Pac-Nor and sabot less

[12ptdroptine]

I am looking at going with a PAC-NOR sabot less barrel in the future..Do you have to put a wad of some sort under the bullet? And how do you keep things going down the barrel straight? Without canting. How much better accuracy can be achieved? What bullets are available? in .45 What is the difference in the powder's used? and last but not least..What will it cost me to convert over..Thanks Drop

[rexxer]

Drop- I didn't think you would come over to the dark side!

[sw]

Feb 22, 2009 20:30:16 GMT -5 12ptdroptine said:

I am looking at going with a PAC-NOR sabot less barrel in the future..Do you have to put a wad of some sort under the bullet? And how do you keep things going down the barrel straight? Without canting. How much better accuracy can be achieved? What bullets are available? in .45 What is the difference in the powder's used? and last but not least..What will it cost me to convert over..Thanks Drop

Good. Yes, it helps. They just end up straight. Generally, accuracy is more consistent and easily obtained. I have no problem shooting <1/2 MOA @ 100 yds and < 1 MOA @ 300 yds. Some saboted loads can equal this; however, not as consistently IMO, or at least for me. Virtually any 450-452 bullet can be resized to 448 and then slightly knurled for use in a std PacNor 45. Powders - look at the loading charts at the top of the board. Someone else who recently converted can answer the $ question better than I can. Appx $350 I think.
Remember, the 45 will also allow you to shoot 40 cal bullets saboted at very high speeds and very accurately. I haven't decided if I will continue to shoot my 45s with saboted bullets or go sabotless. One of the 45's great attributes is the ability to shoot the 195 barnes at 2700+'/sec extremely accurately. My 2 favorite bullets are the 200SST and 195 Barnes: the 45 as well as the 40 allow me to shoot these very accurately. If the 40 is an option to you, you can shoot these bullets at 2900+'/sec without resizing and have outstanding accuracy. So far, it hasn't gotten better than this.

[rexxer]

Drop-I think my.45 SS x-tra lapped barrel was around $430,that included shipping. To start bullet in straight some guys are using a spin jag starter. Harley has a few new ideas that look promising.

To say sabotless is going to be more accurate! I'm not touching that one. I have seen great groups shot sabotless and with sabots with the pacnor barrels. If looking to start shooting sabotless I would look at some of Harley's recipes along with the other pacnor gurus.

Bullets- I think you will see a lot more different bullets sabotless this year because of all the new .45 shooters. But then again most people are easily influence to shoot just one bullet. Parkers would have to be toward the top of the food chain for long range accuracy.

One option you have with the .45 is shooting 200 grain bullet too. These would be alot more user friendly in the recoil dept plus still have a highly accurate deer hunting load.

Many guys are getting good accuracy out of their fifty so you have to make your own call. Good luck Drop!!!

[rbinar]

Feb 22, 2009 20:30:16 GMT -5 12ptdroptine said:

I am looking at going with a PAC-NOR sabot less barrel in the future..Do you have to put a wad of some sort under the bullet? And how do you keep things going down the barrel straight? Without canting. How much better accuracy can be achieved? What bullets are available? in .45 What is the difference in the powder's used? and last but not least..What will it cost me to convert over..Thanks Drop

1 Yes a wad normally is used and I've had better results with. However I heard of and seen the instance where no wad was working very well.

2 If you have a good barrel and the bullet is a good fit it won't go in any way but straight.

3 Accuracy depends on how well the system is integrated. It can be as good as any rifle shooting similar bullets.

4 Sabot-less bullets include any .451 bullet now available. The 275 grain Parker is popular because it has a good combination of positive attributes. However I've had results with sized SSTs, TMZs, TEZs and others weighing 250 to 300 grains.

5 Loads may use some of the same powders as in 50 caliber (like H4198 and H322) but not all (like N110 and Xmr-5744). Because the smaller caliber makes pressure differently loads do not look similar by weight. I.E. up to 70 grains of H4198 may be used in 50 caliber to shoot a 300 grain bullet. That much powder in 45 caliber is FAR beyond the safety level, loads are limited to 54 grains or less.

6 This depends on who does it. If you can change the barrel that's all it cost if not the barrel and installation are required. From what I've heard barrels are going for $350+ with chambers cut ready to install.

[12ptdroptine]

Ok so How do you "resize" the bullet? And what do you do about a ramrod tagging along ? Drop

[rbinar]

Feb 23, 2009 19:57:15 GMT -5 12ptdroptine said:

Ok so How do you "resize" the bullet? And what do you do about a ramrod tagging along ? Drop

One reason the Parker bullet is popular is it shoots in a lot of barrels with little or no sizing.

If you have a favorite bullet it can be sized by any number of sizing dies available from C&H Lyman and other sources. The dies are made to operate in a reloading press but will work in a vise as well.

The most popular way is to go slightly small and knurl for exact fit.

[12ptdroptine]

I have a RCBS set up that I bought a few years back..That I thought I might need someday.....

[Richard]

Drop.........You get yourself a bullet resizing die from Lee. I have a .448 die on order now. (seems like that is the most popular size). You size down a .451/.451" bullet to .448, then by knurling (as with a file), you bring up or stipple the brass so the bullet (measured across this stippling) measures around .450 -.451". Whereas before sizing the entire surface of the bullet measured .451, now only those little bits on the surface measure that. This allows the bullet to be able to be "stuffed" down the barrel. (does this make sense?) I have not done this yet since my barrel is in "sick-bay" for a month As far as a ram-rod tagging along? Carry a fold up or install an aluminum tube in the forend of the stock to support a regular ramrod.
Richard

[chuck41]

I use a .40 so bullet resizing in not required for me, only knurling as discussed above. Never had a problem with bullets not going in straight. Use either the lube impregnated wonder wads or the "veggie" wads (0.060") that looks like gasket material. Both work just fine. I bought the standard stainless barrel without the extra hand lapping or other options and my cost was within pennies of $350. The .45 is a bit more flexible for some as you can use resized .45 cal bullets sabotless or .400 or even .357 bullets with readily available sabots, but it does require the resizing for sabotless shooting.

So far accuracy with 200gr XTP .400 bullets at 100yd averages about 1/2" groups. That doesn't seem to vary much between three different powders both single and duplex loads.

Was quite an improvement from my much less consistent 1 1/4" to 2 1/2" groups from the 50 with sabots. However, to be fair I also bedded my rifle when I put on the new Pac-Nor. That likely helped some as well.