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Post by fowlplay on Feb 19, 2009 1:10:54 GMT -5
We all know that the sabot bullets will survive a doable load in the 50 and now the 45 caliber. Does the sabot act as a relief valve when pressure goes to high or does a sabot even matters.
Has anybody shot a double load sabotless? Did the gun survive. I bring up these concerns because of the increase in the 50, 45, and the 40 of shooting sabotless. We all make mistakes but nothing we do is worth getting injured for. I ask these questions because if I ever decide to shoot sabotless and accidently double load will the barrel and I survive.
Do we need more data. Has anybody taken a bulged barrel and used it as a test barrel and double loaded it sabotless with a long string on the trigger. I hope the outcome would be that the barrel stayed together. Any thoughts.
Steve
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Post by rbinar on Feb 19, 2009 4:42:20 GMT -5
We all know that the sabot bullets will survive a doable load in the 50 and now the 45 caliber. Does the sabot act as a relief valve when pressure goes to high or does a sabot even matters. Has anybody shot a double load sabotless? Did the gun survive. I bring up these concerns because of the increase in the 50, 45, and the 40 of shooting sabotless. We all make mistakes but nothing we do is worth getting injured for. I ask these questions because if I ever decide to shoot sabotless and accidently double load will the barrel and I survive. Do we need more data. Has anybody taken a bulged barrel and used it as a test barrel and double loaded it sabotless with a long string on the trigger. I hope the outcome would be that the barrel stayed together. Any thoughts. Steve If you are going to shoot a double load sabot-less I'd suggest you reconsider. I can't tell you how much a problem it would be, same as I can't tell you how much a problem mistaking a full load of 4895 for 4198 would be in a case. I can say it would be unpleasant. I know things happen and I would be the last to suggest I'm so careful it can't happen to me. The thing I think we all can agree on is it's preventable. You may not care to know but all my life I've spent working low, medium and high voltage. When doing technical work the forces that can be released are much more than can be produced by gun shots. I've been asked often what we would do if one of our technicians or electricians made a mistake. The answer is "we don't make mistakes" as counterintuitive as that may seem it is exactly how it has to be approached. When it's do it right or go home in a box: chose the former. |
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Post by bigmoose on Feb 19, 2009 6:58:47 GMT -5
I second what Rick said, it can happen to anyone, knowing that here's what I do, I take out 5 powder vails, five bullets and five wonder wads, so I'm looking at what I'm doing, It is very hard to make a mistake that way, and of couse, check your witness marks if in doubt.
Good luck
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Post by smokeeter on Feb 19, 2009 9:12:10 GMT -5
I second what Rick said, it can happen to anyone, knowing that here's what I do, I take out 5 powder vails, five bullets and five wonder wads, so I'm looking at what I'm doing, It is very hard to make a mistake that way, and of couse, check your witness marks if in doubt. Good luck Marty I do the same except I only lay out one of each, big numbers confuse me. and I use the witness mark for insurance. |
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Post by rangeball on Feb 19, 2009 9:51:19 GMT -5
fowlplay, the points you bring up are exactly those used by SMI when they told me if I said I was planning to shoot sabotless they wouldn't sell me a barrel. They stressed that sh... stuff happens, and at least with the sabot you have a chance it can act as a relief valve.
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Post by Harley on Feb 19, 2009 9:54:27 GMT -5
Smokeeter has said it all: I go back to my truck between shots for the next vials of powder. I say out loud as I'm seating the bullet, "Witness mark". I do these as religiously as I always keep one hand behind my back when working with a live circuit.
Harley
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Post by rbinar on Feb 19, 2009 10:14:49 GMT -5
fowlplay, the points you bring up are exactly those used by SMI when they told me if I said I was planning to shoot sabotless they wouldn't sell me a barrel. They stressed that sh... stuff happens, and at least with the sabot you have a chance it can act as a relief valve. That's all fine and good except I think it could give a false sense of security. A sabot doesn't guarantee safety. I've seen shooters and rifles as well that are well past what was expected even with sabots. The sabot might lessen a dangerous condition on some occasions, for that reason I don't directly challenge your point. However you really can't double load a sabot and expect no problems. |
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Post by bloodtrailer on Feb 19, 2009 10:25:33 GMT -5
I lay out three bullets three sabots three vials and I look at my witness mark, I'm not the brightest but I can count to three(counting holes in my target with spotting scope). If there is any question I pull the breach plug and push the load out, rather waist range time then hospital bed time.
