ultimate long range load

[cumminscowboy]

the last 2 years I have had 2 large bucks only leave me with a 250 to 270 yard shot, I missed both, I am wondering what the ultimate long range combo out of a savage would be for something like this, I am thinking of a 250 shockwave pushed around 2600fps, any other ideas, has anyone got the 200 grain SST to shoot out of a .50 savage?? will the shockwaves hold up at speeds this fast?? any other ideas

[tar12]

I do not believe that the 200 SST has proven to be very accurate out of the .50.If I am wrong the correction will soon follow. ;DAt those distances you should have no problem with the 250 grn projectiles at speed.It is the close shots at that speed where you might get into trouble on bone hits.Have you considered any of the 300 grn offerings?

[jims]

As tar12 said the .40/50 combo seems lacking. It may be as RBinAR and others have said, use no smaller than .45s in the .50 caliber barrel and .40s in .45 caliber barrels with factory sabots. They have found anything beyond that accuracy seems to suffer.
Tar12 I know has made some long distance shots with his Barnes Originals as have others. That may be the way to go. When you hit it at those distances you still want to anchor it quickly.

[sw]

300g SST/58-60g VV-120 and other loads seem to be highly adequate to 300yds. I found the 250 SST to be a little less adequate for 300 yds. The 250TMZ might be a good 300 yd candidate. You might now understand why so many of us have gone to the 45 and 40 cal barrels. That said, the 50 cal can very adequately shoot accurately to 300 yds. To be able to make such shots, considerable homework needs to be accomplished. Good luck.

[cumminscowboy]

personally I wanna stay away from 300 grn loads, here is why, I think they would likely work best at 300 yards shooting at range conditions, however hunting is a different story and that is why I want the flattest shooting combo I can find. shots are not always level, also a quick shot must be gotten off, this requires putting the site on the animal and shooting, the less elevation correction the better.

so it looks like the 250 SST is likely my best choice, what about parker?? do they shoot and perform better on game, barnes TEZ

[smokeeter]

300 grainers are a better long range performer than the 250 series of bullets, bar none.

[Dave W]

The Barnes Orig. is a proven long distance shooter but it is also seems to be the most widely used bullet on this board due to its accuracy and toughness.

Savage Shooters 300yd groups with the 250SST rival any groups I have seen posted with the .50, but he is not your average Joe when it comes to shooting. Homework in various wind conditions will be in order to find out what you and your equipment are capable of.

[grouse]

Feb 21, 2009 23:33:09 GMT -5 cumminscowboy said:

so it looks like the 250 SST is likely my best choice, what about parker?? do they shoot and perform better on game

The 275 Parker BE is a much better choice on game. Find the right sabot for that bullet and it will be just as accurate if not more accurate.

[olegburn]

Feb 21, 2009 21:45:24 GMT -5 cumminscowboy said:

the last 2 years I have had 2 large bucks only leave me with a 250 to 270 yard shot, I missed both, I am wondering what the ultimate long range combo out of a savage would be for something like this, I am thinking of a 250 shockwave pushed around 2600fps, any other ideas, has anyone got the 200 grain SST to shoot out of a .50 savage?? will the shockwaves hold up at speeds this fast?? any other ideas

Cumminscowboy,you ever tried just coming closer?
-then you won't need a Savage!
;D ;D ;D -just messin with ya.... ;D
Savage is capable of what you looking for,no doubt.
Not without some homework,though.
After spending some time actually shooting it at those ranges lot of guys here do kill deer that far.
I got one at 235 if you like to hear me braggin.
Welcome to Board!
olegburn

[Guessed]

This is only my opinion, drawn from 4 decades of shooting. First thing you should do is post some of your 250 yard targets. Then we can judge whether it's load consistency or wind doping that is causing your misses. I mentor a lot of people on shooting skills because I can out shoot them and they want improve their performance. Some of them get pissy when given good advice. But hey, you asked. My advice is to get a bullet with a high B.C. and then get it to group at 250. You're not concerned about flat trajectory, you're concerned about tight groups and wind drift. You can very accuratly accomodate a consistent drop in trajectory but you can only guess about wind drift. Also, most published B.C,'s are "optimistic" as are most velocity claims. You don't need a chronograph, although it is very helpful. What you really need is to know exactly what you're drop is at a given(lasered), not guessed, range. Once you can get a tight vertical dispersion, then you worry about drift. Till you can hit a gallon milk jug more than 2/3's of the time at 250, you should keep practicing on targets instead of game to find your personal max. range.

[wilmsmeyer]

"Ultimate" is in the eye of the beholder. For long range? What range is that? Flatness....how flat? We are talking hunting here so very good practical accuracy is OK. No 1/2 MOA needed...although nice.

