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Post by rangeball on Feb 19, 2009 11:45:07 GMT -5
Has anyone had success with this bullet? Does it hold up on impact better than the 250 non-bonded SST/Shockwave? Would it expand more reliably on non-bone hits than the 300 grain BO? How would you compare the terminal performance of this bullet to the SST/TC bonded shockwave? And lastly, is the plastic tip offered by traditions the parker BE with a different color tip (traditions yellow, parker black)? Thanks  |
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Post by rangeball on Feb 19, 2009 12:34:57 GMT -5
Oh yeah, assume they have all proven to shoot accurately |
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Post by rexxer on Feb 19, 2009 13:00:34 GMT -5
I ordered some Parkers yesterday in the 250-and 275. I do believe that the 250's have shot extremely well along with its 275 big brother.If one of these bullets shoot well out of my Pacnor it might be my bullet choice for whitetails this year.
Yes,I would think either Parker bullet would expand more readably on a non-bone hit than a BO. I have been a bowhunter most my life and favor the behind the front leg shot over the high shoulder shot.
Is the Parker and the Traditions the same bullet with different head gear? I have heard that rumor but can't confirm that its true.
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Post by rossman40 on Feb 19, 2009 13:21:09 GMT -5
The jacket on the Parker BE is only .018" and is not bonded. This makes them very accurate once you get the right sabot combination but makes them fragile with the close shots. The SST/SW has a jacket thickness in the .025" range in the meplate but also has a much larger nose cavity. Jacket thickness on the BO is like .035" with no nose cavity and relies in the exposed nose to get the expansion started. As far as soft tissue hits the SST/SW will probly expand the fastest with the BE a close second and the BO last. One of the problems with quick expanding bullets is when they encounter heavy bone after expanding, the bullet fragments and/or looses a lot of energy which results in less penetration. I have used both the bonded and non bonded version of the 250gr SST/SW and the advantage of the bonded version is that it stays in bigger chunks. Instead of the jacket peeling and small pieces of lead spreading thru the wound channel if any of the jacket rips off it carries some lead with it. here is a bonded 250gr SW with a neck shot with a impact velocity of around 2150-2200fps,   This is what it did without exiting, the bullet entered the front of the neck and went along the left side of the spine. The hydrostatic shock ripped the hide open.  As far as the plastic tip much like the SST/SW, Parker packaged BEs are black tipped and the Tradition packaged (including the ones Traditions packages for Remington) are yellow tipped. Only the names are changed to protect the innocent. |
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Post by smokeless77 on Feb 19, 2009 18:47:40 GMT -5
Rex, Rangeball , I have been shooting them sabotless since you were able to buy them. The 275s are perfect fit in my barrel, the 250s are loose, have to run them on the files. one of the best bullets i ever shot. Very accurate. Parker will make them any size you want. Just call him and let him no what size
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Post by rexxer on Feb 19, 2009 19:28:43 GMT -5
Parker will make them any size you want. Just call him and let him no what size
Wow, I never knew that!
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Post by smokeless77 on Feb 19, 2009 19:38:29 GMT -5
Rex, I told him that the 250s were a tad smaller in dia. he said he would look into it . He is a really super nice guy .
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Post by rbinar on Feb 19, 2009 20:25:07 GMT -5
Rex, Rangeball , I have been shooting them sabotless since you were able to buy them. The 275s are perfect fit in my barrel, the 250s are loose, have to run them on the files. one of the best bullets i ever shot. Very accurate. Parker will make them any size you want. Just call him and let him no what size I too have had sucess with the Parkers. Those who are the least worried about the bullet being too fragile can use the 275 grain bullet which is a very good compromise of weight and sectional density. Personally I think the 250 is about right for deer, but I'd prefer the deer close and the bullet as fast as possible. Try them if they work in you rifle you'll be satisfied. |
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Post by rexxer on Feb 19, 2009 20:31:23 GMT -5
smokeless and rb
Have you ever had sucess without knurling?
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Post by smokeless77 on Feb 19, 2009 21:22:04 GMT -5
Rex, The 250s in mine are loose, but will fire and still be accurate, but a quick knurl to ease my mind, if you no what i mean.
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Post by Dave W on Feb 20, 2009 5:22:07 GMT -5
Can't say what they will do in a .50 but in a .45 sabotless they are extremely accurate.
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Post by Harley on Feb 20, 2009 8:50:29 GMT -5
Rex, I lapped a Lee .449 die, then ran the 275BE through it. With this die I was able to eliminate knurling. I had no misfires, but my groups were not even close to the size of my .448/knurled Parkers. I suppose I could keep on with the lapping on the .449 die until I get it right, but I'm satisfied with knurling as a superior technique.
