Shouldering the load.. did I say ouch?

[rbinar]

We were discussing the 350 grain bullet for big bears, later someone mentioned a 350 grain bullet shot to the same speed as a 300 grain bullet with the same powder. Then there was a specific post about a 350 grain bullet (Barnes) so there have been repeated posts on heavy bullets. Today I’m going one step further.

When asked what 350 grain bullet to shoot the 350 grain Speer semi-spitzer came to mind. But wait it seems that’s not sold any more. So that leaves the Barnes and….nobody (I’m not counting the flat nosed bricks) unless you count the new 350 grain Swift that may not be available yet. So what to do?

This is a limited use bullet so perhaps 2 are enough but while looking for options I noticed that Barnes has a 400 grain so called BO bullet. I thought about it and decided if many shoot the 300 grain why not? Your answer may be the same as mine (recoil) but most would want this as an extreme range bullet for their 50 caliber rifle. Considering that stand shots from a rest are used a recoil reduction system would not make the rifle too heavy.

So with mercury system and cushy shoulder pad in hand a 400 grain bullet can be shot. I’d say that some of you could take it without aid. For the rest of us we are prepared for the worse. What’s the worse you ask? Oh about 2300fps is the worse. That’s correct he said “2300fps for a 400 grain bullet”.

Why so fast? It is a LONG range bullet so the same speed as commonly shot with a 300 grain bullet put them on equal levels. However since the sectional density (and thus BC) of the 400 grain bullet is 25% more a considerable down range advantage should be available. One must be careful when selecting a bullet just on numbers. Here I encourage the same thing. Marginal gains are usually not worth the trouble. Marginal gains are normally considered less than 10% to 12%. Here we have a gain of 25% no one considers that marginal.

How could it be shot? Literally a dozen powders would work but the best are in the H322 to N133 burning range. This allows our speed and pressure without excessive amounts of powder. Somewhere near 80 grains of N133 would be about right in my mind with some development needed but it won’t be hard. Heavy bullets are easy to shoot in .50 caliber.

So is anyone ready to shoulder a real bullet?

[smokeeter]

Mar 19, 2009 20:01:47 GMT -5 rbinar said:

So is anyone ready to shoulder a real bullet?

I vote Big Moose, they don't call him BIG for nuthin.

[bigmoose]

Paul,

Till just now I thought we were Moose Brothers, but not for the first time I was wrong. Big yes, dumb maybe, too old definitely.
But if you can't anyone else why not.

[smitty]

RB,
I been wanting to try the 400gr BO.
What loads would you suggest with H322 ?

Thanks
smitty

[DBinNY]

I nominate Wilms.

[deadeye]

seems we are heading the "whitworth" direction,maybe we were trying to reinvent the wheel ;D

[wilmsmeyer]

Shooting the 370 LBT's at 2,500 should be about the same as a 400 at 2,300. If they had grouped better for me, I would have ran home everynight and begged for more...more...more.

The 400 BO is a nice looking bullet and seems to be getting into the "right" size for a big .50 hole. Anyone who wants to send me a box.....make my day.

[dans]

Yikes! Double Yikes! Doen't sound like fun. Manhood has been tested enogh over the years. I'll leave this one for the young and adventurous. (Read not so bright)

[bigmoose]

Dans,

You are a man after my own heart, I bow out to the younger, stronger, maybe not wiser gents.
Good Luck to all, and thanks for getting me off the hook, and saving my underwear.

[smokeeter]

Mar 20, 2009 5:26:52 GMT -5 bigmoose said:

Dans,

You are a man after my own heart, I bow out to the younger, stronger, maybe not wiser gents.
Good Luck to all, and thanks for getting me off the hook, and saving my underwear.

Hey moose, you told me you were a boy scout

[bigmoose]

Yes, I was, about 100 years ago, being a young strong man [you], you are not yet aware of what old age does to you. My wife has to feed me, read the newspaper for me, and you want me to volunteer to shoot a cannon and get knocked on my duff ;D
Paul, there was a time when I enjoyed shooting big bore guns, If given the chance, I'd have paid to shoot a 700 NE, even at a $ 100 a pop, but alas those days a gone forever,
But if the truth be known, when I owned the Lott, I would try to get other shooters to take a shot with it, only got one taker, and he call me some new names I never heard of. ;D ;D ;D

[redpep]

So how much recoil energy be would be felt shooting a 400gn bullet and 80gns of N133?