Here's my process which will be different then yours:

I assume a 6 inch kill zone and the ability to hold in the center of it and hit it somewhere. That reflects no more then a +/- 3 inch vertical rise or drop. I also assume I have a load developed that shoots reliably no worse then 2 MOA.

Most profiled bullets in the 250 and 300 grain range can be shot fast enough to meet the trajectory requirements out to 200-225 yds if you want to shoot at the top ends.

Now I would look to see which of those loads group 6 inches or better at the end of that range. You have to do it...not just exptrapolate 100 yds results and apply them respectively at longer ranges.

If I had choices in terms of bullets that shot similarly accurate, I'd take the toughest one in the 250 class and toss a coin in the 300 class.

A lot of guys like chasing yesterdays experiences, hoping for a repeat. Next time the big one will be running right at you and skid to a halt 30 yds away quartering on. He will be on to you!You will have 2 seconds to aquire him and aim for center vitals...no time to be picky on angles. Bang.

The scenarios and variables while hunting are so vast that they can't be covered in one or 100 posts. You can break down load development into basic peices and tackle them one at a time. The end product will give you point...shoot....score in all situations out to MPBR which can be kinda far.

Once you are shooting out past this range, a whole different set of variables comes into play. Extreme bullet drop, wind drift, load instability, steady rest and your own physical condition (cold? nervous? stressed? Hungry?) Here's where the real work is involved. This is where reality of hunting is separated from beautifully calm range days in nice weather. The bench and bags are usually gone and you are under the gun to act now.

Results from here on will vary now more based on YOU then your gun and it's capability.

[sw]

Feb 21, 2009 23:33:09 GMT -5 cumminscowboy said:

personally I wanna stay away from 300 grn loads, here is why, I think they would likely work best at 300 yards shooting at range conditions, however hunting is a different story and that is why I want the flattest shooting combo I can find.

so it looks like the 250 SST is likely my best choice quote]

I believe you are under the misconception that the 250g bullets shoot flattest @ long range. Sight-in the 250SST/2600'/sec @ 200yds and do the same with the 300SST/2350'/sec and be prepared for a surprise with your 300 yd results. The people who are responding to your post are experienced in what you are wanting to do; CONSIDER WHAT THEY ARE SUGGESTING. Good luck, you will enjoy the journey.

[ewc]

The one thing I would like to add to the good advice above-

invest in the optics to get you there.

I used a VX-III with a Boone&Crockett reticle to take a deer at 326. At the time I was using a .50 10ml2 shooting 2300 with a 250sst. Bottom post worked out to zero at 300. 200-300 yard shots were easy (with little wind).

I now use M1 dials on my .40. IMO, this is the best system - range and dial.

[Dave W]

Feb 22, 2009 13:37:41 GMT -5 ewc said:

The one thing I would like to add to the good advice above-

invest in the optics to get you there.

I used a VX-III with a Boone&Crockett reticle to take a deer at 326. At the time I was using a .50 10ml2 shooting 2300 with a 250sst. Bottom post worked out to zero at 300. 200-300 yard shots were easy (with little wind).

I now use M1 dials on my .40. IMO, this is the best system - range and dial.

Judd, I know you told me before but what were your group sizes at 300 with the 250SST? Thanks.

[ewc]

As we all do, I shot some stellar groups with that combo at 1, 2, and 300 yards.

However, my groups(from memory) would average 1, sub-2, and 5 inches respectively at those distances.

I was using a 3.5x10 leupold B&C. With me, the 10 power at 300 hurts group size. My gun was plenty capable - my optics were borderline for groups at 300-

Judd

[Dave W]

Feb 22, 2009 15:43:32 GMT -5 ewc said:

As we all do, I shot some stellar groups with that combo at 1, 2, and 300 yards.

However, my groups(from memory) would average 1, sub-2, and 5 inches respectively at those distances.

I was using a 3.5x10 leupold B&C. With me, the 10 power at 300 hurts group size. My gun was plenty capable - my optics were borderline for groups at 300-

Judd

Great shooting especially with the magnification, I knew it was in the 5" range from what you posted on the old board but wanted to be sure, thanks again.

[cumminscowboy]

I ran the numbers with a 300 grn barnes original at 2350 and a 250 sst at 2600, the lighter bullet flies substanitally flatter, from what I have learned if you wanna stick with traditional type loads the 300 grn barnes is likely the best way to go, if you wanna run duplex loads and push the envelope 250 grn bullets are where its at for flat shooting

[cgg]

There is a ton of good info in this thread,Cowboy, that you seem determined to ignore. I did not realize you had years of Savage shooting experience like these men. I thought you had asked for advice.... Good luck.

