a better mouse trap. Jon
|
|
|
Post by dougedwards on Mar 21, 2009 16:36:25 GMT -5
I received my rebarreled Savage 10ML back from Joe Degrande and it is very strange that I am experiencing horizontal stringing of my groups. I somehow misplaced my SpinJag and I am wondering if the fact that I have no method of aligning the saboted bullet into the muzzle is the culprit since I only have a Barnes jag to use at present. I use no bullet starter. If the bullet starts down the muzzle in a cant position wouldn't I be experiencing groups that are more scattered than stringing laterally?
Shot a five shot group today with 250gr SST's that landed in a perfect horizontal line of four inches. Then started shooting the more rounded 300 gr XTP and grouped nicely at 1". Maybe coincidence but after reading this thread I am beginning to wonder how impacting the alignment of the bullet is into the muzzle.
Doug
|
|
|
Post by mike.dawson on Mar 21, 2009 19:08:37 GMT -5
I would pay for one, put me on the list for a 50 cal
Mike
|
|
|
Post by kevin k on Mar 21, 2009 19:32:42 GMT -5
has any one seen these on eBay item nu : 200322132894 just paste in search looks like it should work good could screw in short handle if wanted kevin
|
|
|
Post by Harley on Mar 21, 2009 20:02:43 GMT -5
Kevin, I just followed that lead to ebay; it appears to be a knockoff of the SpinJag, not the Short Starter. You could screw it in a ramrod or a short handle, like you say, but you wouldn't have a sleeve, and the sleeve is the whole point.
Harley
|
|
|
Post by northny on Mar 21, 2009 20:32:46 GMT -5
I would be interested in a couple (three)
|
|
|
Post by kevin k on Mar 22, 2009 12:07:48 GMT -5
Harley i thought that is what the alignment bushing was on that one on ebay might not work as well but should put it in straight could be wrong but price is right. kevin
|
|
|
Post by Harley on Mar 22, 2009 12:44:59 GMT -5
Kevin, I just went back to ebay for a closer look. The device is a three-part unit: spinning jag, universal spin adapter and alignment bushing. In actual use there appears to be an initial shortcoming: you push the bullet - unsupported - with the jag until the universal spin adapter enters the muzzle (looks like close to an inch). There is still no firm centering guidance until the bullet is pushed even deeper, finally allowing the alignment bushing to be seated within the muzzle. From that point on the bullet is fully supported, but I don't see the benefit since the bullet is already set on whatever degree of concentricity it acquired before the alignment bushing engaged.
You're correct, though, the price is right, and it's probably better than nothing.
Disclaimer: I could have gotten it all wrong.
Harley
|
|
|
Post by rexxer on Mar 22, 2009 14:18:37 GMT -5
Looks to me just a knockoff of the spin jag only a few bucks less. It looks to be long in the picture.
|
|
|
Post by wilmsmeyer on Mar 22, 2009 15:47:27 GMT -5
It is my opinion that there is no way for the bullet and sabot NOT to be centered in the bore once started....however you start it. The bullet and sabot will center itself. It can't cant. If you think it can, then explain.
Short starters may be useful though. Getting the bullet started before the big surge of the ramrod will help protect the barrel and crown from scuffing by the various jags we employ.
|
|
|
Post by Harley on Mar 22, 2009 16:08:27 GMT -5
Wilms, maybe it's semantics, maybe we should be saying the bullet is always CENTERED, but not always PLUMB. I'm picturing a difficult-to-start sabot-less bullet that requires a lot of downward force on the short starter or ramrod. If the jacket is of a certain thickness/hardness or less, and/or the bullet has been knurled, I can also picture the bullet's uneven engagement in the rifling if it's started at other than a plumb push.
For bullet/sabot combinations I think the short starter with a centering/plumbing device will mainly protect the crown and prevent the seating rod from slipping or breaking. That's worthwhile enough, isn't it?
