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Post by ozark on Feb 23, 2009 21:45:09 GMT -5
Many times we read of two shots dead on and then a flyer. I got to thinking (always difficult for me).....Why not two shot groups only with the ML? Has anyone ever had to take a third shot in a hunting situation? Usually it is one shot kills and occasionally there is a need or use for a second shot or a second kill. IMO if the rifle will print two close then there is no need to worry about how it does with the 3rd, 4th or 5th. I am aware of the fun of seeing that cloverleaf group but as far as I would be concerned the rifle that printed two together is a keeper. Yes, I am looking for your logic here. Ozark
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Post by smokeeter on Feb 23, 2009 21:56:38 GMT -5
Usually it is one shot kills here. I couldn't agree more, my one shot groups are fantastic, If I do my part |
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Post by rexxer on Feb 23, 2009 22:04:00 GMT -5
In all honesty was the third one out or the first one !
Two shots might be luck! Three shots might be skill! Five shots give you confidence! Ten shots and your probably on the Olympic team!
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Post by encoreguy on Feb 23, 2009 22:31:18 GMT -5
Really we should just look at the first 2 shots for groups. When evaluating different loads though it might be harder to make evaluations with only 2 shot groups. Two shots does reduce the barrel heating affect on sabots. Three and 5 shot groups have just been ingrained in everyones head over the years. In center fire I prefer (3) 5 shot groups to test loads, but that is a whole different ball game.
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Post by DBinNY on Feb 23, 2009 23:07:50 GMT -5
Ozark, I once made a stand against a herd of woodchucks where I had to shoot 3 in rapid succession (you asked!). Those young ones can be pretty trusting. This, however, was an isolated incident. That was with 300gr XTPs and I got all of them.
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Post by tar12 on Feb 23, 2009 23:22:21 GMT -5
If I rememeber correctly, Savage is sending out 2 shot groups with new guns.
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Post by rbinar on Feb 23, 2009 23:34:14 GMT -5
8-)Two shots groups are fine by me. If you adopt smaller group samples then over lap targets. By that I mean keep the aim point and vertical lines on the target the same each session. Then you can see the relative impact point of all the bullets. Then rather than shooting more bullets you just have more targets.
If range sessions indicate impacts the same on the target then 2 shots are enough. If impact point(s) are changing then there is a problem and it must be fixed.
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Post by northny on Feb 24, 2009 6:08:53 GMT -5
Depends on what you are trying to achieve. For target work or load developement,you want the best group (5 shot or more) you can get.
For big game hunting, you can get by with a good one shot (first shot) group. My favorite CF deer rifle is a featherweight that will consistently shoot a 3 shot "group" of three inches. However it will put the first shot from a cold barrel to the same point day in day out, year to year. Second shot an inch left and 2 low, third shot just below second. I shoot it every year, but have not needed to adjust the sights in 5 years. (Working off 5 boxes of of its favorite load). I guess the stock after 15 years finally stop thinkiing it was still a tree.
I could probably fix the problem (free float the barrel,bed it) but I have come to accept her just the way she it. Just the way I do it, not saying it is the right way.
All my others weapons get tweaked to shoot consistently with a five shot group, which is a better test of me and the rifle than three shots. Can't say that is the right way either, just what I do.
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Post by youp50 on Feb 24, 2009 6:19:44 GMT -5
"it will put the first shot from a cold barrel to the same point day in day out" +1
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Post by herman on Feb 24, 2009 6:36:04 GMT -5
I like the one shot groups a lot better.  2 is ok and three sometimes happens to come out good  But 5 or more it takes a couple life times and lots of luck for them to come together.   |
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Post by edge on Feb 24, 2009 6:44:43 GMT -5
I have often advocated either a separate target for your first cold barrel shot, or at least noting it for future reference. Once you compile your first shots you need to see if they are also your full group center, they often are not.
If you wanted to be truly accurate, you would load your rifle at the end of your range session and keep it loaded until your next range session. Then fire that shot since the powder and sabot have sat for a fair amount of time you will be able to note any loss in velocity, tendency to misfire, or any drastic changes in POI!
Personally, if your first shot is out of the group I would align your crosshairs to the first shot and note the group center for followup shots.
edge.
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Post by dans on Feb 24, 2009 6:58:20 GMT -5
My grandfather once showed me a 50 shot group he fired preparing for squirrel season. A ten shot group is the true test of a load, rifle and shooter. Keep a separate target ala edge and shoot that clean cold barrel on it each time you go to the range until the required number of holes have appeared.
