|
|
Post by smokeeter on Jan 1, 2011 14:13:18 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by tar12 on Jan 1, 2011 14:35:57 GMT -5
Another one who will not man up to his mistake.
|
|
|
|
Post by rossman40 on Jan 1, 2011 14:49:01 GMT -5
The man is lucky. It could have been a barrel obstruction. The point of rupture is the area of max pressure, right at the rear sight. What is interesting in the first photo is that copper fouling in the bore? Of course this blows TBs theory of the breechplug out of the water. What was the load details? of course it is what he says was the load in the rifle.
|
|
|
|
Post by shoot2reload on Jan 1, 2011 15:08:16 GMT -5
Would it be bad etiquette to post the link to the original forum? I'm sure many of us would like to get more info on this one!
|
|
|
|
Post by artjr338wm on Jan 1, 2011 15:19:36 GMT -5
I also instantly noticed the copper fouling, as I looked at the pics prior to reading any ones posts. To my knowledge if using sabots, it should be about 1% shy of impossible to have ANY repeat ANY copper fouling in any MLs bore. Combined from shooting TMZs and Spit Fires out of my 10ML-II, all with sabot, I have shot around 300-325<or> and I use Wipe-Out to clean my 10MLs bore and in dozens of cleanings I have never once detected the tell tail blue residue of copper on any of my patches. I do not know anything about what caused this C-failure, but what seems to be the presence of a significant amount of copper fouling in the bore would have to at the least make any knowledgeable observer strongly suspect the owner was shooting this 10ML sabot less.
Until all the details of this incident come out, I feel all should with hold coming to any conclusions as to its cause. At this point all we know is the rifle blew up, and I find it disturbing that the owner himself did not post any details concerning the load being shot at the time or any thing else pertaining to the failure.
This absence of information tends to cause me to think the injured party involved is reluctant to post any info as it might prove ill to any future legal actions he might be be contemplating.
|
|
|
|
Post by artjr338wm on Jan 1, 2011 15:30:21 GMT -5
I would like to add and all feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but unless there is something obstruction the bore tightly and or completely enough so as block the expanding gasses as they push the bullet/sabot combo down and out of the barrel, is not a blow up like this almost impossible?
In other words can a properly loaded 10ML-II using a saboted bullet blow up like this, even if there is some sort of a weakness in the barrel itself?
This barrel is a exact identical reproduction of a barrel blow up I personally witnessed when a friend of mine fired his Remington 1100 after it became blocked by a failed reload (no powder only primer) of his own making. I might be comparing apples to oranges, but the end result was the same as this incident and they are IMHO twins of each other in terms of barrel damage.
|
|
oked
8 Pointer
Posts: 207
|
Post by oked on Jan 1, 2011 15:57:01 GMT -5
Also it appears from the differance in coloration that the bullet was approx 1.5 inches in front of the sight like maybe the bullet was not seated completely or had moved of the powder charge. Also possibility of double loading?
|
|
|
|
Post by cuda on Jan 1, 2011 19:14:09 GMT -5
Was he using a copper full bore bullit? Sabots do not leave copper residue in the bore like that. I think there is more to this that is not being revealed. It is just to easy to blame the gun for something they did not saying they did.
|
|
|
|
Post by rick59 on Jan 1, 2011 22:32:28 GMT -5
Was he using a copper full bore bullit? Sabots do not leave copper residue in the bore like that. I think there is more to this that is not being revealed. It is just to easy to blame the gun for something they did not saying they did. Looks that way to me. |
|
|
|
Post by swampmen on Jan 1, 2011 22:36:11 GMT -5
How do any of us know what happend . The only way is maybe now that all the heads are back togather and powder out of his noise we will get the story .I for one hope he tells his right not what people want to hear
|
|
|
|
Post by edge on Jan 1, 2011 22:53:32 GMT -5
Actually, when a sabot fails you often have bullet to bore contact so visible copper could result too!
I remember a long time ago someone on the old board showed a recovered bullet, I think that it was a Gold Dot, that had rifling clearly engraved on one side of the bullet where the sabot had failed!