Harley
|
|
|
Post by smokeeter on Mar 22, 2009 16:48:22 GMT -5
I think the starter is definitely beneficial in protecting the crown, there is a lot of downward pressure required to start sabotless bullets. It will also help in aligning the bullet straight in the barrel , there is a slight possibility that a bullet could go down the barrel crooked even though is seems unlikely with the close fit to bore sabotless bullets require. The other benefit is that it makes us feel better about doing everything that we can to ensure consistency. Kinda like indexing sabots, does it help dunno but it doesn't hurt.
|
|
|
Post by Harley on Mar 22, 2009 17:25:20 GMT -5
Smokeeter says,"The other benefit is that it makes us feel better about doing everything that we can to ensure consistency. Kinda like indexing sabots, does it help dunno but it doesn't hurt."
I should have thought of that; maybe would have been my best argument.
Harley
|
|
|
Post by ET on Mar 22, 2009 18:26:20 GMT -5
Wilmsmeyer
So you honestly believe a plastic sabot can’t be slightly deformed when loading to cant a bullet? It’s an honest opinion. A statement I can’t prove or disprove at this point in time. So lets take a look at some factors to be considered.
Can plastic sabot petal thickness be affected by compression pressure? That one I can answer yes because I have done that with a collect die to get the exact diameter I want for a sabot/bullet bore fit.
In colder weather we often get our best groups. Here I find sabots are more rigid with the plastic displaying a firmer property. Now lets warm up the ambient temp (not bore temp) and see what it does to the plastic sabot. It now becomes slightly more pliable.
Now loading the sabot/bullet to the bore with loading pressure offset from bore centerline forcing 1 or 2 petals harder against the lands do you think that those petals are being compressed or even slightly stretched making them slightly thinner than the other petals?
Okay down the bore we go with 1 or 2 petals that may have been thinned slightly. So do you think the bullet will position itself only to the flat bottom of the sabot or to equal support pressure from all 4-sabot petals?
Yes at this point in time without testing a lot of what has been said is just theory. Only testing especially as temps warm up that actually will be more revealing. So lets see what revelations materialize as summer approaches.
Ed
|
|
|
Post by rexxer on Mar 22, 2009 20:30:15 GMT -5
I would think a short starter would have to help shooting sabot less too. Not only should it be easier on the crown but also on the base and side of bullet. You have less lead in shooting sabotless. The bullet starts hard even the first 1/16 of inch. I feel this is where the bullet is most venerable,by taking more force to start the bullet it can be cocked or not started straight. This could lead to dented or sheared corners of the bullets base . Any base damage could easily result in loss of accuracy.
|
|
|
Post by willscarlet on Mar 22, 2009 20:49:24 GMT -5
The "longer plunger" modification sounds like a good idea, but will it entail higher priceing since, I'm assuming, Rexxer is using "stock parts" from SpinJag? Also, since I already have the SpinJag starter, would price be effected if I were to ship my starter to Rexxer? At any rate, I would definitely purchase one!
|
|
|
Post by rexxer on Mar 22, 2009 21:34:45 GMT -5
I have an idea that I would like to kick around with you guys. If a person would offer a Delrin sleeve would it be more pleasable to more people. The problem is with the amount of machining its hard to keep the price way down without having a mold and building thousands. One alternative might be to make just a tapered sleeve and a bushing that fit on your already existing short starter. Most people already have a short starter so why purchase one again.
The sleeve would be shorter but still have the taper end.This would make machining much easier than before. The tapered sleeve would slip over muzzle,bullet would then be dropped in from the top,eliminating the side port also. Your own short starter would now be used but with one small modification. A one inch long brass bushing similar to a muzzle protector would be sliding on your bullet starter.Put the bushing in the sleeve,push the bullet home. Pretty simple!!!
If something like this could be made for less than half the price as before would people still be interested. The only draw back I see is now you have two piece,the starter and the sleeve, maybe not a big deal to most.Centering bullets would be no different.There would still be two internal bores.The first or starting end would be larger and would get necked down right before entering muzzle.
I would like to hear your comments!
|
|
|
Post by Harley on Mar 22, 2009 22:40:51 GMT -5
I've read Rexxer's new idea about five times, trying to visualize it. Okay, a shorter sleeve than originally designed. I get that; it has two consequences: 1. no loading port; 2. an existing SpinJag starter you might already have would now be long enough to fully insert the bullet well within the barrel.
That tapered sleeve would, once the new bushing was inserted, make certain the bullet was aligned at the muzzle.