I currently use a 500gn lead conical on 80gns of t-7ff out of a 26" White U-Mag and have bench shot this same bullet with 110gn of t-7ff just to see what it does. How much recoil energy is this load producing?

I understand that my bullet is limited to 125 yds and the fps speed is alot slower.

thanks

[fowlplay]

As my buddy Cooter would say....."I might be crazy but I aint dumb"

[rbinar]

Mar 19, 2009 20:34:44 GMT -5 smitty said:

RB,
I been wanting to try the 400gr BO.
What loads would you suggest with H322 ?

Thanks
smitty

Load data for the 50 Cyrus shows that a 400 grain bullet can reach 2300+fps with 80 grains of H322. However the pressure is 39,000cup.

That may be near or past sabot limits but it clearly shows that starting at or just below 75 grains will be within sabot survivable limits. You may raise the charge in small increments until any sign of sabot disruption occurs (or 80 grains) is reached then go back down if disruption begins.

My own guess would be you'll be able to reach between 2200 and 2250fps with no sabot troubles at all. Even if you make it to 80 grains the 39,000cup level is child's play for the 10ML action and no where near a safety limit.

[rbinar]

Mar 20, 2009 7:08:59 GMT -5 redpep said:

So how much recoil energy be would be felt shooting a 400gn bullet and 80gns of N133?

I currently use a 500gn lead conical on 80gns of t-7ff out of a 26" White U-Mag and have bench shot this same bullet with 110gn of t-7ff just to see what it does. How much recoil energy is this load producing?

I understand that my bullet is limited to 125 yds and the fps speed is alot slower.

thanks

I cannot comment on the BP loads though I know they kick. All the loads mentioned with a 400 grain bullet aren't mild. They are much less than the near 2500fps you could get from a 458 Win Mag and are no more than a 375 Holland with a full bore 300 grain bullet load.

So even if it's not gentle this speed is not the most rough and tumble you could get by a long shot.

[rangeball]

Mar 20, 2009 7:08:59 GMT -5 redpep said:

So how much recoil energy be would be felt shooting a 400gn bullet and 80gns of N133?

Oh, only about 60 ft. lbs from a 9# rifle...

I currently use a 500gn lead conical on 80gns of t-7ff out of a 26" White U-Mag and have bench shot this same bullet with 110gn of t-7ff just to see what it does. How much recoil energy is this load producing?

I understand that my bullet is limited to 125 yds and the fps speed is alot slower.

thanks

I'd need to know the fps of this load to calculate recoil energy. Any idea?

[smitty]

Thanks RB.
I'll start with 75gr and work up in 1gr increments and see what my chrono reads.

[chuck41]

To quote an old saying, "Better thee than me, Gunga Din". I may be old, and I may not be too smart, but I'm smart enough not to shoot a 400gr bullet at near 2300fps from a 9 pound rifle.

Did something similarly as stupid many years ago from a 6 pound rifle (45-70) and would never want to repeat that experience! It hurt, and I was a young strong bull of a man way back then.

[bigmoose]

chuck,

Amen

[smitty]

Ah nothing like being called stupid : ) but that's fine everybody's entitled to their opinions which is what I love about this board. So if this bullet/load is accurate and I don't loose all my teeth before I get it to speed, maybe it will benefit someone one day ? ; )

[wilmsmeyer]

Anyone who shoots 2 Oz turkey load, Hi-vel goose loads, shot gun slugs from 870's.....No load have I shot in my ML10 has kicked as violent as these do.

If you do it, doctor up your gun with good recoil pads....pads. It will rock you but not so much that you see stars.
If you stay with the Savage butt plate you are asking for major recontructive shoulder procedures.

[redpep]

rangeball-
500gn conical with t-7ff might be going around 1250fps.

wilms-
My son shoots 3.5" turkey loads out of his NEF single shot shot gun. He prepeares himself by saying "ouch" before he pulls the trigger.