Harley
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Post by rangeball on Feb 20, 2009 9:35:32 GMT -5
Thanks Fellas... I guess I lean to more of the hold's together and expands side of the debate. I had thought the parkers were bonded, so learned something new. How about the harvester scorpion PT gold? www.harvestermuzzleloading.com/index.php?page=shop.browse&category_id=8&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=3Can't find it on their website but the literature they sent me says they are electroplated copper that does not separate, and they've added 3% antimony to the core making it harder than normal. Reason for all the questions, I'm getting ready to order a bunch of bullets and sabots to try, and am trying to narrow my choices down as the list is getting long and expensive... I figure if I test proven terminal performers, the most accurate combo should serve me well no matter what it ends up being |
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Post by rexxer on Feb 20, 2009 10:15:01 GMT -5
Rex, I lapped a Lee .449 die, then ran the 275BE through it. With this die I was able to eliminate knurling. I had no misfires, but my groups were not even close to the size of my .448/knurled Parkers. I suppose I could keep on with the lapping on the .449 die until I get it right, but I'm satisfied with knurling as a superior technique. Harley Harley I don't blame you for changing nothing! Remember you are the long range champ on targets and game! ;D To be quite honest if my new setup could shoot twice the size groups ,or maybe three times the group size as yours I would feel very happy! I can't say you didn't earn it either! I remember all the things you went through to get you where you are at. I'm impessed with your shooting skills along with a great shooting rifle! |
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Post by rossman40 on Feb 20, 2009 16:04:23 GMT -5
Rangeball, the Harvester Scorpions are basically plated Rainier bullets. The way I was told Rainier was started by two guys from Speer so the technology is basically the same. Plated bullets can have a plating thickness anywhere from .004" to .018" or more. Less then .004" is sometimes called a "wash" instead of plating. One of the side effects of plating is that it is pure copper and softer (I think the correct term is malleable) then normal jacket material. Normal jacket material is gilding metal which is copper with zinc added and hardens when being drawn or shaped. Plating bonds with the core on a molecular level so the core and jacket is bonded. A plated bullet will obturate easier and maybe even too much in our use. Noted plated bullets are the Speer Gold Dots and UniCors whose technology has spawned the Federal Fusion line, the Hornady FPBs, the Harvester Scorpions and Sabertooth and also Berry's Bullets has a tipped bullet that is interesting, www.berrysmfg.com/product.aspx?i=14723&c=73&pp=8&sb=0&p=0As far as core material lead is pretty soft and all the bullet makers have their own recipe for the lead core. Common additives are tin which lowers the melting point and makes the lead flow better when casting or drawn and only slightly hardens it. Antimony hardens lead but also makes it brittle and too much like over 10% and there is no mushroom, the bullet just breaks up. Arsenic is another additive which just a very small amount will let you heat treat harden the lead. Probly the most common alloy in casting is commonly referred to as Lyman #2, which is 5% tin, 5% antimony, 90% lead which results in a hardness of 15 BHN. Pure lead has a hardness of 5 BHN and a alloy of 10% tin, 90% lead will have a hardness of 11 BHN. Old bullet casters all had their own recipe, one guy I knew when I was much younger used so many pounds of plumbers lead (pure lead), so much wheel weights and/or linotype and so much of a certain brand of solder, he did cast some mighty fine bullets. |
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Post by rangeball on Feb 20, 2009 16:21:09 GMT -5
Interesting about the scorpion PTs being plated raniers. I know they don't recommend you push them past 1200 fps or so, yet harvester is advertising them iirc 2250fps on their site. I was hoping a few hundred more fps wouldn't be a problem.
I assume you would expect these to break up more so than the parkers?
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Post by Al on Feb 21, 2009 2:58:56 GMT -5
Rangeball, the Harvester Scorpions are basically plated Rainier bullets. The way I was told Rainier was started by two guys from Speer so the technology is basically the same. Plated bullets can have a plating thickness anywhere from .004" to .018" or more. Less then .004" is sometimes called a "wash" instead of plating. One of the side effects of plating is that it is pure copper and softer (I think the correct term is malleable) then normal jacket material. Normal jacket material is gilding metal which is copper with zinc added and hardens when being drawn or shaped. Plating bonds with the core on a molecular level so the core and jacket is bonded. A plated bullet will obturate easier and maybe even too much in our use. Noted plated bullets are the Speer Gold Dots and UniCors whose technology has spawned the Federal Fusion line, the Hornady FPBs, the Harvester Scorpions and Sabertooth and also Berry's Bullets has a tipped bullet that is interesting, www.berrysmfg.com/product.aspx?i=14723&c=73&pp=8&sb=0&p=0As far as core material lead is pretty soft and all the bullet makers have their own recipe for the lead core. Common additives are tin which lowers the melting point and makes the lead flow better when casting or drawn and only slightly hardens it. Antimony hardens lead but also makes it brittle and too much like over 10% and there is no mushroom, the bullet just breaks up. Arsenic is another additive which just a very small amount will let you heat treat harden the lead. Probly the most common alloy in casting is commonly referred to as Lyman #2, which is 5% tin, 5% antimony, 90% lead which results in a hardness of 15 BHN. Pure lead has a hardness of 5 BHN and a alloy of 10% tin, 90% lead will have a hardness of 11 BHN. Old bullet casters all had their own recipe, one guy I knew when I was much younger used so many pounds of plumbers lead (pure lead), so much wheel weights and/or linotype and so much of a certain brand of solder, he did cast some mighty fine bullets. I can tell you the Rainer 300gr 45cal flat points, have a .004 plating thickness on them, at least from the last batch I got, are that thick. I was hoping to be able to reform the nose a bit and shoot them sabotless, but I couldn't get them to even pattern on my 32" x 32" target backer @ 70yds, so the rest we'll try in sabots, but as Rossman said, I think they still maybe too soft for top end loads. I'll look around for some Speers and cut one up to see what they are for plating thickness, just hope they are on the thicker side. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2009 8:53:45 GMT -5
rex,I have on hand barnes 290 tez, 275 parker be, and 300sst that will all be tried sabotless, whatever bullet I settle on I hope to push in the 2400-2500 fps range from the 28" barrel. I feel reasonably sure that all three of these bullets are good deer getters if they accurate at that speed. hopefully my barrel will be here in a week or two and I can get started....Bill
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Post by rexxer on Feb 21, 2009 11:37:11 GMT -5
Bill
I don't blame you for getting anxious for your barrel. I'm kind of torn between shooting the light bullets with sabots or sabotless. I will start out trying both ,who knows what direction I will end at.