My problem is understanding the bushing. "A one inch long brass bushing similar to a muzzle protector would be sliding on your bullet starter.Put the bushing in the sleeve,push the bullet home. Pretty simple!!!"
When you say the brass bushing is sliding on the bullet starter, do you mean that it is permanently installed on the starter between the palm ball and the jag? If so, I've got the picture, and the only suggestion I have is that instead of dropping the bullet into the sleeve from the top, I'd set the bullet base down on the muzzle, then slip the sleeve over the barrel.
I think it's a fine idea; giving up the loading port is nothing. Like you said, it simplifies things for the people who already have a starter and it saves them money. Of course, they must have a starter long enough to go the length of the sleeve and into the muzzle. A SpinJag does, others might not.
For those people who either have a starter with a too-short rod or for those people without a starter, you could offer as an option a threaded starter rod without either a jag or palm ball.
Harley
|
|
|
Post by artjr338wm on Mar 22, 2009 22:50:26 GMT -5
If anyone is actually going to make this wonder starter available for sale please make sure to announce it loud and clear here at this sight on this board.
I have had several bad experiences with short starters and strongly feel they are a "must have item". My biggest problem has been finding one that is well made and will function perfectly if I do my part. I bought one when I first got my 10ML-II that was made out of black synthetic material. I thought "this is good, if I happen to screw up and make accidental contact with my crown I wont dammage it". I also bought a brass one with a synthetic black "T" handel at the same time. Well first time out using the all synthetic short starter and the threaded brass incert rips out when I tried to pull it back out of my bore once I was done using it. I was shooting 250grn XTPs for practice and the MMP sabot I was using extended past the top of the XTP far enough to get stuck between the barrel and my Spinjag. Luckly for me I had the back up to use. It is still the one I use today. I think it was made by Traditions.
I would also be interested in one as well.
|
|
|
Post by onecardchuck on Mar 23, 2009 16:07:09 GMT -5
I for one would have no problem buying a spin jag loader, which I was originally going to do anyway and then buying the sleeve from whoever made it to help address a short coming in the spin jag loader for better loading.
|
|
|
Post by ET on Mar 23, 2009 16:17:26 GMT -5
Rexxer
Hope I’ve read your post correctly so correct me if I’m wrong on my interpretation.
A taper sleeve is set down on the muzzle until it stops. Then a bushing is slide down into the sleeve until it makes flat contact on the muzzle. So the small tapered end of the sleeve has a specific diameter fit for the bushing to follow. After that it is just a matter of dropping the bullet in and chased with an existing starter.
Ed
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2009 16:25:00 GMT -5
hopefully I will get to work on my version in a few days, it will carry a bullet loaded in the chamber in a small holster and will be a speed loader, take it out, slide over the barrel and ram it home. the bullet will stay in the loader until time to use it . mine will be made from high density plastic.......Bill
|
|
|
Post by wilmsmeyer on Mar 23, 2009 18:30:08 GMT -5
In reply to ET's question:
I do not think it's possible to have a bullet crokked in the bore once it is encased by the sabot. There is way too much bearing surface even with 250 gr bullets for this to happen.
There would have to be a severly compressed top of a petal petal, along with a severely compressed opposing bottom-of-the petal relationship, THEN...what are the other petals doing? Holding the bullet just fine. Not happening.
With full bore bullets? A bullet slightly larger then the lands being squeezed down a hole...metal to metal....no chance on non-centering. How?
However... any devise that can protect the crown or help one start a bullet in a tight bore easily is very worthy of consideration.
|
|
|
Post by ET on Mar 23, 2009 18:36:28 GMT -5
Rexxer
Just an added thought if I read your post correctly. Once the sleeve and bushing are properly placed/fitted on the muzzle and the sleeve had a bit of lip where it contacts the bushing you could possibly bond the two pieces together making them one piece for a particular barrel. If you took something like an epoxy stick say plumbers use, cut-off a chunk, mashed it up to mix, quickly rolled a small string shape and applied it to this lip location carefully and neatly this might make a sufficient bond for the sleeve to the bushing. End result would be a non-fusion fillet weld so to speak.
Ed
|
|