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Post by Rifleman on Mar 2, 2009 5:01:28 GMT -5
Hello everyone, I know it has been awhile since I wrote anything, but here goes with a subject I don't think has been touched upon much. I am sure alot of guys get on here while still in the decision stage on whether to buy a Savage 10 MLII smokeless muzzle loader or not. and as they read along they are likely to see alot of neat and EXPENSIVE advice on what kind of upgrades they can do. These would include high end optics and mounts that will stand up to recoil, custom bedding, custom stocks and triggers, as well as a plethora of other things. But are these things really neccessary? I think not. While it is nice to have a custom barreled 45, glass bedded with a 1000 dollar scope, quite good performance can be had with a plain jane blued 10mlII with the iron sights. It really is a 200 yard rifle in the right hands. As an advocate of long range muzzleloading, I have been down the path of tricking out several Savage 10MLII's and have had much success at getting them to shoot well at 300 yds in 50 caliber. But one can easily get a stock rifle with iron sights shooting well at 100 yds with little work, and with the right load, 200 yds is doable. I am not going to go into all the " How- to's" of this right now, but just wanted to write a little note that might be an encouragement to someone who was considering getting into the Savage game but was concerned whether their pocket book would allow them to be successful. With a stock rifle, properly sighted in, the 100 yd line is a piece of cake with the iron sights and book Savage loads. With a little load tweaking, the marksman adept with iron sights will find 200 yds attainable as well. I killed a doe 2 seasons ago with just such a stock rifle, iron sights, at 202 yds, laser verified. So if you are on a budget and was wondering if the Savage is the "right" rifle for you, I would highly encourage you to go ahead and " pull the trigger". Once the rifle is purchased , a nice surprise is that smokeless shooting is quite a bit cheaper then shooting pyrodex pellets, care and cleaning is easier, and hunting accuracy is quite sufficient. If you have questions about the " how to" that is a simple matter as well. Just read the manual first, then jump on here and post a question for help. There is a plethora of knowledge here that will be sufficient for the beginner as well as the very advanced. Rifleman
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2009 8:42:17 GMT -5
Good post! Kind of brought me back to reality.Thanks Rocky
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Post by fowlplay on Mar 2, 2009 11:23:55 GMT -5
Good shooting Dwight, especially with open sights.
It is good to see a post like this. I was just thinking the other day how a new reader might get the impression that the stock Savage can't shoot. I have set up several of these guns and all of them are 200 yard deer guns. I hope the new readers will realize that although it is nice to have after market barrels, stocks, bedded actions, and high dollar scopes it is not necessary for a 200 yard deer gun. I have a friend that killed nine deer this past season and all he use was 5744 powder, 3.4cc Lee dipper, Swift Scope, and 250g Shockwave with black sabots.
This is a very good post for the new Savage shooter who wants to experience the sport of smokeless muzzloading without all the costly modifications. I would like to have a 45 Pacnor barrel but every-time I fire my gun while hunting the deer dies. It is hard for me to justify the extra cost when this happens all the time. ;D Most of my shooting is under 200 yards. Steve
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Post by dougedwards on Mar 2, 2009 11:33:35 GMT -5
Iron sights......what is that??? ;D
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Post by deadeer on Mar 2, 2009 12:50:36 GMT -5
I have to agree that it is easy to get ahead of ourselves with wanting tiny groups and nothing less. I bet most guys here are deer (game) hunters, and "minute of deer" is all they really want and expect. What attracted me to the Savage initially was the cleanup factor. Then I quickly read into it and the velocity increase and lack of SMOKE seemed very desirable. Not to mention the cost savings of shooting smokeless and endless array of components to experiment with. All of these attributes would not be worth much if it weren't for eveyone's help from this board. To any and all newcomers, there may be a lot of info at first, but keep reading and follow the basics and you will be pleasantly surprised with the outcome. You can get by very well with moderately priced components and common sense.
deadeer
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Post by tar12 on Mar 2, 2009 14:13:36 GMT -5
Dwight was kind enough to loan me a gun like the one in the pic. when mine was down.I will have to admit, it was exciting going back to the "basics". The gun felt "naked" with out a scope on it.It sure was satisfying watching the BO put the smack down on them. ;D I noticed no difference in dying times! ;D
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Post by Buckrub on Mar 2, 2009 14:21:28 GMT -5
Rifleman, excellent and appreciated! I got this gun SOLELY to avoid cleaning a muzzleloader. Little did I know how far it'd shoot, or how well!!! On my recommendation, a friend bought the basic model and loves it. We just simply hunt with them, and shoot deer with them at ranges that makes the rest of the camp jealous. In fact, I am really, seriously, going to clean my gun here in the next few weeks from last season, I promise! I love gadgets. I love to read about all this sabot-less shooting and new barrels and all. But it ain't for me. Betsy is too good of a friend now for me to mess with anything other than buying her a new dress someday. What I have works wonders........... And yours can too. Like Rifleman says, you do NOT have to spend more than the basic rifle costs (which are enough!!) to be happy....well, other than bullets and powder, as with any gun.