I really went to the .45 pacnor to get rid of the higher recoil of the fifty. When I think I'm finally convinced Harley come along and shoots lights out, then I find myself on the other side. I went out and bought some.451 Barnes xpb,Barnes 195,sst 200,Parkers 250 and 275. I'm not sure else what to try but it should be fun this spring. It seems if I could get the Parker 250 to shoot it would be a nice compromise.
I did add a simms recoil pad and now I'm in the process of bedding my action!It seems like we are going to have a few more pacnors around so loads and techniques should get interesting.
Knurling bullets still blows my mind. I can't see how knurling a bullet can inprove accuracy over a proper sized bullet in a draw ring. Harley keeps proving ths over and over so I guess I will just accept the facts. I can't see how the dimples work on a golf ball either!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2009 11:45:01 GMT -5
rex, a knurled bullet is a much tighter fit vs a sized only, I think thats where the accuracy difference comes into play, I agree it will be a interesting spring...Bill
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Post by rossman40 on Feb 22, 2009 1:21:27 GMT -5
Like everything the bullet maker has to weigh all the factors and balance them out. To keep the softer lead for good terminal effects you would have to increase plating thickness.
In my days playing with cast bullets I was always told speed was the factor on how fast a cast bullet could be shot without fouling. Then you would run across instances where with one load there was little fouling and you would switch powder and even though the speed was pretty much the same the bullet fouled bad. What was found was that chamber pressure was the main factor. The higher the chamber pressure the more the bullet obturated, the more the bullet obturated the more pressure on the rifling, the more pressure on the rifling the more friction, the more friction the more heat which left molten lead behind. So to cut back on how much the bullet obturated you made the bullet harder but too hard then you lost terminal effects. Then came gas checks to act as a pusher plate and scraper. With plated bullets if you over obturate you will melt and peel thin plating off as we have seen with the FPBs. Three 50gr pellets of BP sub has a pressure in the 20,000 psi range while the 10ML smokeless loads are in the 40,000 psi range and more. If a bullet maker makes a cast .452 bullet tough enough for a 454 Casull or 460 S&W with pressures in the 50,000 psi range it may not even obturate in a 45 LC load with a pressure in the 20,000 range.
With a sabot we do not have to worry about fouling and it is hard to see over obturation. It has been a proven fact non jacketed lead bullets pushed hard out of a 10ML doesn't work even in a sabot. I think when shooting sabotless the thing to watch for is fouling. You start getting heavy fouling and it may be a sign/result of over obturation. And the accuracy killer with over obturation is the bullet may not obturate evenly and the bullet does not exit balanced and/or stable as you want.
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Post by savagebeast on Feb 23, 2009 14:50:03 GMT -5
Can anyone tell me bullet diameter for the Parker's. .451 or .452.? I do not see this info on their website.
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Post by Dave W on Feb 23, 2009 14:57:42 GMT -5
Can anyone tell me bullet diameter for the Parker's. .451 or .452.? I do not see this info on their website. .4505 for the BE .451 for the Hydracon series |
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Post by rangeball on Feb 23, 2009 14:59:59 GMT -5
Are the hydracon's tougher than the BE, and are they bonded?
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Post by Dave W on Feb 23, 2009 15:07:49 GMT -5
I think Bigmoose said they can remove the fluid in the Hydracon to toughen it up but I don't recall reading anymore on the matter. Larry took a Canada buck with a Parker BE maybe he can post his results.
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larry
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Post by larry on Feb 23, 2009 18:40:35 GMT -5
I think Bigmoose said they can remove the fluid in the Hydracon to toughen it up but I don't recall reading anymore on the matter. Larry took a Canada buck with a Parker BE maybe he can post his results. I did shoot a 250lb Canadian deer with the 275BE using 44-4759. The deer was shot at the base of the neck where it meets the shoulder and was DRT. Distance was approx. 100yds. As far as the recovered bullet , all I was able to find was a piece of the jacket.  |
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