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Post by klahtax on Dec 4, 2011 20:49:08 GMT -5
Has anyone ever thought about making a muzzleloading barrel where the projectile only is loaded thru the muzzle, but the propellant is loaded into a case like a blank. Just a thought.
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Post by hunter on Dec 4, 2011 21:10:29 GMT -5
I have not heard this mentioned before.
I do not think this would be considered a muzzleloader by the BATF or DNR.
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Post by klahtax on Dec 4, 2011 21:24:13 GMT -5
I have tried to find regulations on what makes a muzzleloader a muzzleloader for Indiana. Nothing says both the powder and projectile needs to be loaded thru the barrel, so I was hoping that someone has gone down this road before and has already found a roadblock. It would be very nice to just keep the projectile in and unload the propellent charge just like a CF.
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Post by rossman40 on Dec 5, 2011 9:33:59 GMT -5
Here in Ohio we ran into this years ago when the "traditionalist" MLers tried to get the Savage banned saying it wasn't a ML because it used modern smokeless powder. The DNR official here at the time made the decision, "if it loads from the front, it is a muzzleloader".
I'm afraid if you went with a breech loading charge system the "traditionalist" or "buckskin boys" would be all over it and even though target rifles in the later half of the 1800s used pretty much the same set-up I do not think the ATF would let it fly as a ML.
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Post by esshup on Dec 6, 2011 12:20:33 GMT -5
Along with what Rossman said, how would you ensure that the projectile is seated on top of the powder? I for sure wouldn't want to be pushing down on the projectile with it on top of both powder AND primer! Especially with the bolt closed to hold the cartridge in place. I value my hands too much to take the chance.
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Post by klahtax on Dec 6, 2011 19:50:44 GMT -5
bullet would be seated to a ledge so the charge would not be in the muzzleloader during loading. It was just a random thought I had and just wanted to test the waters of this forum.
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Post by blackhawk7204 on Dec 7, 2011 7:04:53 GMT -5
I heard of a system like this being developed several years ago but can't remember what happened.
If you have the powder charge and primer in a case together I think it would be considered a cartridge and not a muzzle loader.
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Post by blackhawk7204 on Dec 7, 2011 7:10:14 GMT -5
For a while the breach loaded Sharps percussion rifle was considered a legal muzzle loader simply because it was primed externally. But now the regs say it must be loaded from the muzzle.
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Post by kenny549 on Jan 20, 2012 9:49:53 GMT -5
I would imagine if this system was used on an encore it would be a very simple design and a lot safer while loading with the hammer not being cocked while loading.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2012 10:19:22 GMT -5
IMO it would not be shooting a cartridge, which Is why I would consider it an antique firearm. The definition,IIRC,for a cartridge, is a primer, charge,and projectile all in a SINGLE unit. I like the idea, no way you could double load it, slimmer contoured barrel could be used .... Now MISSISSIPPI lets you hunt with single shot rifles, thats their interpretation of a primitive weapon, So why not...... Another thought, why could you not load the powder from the muzzle on such a gun...  ? Greenhorn |
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Post by edge on Jan 20, 2012 10:41:31 GMT -5
If you find the original article in Muzzleblast magazine on the very first Creedmoor rifle match. IIRC it was shooting at 700, 800 and 1000 yards. I think that it was the world championship between Ireland, Great Britain and the US. The US won by 1 or 3 points and the US team used Remington Rolling Block rifles. I think that the top US shooter loaded his paper patched bullet from the muzzle and the black powder in a cartridge from the breech. The other teams used ML rifles only. I think that one of the Irish shooters shot a bullseye on the wrong target which scored a zero, if it were on the correct target the Irish team would have won  edge. I had the story a bit wrong, here is a version with a bit less detail: dmatney.com/files/1874_Creedmore_Match.pdf |
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Post by kenny549 on Jan 20, 2012 18:45:42 GMT -5
If one was to build a muzzleloader with a cut down case such as a 222 case that theking primer pocket has be reamed for a tight 209 primer to fit in, and then modify the BP for the cut down 222 case what would be the issue if used in an encore. I would think the closed breech sytem would work very well. I may be completely wrong and if Iam please tell me your thoughts on this. Im all ears
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Post by edge on Jan 22, 2012 12:02:15 GMT -5
It probably won't be 100% closed, but mine is like that and works pretty well.
edge.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2012 12:44:00 GMT -5
Here in Ohio we ran into this years ago when the "traditionalist" MLers tried to get the Savage banned saying it wasn't a ML because it used modern smokeless powder. The DNR official here at the time made the decision, "if it loads from the front, it is a muzzleloader". I'm afraid if you went with a breech loading charge system the "traditionalist" or "buckskin boys" would be all over it and even though target rifles in the later half of the 1800s used pretty much the same set-up I do not think the ATF would let it fly as a ML. I bought my Savage ML II back in 2004. In 2005 or 2006, MN banned the use of smokeless muzzleloaders. So I went out and bought a TC black powder muzzleloader. Well the following year MN said," just kidding, you can use smokeless gun during muzzleloader season." |
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Post by willbird on Dec 5, 2012 12:36:42 GMT -5
The Scheuztan shooters did it that way for quite some time...the case could actually be filled clear full of powder, allowing more powder than a case would hold with a bullet in the neck. Eventually I think breech seated paper patch bullets took over the game, but they could still be loaded deep enough into the throat that a case clear full of powder could be chambered behind them.
Bill
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Post by 10ga on Dec 19, 2012 20:40:11 GMT -5
Dittos " " for willbird. They used full form dies and much of the "stuff" that us SML shooters are rediscovering today.
Merry Christmas to all! 10 ga
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Post by 7mmfreak on Dec 22, 2012 9:33:14 GMT -5
This is covered in Ned Roberts', The Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle
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Post by bigm00se on Nov 4, 2014 18:20:26 GMT -5
More.specifically, use a 45/70 barrel, load a prime case, load the powder and projectile down the muzzle. Seems it would work???
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Post by rossman40 on Nov 5, 2014 0:03:17 GMT -5
The very first Bad Bulls used a simular setup. Loading over a primed case kinda gives me the chills.
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Post by distantfoe on Nov 23, 2014 22:35:12 GMT -5
There's a gun smith in Virginia, can't remember the name, that chambers a breech plug to 358 winchester in either 45 or 50 cal barrels. The cartridge holds the charge and the sabot/bullet is loaded thrrough down ghe muzzle. He's been doing this since the 70s.
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Post by bigm00se on Dec 18, 2014 9:27:24 GMT -5
There's a gun smith in Virginia, can't remember the name, that chambers a breech plug to 358 winchester in either 45 or 50 cal barrels. The cartridge holds the charge and the sabot/bullet is loaded thrrough down ghe muzzle. He's been doing this since the 70s. Any idea who this is? |
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Post by distantfoe on Dec 21, 2014 22:08:31 GMT -5
There's a gun smith in Virginia, can't remember the name, that chambers a breech plug to 358 winchester in either 45 or 50 cal barrels. The cartridge holds the charge and the sabot/bullet is loaded thrrough down ghe muzzle. He's been doing this since the 70s. Any idea who this is? i believe his last name is Hudson. |
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