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Post by northny on Mar 2, 2009 15:35:27 GMT -5
Another vote for having fun with stock ML IIs. I was not impressed with the smokepoles my friends had, and did not want to tackle the black powder cleaning chores. The STOCK ml II shoots very well and once you figure out a few tricks (all of which I learned in the tips sections and on this forrum) it will shoot very well. Cheaper than BP to shoot. I now have three stock ML IIs (two sons and myself). Still having fun with them. Any of them will outshoot my buddies BP rifles.
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Post by jeff on Mar 2, 2009 17:38:32 GMT -5
I have also had both stock and high end ML's, however I have taken more than a dozen B&C animals, with a STOCK ML2 and they never new the difference. Jeff~
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Post by minst7877 on Mar 3, 2009 0:04:24 GMT -5
Iron sights......what is that??? ;D Its those bumps on top of the barrel that you can barely see due to declining eyesight. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by craigf on Mar 3, 2009 0:28:33 GMT -5
Dwight, you have to remember that iron sights are easy for a master marksman like yourself! I agree with you that with irons the savage is good out to 200 yards. I also have been taught by you that I do not know how to shoot with irons well enough and I am working on that. Scopes do make it easier, but they allow the shooter to skip learning so shoot with irons. Personally, I think that having the irons sighted in and still on the gun, or with the hunter, is the best backup for scope failure in the field. Tar12 proved that one!
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Post by Rifleman on Mar 3, 2009 5:43:08 GMT -5
Craig quite frankly I think with a change to a decent set of irons such as a post/aperture combo that the rifle could be used out to 300 yds in the proper light conditions.
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Mar 3, 2009 5:52:00 GMT -5
Good thoughts here. You sure can get lucky right out of the box. Heck, even if you do not want to get the gun bedded, you can improve a bad hook-up with some strategic shimming.
Things that vary out of the box:
1) Action/barrel/stock connection. 2) Bore condition. Rough or not so rough 3) Breech plug primer pocket size. The factory plug that came with Ozarks (Not the press fit bushing plug that is IN the gun now) rifle will stick primers everytime.
These can all be addressed by a "poor man" using some advice from people here and tools/supplies found at home and maybe a little JB.
One thing that is hard to address is the rear action screw and the need to remove or loosen it to remove the bolt. A few things you can do here without spending a dime on third pillars.
1. Make you own EZ tool with some guidance from the tips section 2. MORE CONTROVERCIALLY.....I filed off the tip of this screw so that it does not contact the bolt guide. The bolt "free rides" and you can not "rack" it backwards without it coming out. This is how my original gun is set up. I am so used to it that it's second nature to NOT drop my bolt. As I said...controvercial!
In the end, these guns are great from the start. If your plans are to shoot deer inside 200 yds, it comes ready. A little tweak here and there and some individual load development to find a good sabot fit and bingo...you will be ready.
However...do not skimp on bases, rings and scopes. Your gun may not look fancy out of the box but it will have the power to sort through shoddy optics and hookups rather fast.
Another thing is keeping an eye out for used guns...from people you trust that haven't bulged a barrel or neglected their gun. If buying used you can save about 100 bucks. Bought mine for $300 5 years ago. A buddy got one like mine last year for 275 bucks. Right place right time.
Even if you STILL have an issue finding acceptable hunting accuracy, Savage will inspect and work with you, usually free of charge and address any problems
Great gun.
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Post by craigf on Mar 3, 2009 10:54:23 GMT -5
Craig quite frankly I think with a change to a decent set of irons such as a post/aperture combo that the rifle could be used out to 300 yds in the proper light conditions. I agree, I have wondered how hard and how much it would be to convert to that type of set up.
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Post by shoot2reload on Mar 3, 2009 11:33:38 GMT -5
Anybody using a see-through mount?
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Post by olegburn on Mar 3, 2009 12:43:28 GMT -5
Anybody using a see-through mount? No one that I've seen on this board. Most see-thru's are of not that great quality.IMO They also raise the scope too high above the line of sight. Anybody will pitch in on this? I'd like to hear...
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 3, 2009 17:58:17 GMT -5
Very, very good young eyes shooting. And the scope will never break at the wrong time. I envy you.
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