Where the barrel failure originated is impossible to tell from this picture but it can't go unnoticed that in most failures the front sight screw is the area of greatest disruption.
edge.
|
|
|
|
Post by tasaman on Jan 2, 2011 11:07:34 GMT -5
Isn't there a copper plated Powerbelt? Or a perhaps one of the new Hornady sabotless.
|
|
|
|
Post by GMB54-120 on Jan 2, 2011 11:51:13 GMT -5
Isn't there a copper plated Powerbelt? Or a perhaps one of the new Hornady sabotless. That is the first thing i thought after seeing the pics. The point of the most expansion/failure appears pretty far ahead of the breach plug but im no expert. Yes they do offer copper clad PBs and 2 of the heavy ones might be enough to cause a failure if using max book load data. The soft lead PB will "swell" in the bore and could create a hell of an obstruction. |
|
|
|
Post by olegburn on Jan 2, 2011 12:13:01 GMT -5
What about rear sight screw hole?
Does it weaken barrel any?
With the bore as large as .50 cal it makes for very little metal left in that area.
|
|
|
|
Post by rossman40 on Jan 2, 2011 22:59:42 GMT -5
The rear sight screw would be a weak point but there is not one on the bottom.
My biggest fear is if you bulged a barrel and then fired again the bullet can obturate in the bulge. Then as the bullet tries to be squeezed back in the normal area of the barrel you would see a pressure spike like you ain't seen before. Then every shot could bulge the barrel more. Then again what if the bulge was big enough would that allow the bullet to get somewhat side ways.
I have to agree with Art. Again we can speculate on what happened but it is just speculation. Only one person has the facts, or at least what he can remember of them and he has to choose to tell them.
I wonder if TB will jump on this to add to his anti-Savage/anti-smokeless campaign.
|
|
|
|
Post by cuda on Jan 4, 2011 22:48:12 GMT -5
Maybe it was a Cabelas BP instead of a smokeless? Smokeeter any updates on what happened?
|
|
|
|
Post by GMB54-120 on Jan 5, 2011 9:16:56 GMT -5
Did the Cabela's MLII-BP have 1 or 2 ramrod guides? I thought it had two.
|
|
|
|
Post by rossman40 on Jan 5, 2011 11:54:37 GMT -5
It has one that is like twice as long as the one on the 10ML-II.
|
|
|
|
Post by dannoboone on Jan 5, 2011 12:51:49 GMT -5
He's apparently married and has a toddler. Thank God for all three
that he wasn't too seriously hurt.
Smokeeter mentions that the owner was firing it before putting
it away for the season. So he had no doubt been hunting with
it, and who knows how many times out. Could there have been
an obstruction in it that he was not aware of? If so, will anyone
ever know for sure?
I had a situation a year ago in which snow had been shoved
into the end of the barrel about one inch (deep snow). It wasn't
packed in and was easily cleared. I was certainly glad I checked
it in any event. It probably would have left the barrel before
much excessive pressure was built up, but I wouldn't care to
experiment!
|
|
|
|
Post by wilmsmeyer on Jan 5, 2011 18:06:05 GMT -5
One day while my loaded gun sat on the bags, a large bumble bee landed on my barrel and promptly entered it. I waited for it to come out and it didn't. I tried to "suck" it out by using a patch on my jag....inserted 1/2 way down and pulling it out fast. Nothing. I eventually seated the bee onto my load as observed by the bug guts on my patch. Had to disassemble/unload.
Not sure what would have happened if I fired it out. It appeared to be a bore sized bumble bee
Funny things do happen....wear a barrel condom
|
|
|
|
Post by paulslund on Jan 6, 2011 9:51:21 GMT -5
Wilms...that's the weirdest story I've ever heard...
;D
Could you have just fired the gun after "seating" the bee?
Paul.
|
|
|
|
Post by falcon on Jan 8, 2011 19:33:07 GMT -5
"Another one who will not man up to his mistake."
Bingo!!!!
For over 45 years i have done EOD/UXO work. Years ago i did a lot of research on pipe bomb IEDs. Built pipe bombs out of galvanized water pipe, black iron pipe and high strength seamless tubing, stainless and otherwise. Used black powder,
high explosives and nearly every type of smokeless powder there was at the time.