[Al]

Feb 22, 2009 3:29:17 GMT -5 @Guessed said:

This is only my opinion, drawn from 4 decades of shooting. First thing you should do is post some of your 250 yard targets. Then we can judge whether it's load consistency or wind doping that is causing your misses. I mentor a lot of people on shooting skills because I can out shoot them and they want improve their performance. Some of them get pissy when given good advice. But hey, you asked. My advice is to get a bullet with a high B.C. and then get it to group at 250. You're not concerned about flat trajectory, you're concerned about tight groups and wind drift. You can very accuratly accomodate a consistent drop in trajectory but you can only guess about wind drift. Also, most published B.C,'s are "optimistic" as are most velocity claims. You don't need a chronograph, although it is very helpful. What you really need is to know exactly what you're drop is at a given(lasered), not guessed, range. Once you can get a tight vertical dispersion, then you worry about drift. Till you can hit a gallon milk jug more than 2/3's of the time at 250, you should keep practicing on targets instead of game to find your personal max. range.

couldn't have said the above any better.

There's no magic load that works for everyone in every situation, find what your gun likes and practice the longer ranges, off the bench and then try and duplicate your field conditions.

Water filled milk jugs are great targets, very cheap, and really builds ones confidence watching them explode at longer ranges.

[wilmsmeyer]

Feb 22, 2009 23:06:11 GMT -5 cumminscowboy said:

I ran the numbers with a 300 grn barnes original at 2350 and a 250 sst at 2600, the lighter bullet flies substanitally flatter, from what I have learned if you wanna stick with traditional type loads the 300 grn barnes is likely the best way to go, if you wanna run duplex loads and push the envelope 250 grn bullets are where its at for flat shooting

This is an extremely broad statement which is not accurate.

When you "run" numbers, even published ones, there is no "substantial" difference in trajectories. Actually, if you use published BC's and the speeds you mention, you would find that the B.O. would overtake a 250 SST at just over 300 yds. Under that, we are splitting hairs all the way to the target.

The only way to prove this out is to shoot...not speculate. As you begin with smokeless, you WILL speculate because there are no personal experiences to draw from. Not a big deal.

Additionally, although duplex is a very viable method of loading, it is done so not for the speed gains but as a method of reaching optimum operating pressures, which bring about good things...sometimes even speed.

Single powders of the right type can ALSO be shot at optimum pressure for a given bullet weight. The highest velocities shot with any duplex you've seen here can also be attained and surpassed with single powders.

As you speculate your way towards successful smokeless ML'ing, soak in all the information. Absorb the reasoning and the logic because it's all here at this site. And remember..no matter what loads you shoot, you will never come close to having a flat centerfire in your hands once you pass the 250-300 yd line.

For successful hunting purposes, you will become much more successful by strategically locating your stands so that your opportunities lie well within the "gimmie" range of your weapon and ability with it.....not neccassarily touting a laser beam that still has to be held steady. Over time, you may find that your "gimmie" range will grow. Until then, bust a lot of milk jugs.

[edge]

IMO, if you want a long range load that will also work well at close range you should go with a bullet with a high BC. That will almost always be the 300 grain and not the 250 grain bullet.

Make sure that when using your ballistic calculator that you compare apples to apples.
Look at the muzzle energy and not the velocity to pick a load and the recoil will be close...actually since the heavier bullet will almost certainly be more efficient, the recoil will be lower with the heavier bullet and your on-game energy will be substantially higher at long range.

Let's run some numbers:

250SST @ 2700 fps = 4046 ft/lbs ( BC 0.210 )
300 BO @ 2450 fps = 3998 ft/lbs ( BC 0.275 )

If we choose a 6 inch MPBR:

250SST = 210 yards
300BO = 200 yards

@ 200 yards energy is over a ton for both loads.

At 300 yards:

250SST will be low 11 inches with 1450 ft/lbs
300BO will be low 13 inches with 1800 ft/lbs

As you can see, the trajectory is very close, and 2 inches more drop means almost nothing at 300 yards.
An extra 350 Ft/lbs is nothing to sneeze at.

So why pick one over the other?
IMO

1) It is almost always easier to get lower velocity loads to be accurate;
2) Close range shots the bullet will tend to maintain a straight shotline through the animal with less meat damage and a better chance the bullet will stay in 1 piece;
3) Your vent liners will probably last longer;
4)Recoil will probably be slightly lower;
5) because ;D

Now, a 300 grain bullet probably costs more than a 250 grainer.

In the end, if they shoot the same, go heavier assuming the BC advantage makes it worthwhile.
Only you can decide what level of accuracy is acceptable to your needs.

edge.

[Buckrub]

I can only second what everyone said. I have sold most of my 250g bullets and have a few more I'd give to anyone that wants them.