[boarhog]

Friends,
I have killed a number of turkey and geese with my H & A/NEF single shot 10 ga. Some using a 2 1/4 oz load that used to be available. It may still be, but I haven't looked lately. Those loads THUMP about as much as any I have ever fired, and I can honestly say I hardly noticed all but one. That was when I shot at a turkey while I was laying behind a log. The butt had slipped up too high on my shoulder. I thought I had broken a bone or two!!! Ouch.

If I was planning a dangerous game hunt, I think I would choose a premium bullet in the 300-350 grain range. Probably barnes X, since I've seen one of those pass completely through a large Elk,,,, the long way! Shooting 400 gr + in my Savage just doesn't sould like fun!

[rbinar]

Mar 20, 2009 16:37:52 GMT -5 smitty said:

Ah nothing like being called stupid : ) but that's fine everybody's entitled to their opinions which is what I love about this board. So if this bullet/load is accurate and I don't loose all my teeth before I get it to speed, maybe it will benefit someone one day ? ; )

Those who have heard me speak of recoil in the past know my feelings on the matter. I haven't changed my my mind but not everyone can go the route I have (smaller caliber) to enhance their rifle's performance.

This load is a compromise, it's sort of a Bad Bull 50 caliber solution with sabots. At 2300fps this load is still less recoil than the turkey loads listed above and many larger caliber rifles. The correct speed of powder at 110 grains could reach 460 Weatherby Magnum speeds.

However I'd prefer something at least a few people want to shoot. The way to handle this load if you feel you should is shoot all bench shots from a lead sled or do like me and use a 25# bag of shot between my shoulder and the rifle butt. The very few shots taken without recoil protection will be at game and those are less remembered because of the mind's preoccupation with the shot.

The 400 grain bullet loads I have mentioned in the past have gone largely ignored. This bullet may help some (even if only a few) take advantage of the ability of a long range capable load.

This bullet will have a curved flight compared to a faster model but it will stay at supersonic and stable flight for an extremely long range. Once the bullet path is known it can be accurate way out there. I'd expect (but would check it first) that a 2.5" high 100 yard target would produce 2" low at 200 yards and 300 yard shot would require an 18" hold over. A shot at 350 yards sounds problematic to me with over 2 feet of hold over required but some could do it.

Terminal performance is another subject but for deer hunting the tip is soft enough to provide at least some expansion at any speed and the SD dictates pass through at most any angle.

[bigmoose]

One of many fun things about this site is how wide spread the topic's are.
I think its safe to say, most folks posting here are deer hunters, yet we are discussing loads for T-Rex's," ya got to love it."
Keep it coming.

[mshm99]

rb, is the twist fast enough to stabilize that heavy a bullet? I tried some big cast 45-70 stuff a few years ago and got key holeing.

mshm

[rbinar]

Mar 21, 2009 9:21:41 GMT -5 mshm99 said:

rb, is the twist fast enough to stabilize that heavy a bullet? I tried some big cast 45-70 stuff a few years ago and got key holeing.

mshm

I think so I get fine results with the Speer 405 flat nose. I don't know if this bullet is much much longer.

[fowlplay]

Mar 20, 2009 19:56:47 GMT -5 wilmsmeyer said:

Anyone who shoots 2 Oz turkey load, Hi-vel goose loads, shot gun slugs from 870's.....No load have I shot in my ML10 has kicked as violent as these do.

If you do it, doctor up your gun with good recoil pads....pads. It will rock you but not so much that you see stars.
If you stay with the Savage butt plate you are asking for major recontructive shoulder procedures.

I agree the pump shotgun shooting the candle sticks will kick you harder than the Savage. IMO I would be more concern about scope failure on the Savage than the recoil.
Steve

[midohhntr]

Kick, did someone say kick? Why go to the range to punish yourself? ;D Someone once said I'm gettin' to old for this s**t. ;D
My Marlin slugmaster taught me how to flinch and it's taken me a time to get out of it. Going to retire that gun or give it to my brother ;D and let him deal with it.

[jims]

To midohhbntr: I put extra weight in my Marlin and that helped a great deal. I sit in a stand so I did not have to carry it all day though.