Look at the portion of the bore that is burned dark blue. That is where the powder charge sat. It is the same length as the powder charge. No recommened powder charge for the Savage rifle is over two inches long.
|
|
|
|
Post by edge on Jan 10, 2011 19:14:55 GMT -5
Look at the metal color!
You could also interpret the dark gray as where the gas exited at a lower pressure due to the large defect in the barrel( resulting in incomplete combustion)!
For those that always subscribe to the double load theory, why is there never anything in the bore?
If only one load goes off then a burst barrel seems unlikely, but if both loads go off then would not one bullet be going forward and the second almost remain stationary due to pressure in front and in back. We never see evidence of plastic from the sabot burned or melted anywhere.
|
|
|
|
Post by tar12 on Jan 10, 2011 19:58:05 GMT -5
Edge you do indeed have a very valid point.
|
|
|
|
Post by Richard on Jan 10, 2011 21:18:52 GMT -5
I'll give another story............True! A good friend of mine and one of the real pioneers in benchrest. This man's name was Geza Nagy. He was a monthly writer for Precision Shooter and did a lot of brass testing when the original Russian 220 (from which the 6mm PPC was made) brass was in short supply. Lapua and Norma were in the market to come up with brass to replace the Russian cases. Geza was instrumental in doing a lot of testing for PS magazine.
Anyway, one day he was shooting at our Central Jersey range in the rain, when a drop of water, from the overhang, had apparently gotten into the muzzle of his PPC rifle. He fired a bullet that went way out of his "bughole" group. Knowing something was wrong, he ceased shooting that rifle. Upon getting home and examining the rifle, he noticed a concave area just inside of the crown. It could actually be seen with the naked eye. Geza cut the end of the barrel off and cross sectioned it and you could see the "dent!" Apparently the bullet rode over the water and hydraulic pressure caused the internal dent. While this was probably a freak thing, it can and did happen. Just another possibility?
Richard
|
|
|
|
Post by smokepoler on Mar 6, 2011 8:32:11 GMT -5
I was at the range one day shooting with a buddy and his Remington ML. TWICE, he double charged it. He was new to muzzleloading and I caught him both times after he said "something ain't right here". Both times he got distracted after the initial loading. It CAN happen. That's my guess on this blowup.
|
|
|
|
Post by jaycee on May 16, 2011 15:20:49 GMT -5
to me , the barrel looks wet! possibly water down the barell causing some obstruction ?
if thats the case , a piece of duct tape over the muzzle would have prevented this from happenig, but we will nver know the " whole " story unless the owner fess's up .
regardless, i still like my "savage "
|
|
|
|
Post by cfvickers on Jul 16, 2011 1:17:23 GMT -5
May have just not seated the bullet all the way down to the powder charge. I know you can have blow outs or bulges from this. Just a thought. I don't have the experience to make a good case. But that is VERY easy to miss when loading one.
|
|
|
|
Post by GMB54-120 on Jul 16, 2011 10:24:25 GMT -5
As with any ML, people MUST pay attention and if you get distracted double check EVERYTHING. If anything appears wrong it is better to remove the load. I pushed out loads just because i was 3/4" off my witness mark....just in case because i was using T7 with the dreaded crud ring problems.
Im not a huge Savage fan (for hunting) but i will say i think it is one of the strongest/safest you can buy and they are extremely hard to blowup like that unless you are a novice or have been distracted. Ive recommended them to people that are comfortable and experienced with CF reloading.
I don't recommend them to a novice unless they start out using BH209....at least not until they are very confident/experienced with its loading/safety procedures. Not everyone is upto the task of using a SML safely IMO. Some shouldn't even be using sub guns either.
There is nothing wrong with realizing your limitations and being happy with what you are good at. I still get the pucker factor a little since i came from years of sub use but its fading fast thanks to this board's members....the pressure traces have also been a HUGE help.
IIRC ISHOT1KILL shot a double charge (from his shoulder) of 5744? at a demonstration in the early days with no damage to the barrel or himself.
I have no idea how this one blew but im happy the person is still alive and i hope everyone can keep an objective opinion.
|
|
|
|
Post by savage on Sept 19, 2011 9:25:45 GMT -5
i have heard of spiders making a web in barrels ,guys not knowing and blazing away. maybe he set the gun aside for a bit before cleaning for the season. looks like a double/sabotless imo though.
|
|