I do not think I would hesitate to take a 300 yard (open) shot at a deer with the 300g Barnes Original SS, and 60 g of N120. I have proven to myself what they will do to almost that range, and have enough confidence in these guys that have shot a ton of 'em that far, and farther. I don't need anything else.....I've pushed my envelope as far as I care to. I believed as you did at one time, I will admit that. Read every word posted here for a year, then go shoot a BO 300g and then see if those two deer aren't dead deer next time.

[cumminscowboy]

I am no smokeless expert but I do know a bit about ballistics, I am going to try the good ol BO and see what it will do, I guess what I am wondering is if there are any 250 gain bullet options I may be overlooking parker makes a 250 gn jacket hydracon that looks like a BO, has anyone tried these at smokeless speeds.

which is going to be more temp stable, a 300 BO at max speed with single powder

or a duplex load with a 250 SST @2600

[mshm99]

It seems to me that the key element in long distance shooting is knowing precisely the distance to the intended target. My laser range finder is something I find essential. This year , I harvested a deer at 237 yards. I would not have taken the shot had I not known the yardage.

IMO, the second element is knowing where your bullets trajectory will cause the bullet to strike in relation to how you have chosen to zero your scope.( i.e. 1", 2" etc. high at 100 yards)

IMO ,I also believe the 300 grain BO and others are far superior to any 250 grain.At the bullet speeds we are talking about ,a 150-200 fps really is not going to make much difference. Plus the 300 will retain energy,which will be useful if the deer move right as you drop the hammer,creating a undesirable angle of entry.

I encourage cowboy to shoot both bullets. You can only profit from the range time with our favorite weapon.

mshm

[sw]

The 300SST is still a bullet to consider. The 250TMZ appears to be a bullet to consider since you are interested in long range trajectory/performance. I'd certainly consider a 250BE over a 250 HC. The 275BE is a good in-between bullet worth considering.
Some suggestions: 1) Take most published BCs with a grain of salt, 2) Get your ballistics form true experience: in the field, 3) Take the time to go back and read at least for 100 hrs past posts and see what you might have missed, 4) Consider that there are people here with varied backgrounds and some that have literally shot 1000s(some close to 10,000) shots thru the 10-ML and 10-ML2 and are trying to help you, yet you seem to casually dismiss the help they are trying to give you. There are a # of shooters who have "been there, done that" very well here trying to help, 5) Try to start with a truly open mind at how to reach your goal. A # right here on this thread can hit a quart coffee can at 300 yds, 10 out of 10 shots with their smokeless MLer and with bullets/velocity that will quickly down a deer, any deer. 6) Become a perpetual student. I've devoted years to this gun, helped with the original load verification before printing, etc; but, continually look for things to learn from more knowledgable shooters than I: Edge, RB,Richard,Rossman, Kerry,ET,Harley,Big Moose,Ozark,Wilmsmeyer,Jims,SS,Smoketeer,DD,ewc,Chuck41,Tar12,Rifleman, and on and on. I continually learn from these guys. I suggest, that you carefully consider advice given, especially when you ask for the advice and people take the time to try to help, and ask for clarification when it seems unusual/wrong to you, rather than seeming to dismiss it or go in another direction. This is the best board you'll ever fine. Take advantage of it. Then share your knowledge with the rest of us.

[smitty]

What a great post. Any way sw's (6) suggestions could be listed somewhere under the hints & tips section ? Maybe under First Steps or what I've Learned ?


smitty

[jims]

SW and the others have probably forgotten more about shooting than I will ever know but it was nice to be mentioned nonetheless.
This is the Place to get solid information.

[chuck41]

I can appreciate "Guessed" comment about the milk jug. If I couldn't hit a milk jug consistently then I wouldn't be able to consistently hit the vitals of a deer. If I don't feel confident I can do that I will pass up the shot.

I do think that "flat shooting" is a big thing to consider, at least at long ranges. Look at the ballistics tables. Where I hunt it is very hard to get good estimates of distances at the limit of my shooting lanes. If you are off in your guess by 50yd at those extreme ranges your estimated 250yd shot will likely be a complete miss at only 300. For example a 250gr .45 cal bullet with a fantastic, true .195 BC shot at 2300fps from a gun sighted in at 150yd will be 13" low at 250yd. With a bit of practice and light wind that is quite a doable situation.

However, if your estimate is off a bit and the range is actually 300yd that bullet will be another 13" low (26" total). Even a perfect shot will probably miss the deer completely, or hit it in a leg crippling, but not harvesting it. For me that is unacceptable where I hunt. I will never be able to pick out a target, get on it, laser measure it for range, get out my ballistics estimator, and shoot before the sucker either wanders away or dies of old age.

I use a .40 and get good results with it at the ranges I shoot, but I don't think I will be trying shots much beyond 200yd with it. Just don't have enough confidence of my skill in those regimes.