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Post by ozark on Feb 24, 2009 8:05:23 GMT -5
Some good thinking in the replies. I was being more ML specific with my intent but I see that it applies to CF also. It appears that most are aware that the first shot is most important in a hunting situation. I like the idea of leaving that rifle loaded so that the first shot represents a rifle that has remined loaded for a longer period. I think edge is one who mentions that. Others alluded to it also. It is obvious that if a rifle doesn't spread the group with extra shots then it must be accurate. With me shooting I will add to the group size with human errors, the load may add some along with the inherent inaccuracy of the rifle and even the elements. When you add all the errors to a group It can't be said what caused shot no.  ?? to be out of pocket. I really buy that seperate target containing a group of the first shot. For most of us any of the shots would mean dead deer. Thanks for the replies. I enjoy hearing the imput of group replies. Makes a nice tight foundation to think on. |
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Post by Harley on Feb 24, 2009 8:19:01 GMT -5
Everyone had good viewpoints, I think, but RB's suggestion seems the simplest and most workable if you go to 2-shot groups as your standard. Of course, you can't do any scope adjustments between groups, though.
Harley
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Post by fowlplay on Feb 24, 2009 8:28:27 GMT -5
It is true that the first shot out of a cold barrel is the one that is going to count out in the field. When I'm load developing I always shoot 5 shot groups. The reason is because I do not want a false impression of a load because of one lucky shot. With five shot groups I know I was not lucky that many times.  It gives me a better visual and confidence in the load. (or not) Steve |
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Post by whyohe on Feb 24, 2009 8:48:06 GMT -5
two words, consisancy and confidence. these words apply to the shooter and the gun. the first one counts, but being able to repeat it means its more than luck!
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Post by Buckrub on Feb 24, 2009 9:30:34 GMT -5
I guess I would ask "why TWO"? You didn't advocate one shot groups, you asked "why not two shot groups?".......
The answer is that the shooter is the variable. We move, breathe, twitch, and make mistakes in free-holding a weapon about to go off. We can't do it the same way twice, much less 3 times. But we can get close.
If you advocate shooting TWO times instead of ONE time, then you are admitting that you want to prove to yourself that the first shot was correct.
In actuality, what I really want to do when shooting targets is ensure that the rifle is not the fault of any missed shot. I want the range to be the crucible in which I test and try the scope settings to make sure they are set exactly where I'm aiming. The range is for the scope way more than the rifle. If I could somehow set my rifle into a solid block where it could not move and shoot it repeatedly, changing only the scope settings, I'd fire it enough times to ensure my weak brain that it was both accurate and consistent.
Then when I go afield and shoot at game, a miss is always KNOWN to be my fault, and not the scope settings. I don't even consider the rifle to be at fault, it should shoot consistently always. Again, it's only the scope that I trust so little and need so many shots to prove its at the proper settings.
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Post by skin290 on Feb 24, 2009 9:51:09 GMT -5
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Post by chuck41 on Feb 24, 2009 10:54:33 GMT -5
Great article. I thought his comment about the minimum number of shots to assure the accuracy of a load to be seven was interesting. For us non-sabotting ML10 dudes that is about a 20 minute exercise at the range. ;D For those shooting sabots with fifteen minute waits . . . . . . . . . . . . it becomes closer to two hours!!  |
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Post by dougedwards on Feb 24, 2009 11:00:16 GMT -5
what if the first shot is usually off but the following two shots are within a nice group. What might that tell you?
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Post by rangeball on Feb 24, 2009 11:03:15 GMT -5
what if the first shot is usually off but the following two shots are within a nice group. What might that tell you? Quit cleaning your gun |
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Post by edge on Feb 24, 2009 11:14:40 GMT -5
Mark Twain: "Lies, damned lies, and statistics" ;D
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Post by smitty on Feb 24, 2009 11:56:01 GMT -5
Been shooting my Savage ML's for 3 years and have burned alot of powder trying to get a collection of 3-5 shot bragging groups. No regrets as that's one of the main reasons I truly enjoy the Savage ML. Looking back I've had several very accurate loads but simply over looked them because I was chasing a 3-5 shot group. Awhile back I used the advise found on this board..... took my favorite load and a single target and used it for my first shot of each range visit . Only took a couple of range visits to learn this was my hunting load ; )
smitty
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Post by dougedwards on Feb 24, 2009 12:13:50 GMT -5
what if the first shot is usually off but the following two shots are within a nice group. What might that tell you? Quit cleaning your gun I don't clean my gun all during hunting season just because of that phenomenon. |
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Post by dougedwards on Feb 24, 2009 12:24:20 GMT -5
Even when shooting sabotless.......doesn't the heating up of the barrel change harmonics at all? I would think that it would. Shooting seven shots of hot loads in 20 minutes especially in the summertime should heat a barrel up pretty good.....sabot or no sabot. Do you sabotless guys really get good accuracy doing this?
Doug
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Post by Harley on Feb 24, 2009 13:06:47 GMT -5
Doug, I treat my sabotless ML shooting the same way I do CF shooting: After each shot I wait until the external barrel temperature feels "right" to my hand. Unless it's in the heat of summer I can confidently shoot three times before cooling for an extended period.
Harley
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?? to be out of pocket. I really buy that seperate target containing a group of the first shot. For most of us any of the shots would mean dead deer. 
It gives me a better visual and confidence in the load. (or not)