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Post by rangeball on Feb 19, 2009 10:27:24 GMT -5
Absolutely agree. The "might lessen a dangerous condition" was their point as well. No guarantees. That said, my brother-in-law double loaded and shot his savage, two holes in the target, no damage to gun, life or limb. 500 grains of bullets and 82 grains of VV110. Luckily only the first charge ignited. Buddy the first day shooting his new savage was about to send his ram-rod downrange when I noticed it and stopped him. Sh...stuff happens  |
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Post by edge on Feb 19, 2009 10:32:17 GMT -5
I can't count that high  Two vials ( duplex  ), 1 fiber wad, one bullet/sabot and 1 primer. The empty vials stay out until after I shoot and get the powder vials for the next shot. I save what brain cells are working for trying to hit the target Witness mark is a given. edge. |
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Post by KerryB on Feb 19, 2009 11:24:34 GMT -5
Unfortunately, it is only a matter of time before someone shoots a double sabotless load or a ramrod/sabotless load and we will see what happens at that time. I do believe that the sabots offer a margin of safety which will be absent with sabotless. It remains to be seen if the barrel can contain the pressure without sabot blow by, but i suspect we might see a catastrophic failure. If you plan to shoot sabotless, then you had better plan to be extra careful and pay attention to details. We have all seen by now that these sort of loading errors can be made by anyone and some of our most experienced shooters have done so. If you have any doubts, or even an uneasy feeling about sabotless, then please stick with saboted loads and maintain that slight safety edge. There just isn't that much advantage to going sabotless to risk life or limb! All of this is JMHO, so take it how you will.............but i sure want you all to be safe and in one piece. KerryB |
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Post by joe21a on Feb 19, 2009 12:39:31 GMT -5
I have written 3 different post and deleted them before posting so as not to upset anyone. These thing should not happen and we just need to be careful all the time . The use of a witness mark every time is very important.
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Post by Richard on Feb 19, 2009 20:27:54 GMT -5
Amen! to all that was said above!
Richard
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Post by fowlplay on Feb 19, 2009 22:14:49 GMT -5
I also lay out one load at a time and have never had a problem. I also feel the same way KerryB describe that it is just a matter of time before we see a double sabot load. I hope I'm wrong. There is always the possibility of error anytime we do anything manually. I'm not discouraging sabotless loads. This post is to raise extra awareness to safety for those that shoot or thinking about shooting sabotless. Stay safe and use those witness marks.
Steve
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Post by smokeless77 on Feb 19, 2009 22:37:49 GMT -5
When in Doubt, Dont shoot it out. Thats what i say to myself when i dont think something is right.It only takes a few minutes to check it out.
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Post by ozark on Feb 20, 2009 21:07:21 GMT -5
When there is a possibility of causing death, serious injury or even destroying a rifle don't ask others for advice. Insure that the brain is in gear before letting the clutch out on steps one through to the final step. Develop your own system that you personally know is safe and dependable. Using a reference mark is fine but if it ever gives you a red light make the needed steps to insure it doesn't happen again. Don't depend on the strength of the Savage. Depend on the safety standards you have adopted for yourself and make carelessness something that you avoid like a coiled rattlesnake. Don't be careful. Be certain. Ozark
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Feb 21, 2009 4:12:06 GMT -5
Using your witness mark will be your best bet. Laying out this and that in a certain order...5 of each....2 of this and that..talking out loud.....that's all well and good. Don't forget to look at the witness mark. The witness mark.
Witness mark.
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Post by sagittarius on Feb 21, 2009 9:39:07 GMT -5
Using your witness mark will be your best bet. Laying out this and that in a certain order...5 of each....2 of this and that..talking out loud.....that's all well and good. Don't forget to look at the witness mark. The witness mark. Witness mark. Agree, the "witness mark" is the key ! |
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Post by smokeeter on Feb 21, 2009 10:00:04 GMT -5
Using your witness mark will be your best bet. Laying out this and that in a certain order...5 of each....2 of this and that..talking out loud.....that's all well and good. Don't forget to look at the witness mark. The witness mark. Witness mark. After checking the witness mark , don't forget to remove the ramrod. |
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Post by sagittarius on Feb 21, 2009 11:03:39 GMT -5
After checking the witness mark , don't forget to remove the ramrod.[/quote] Got it ! |
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Post by Dave W on Feb 21, 2009 11:18:21 GMT -5
Once the shot is fired, safety engaged and target checked and spent primer removed my routine consists of:
1- Bullet jag is removed, 1 alcohol saturated patch-both sides, 1 dry patch both sides but on the second side of the dry patch I leave the range rod bottomed out on the breech plug. I do this to remind me there is no powder or bullet in the barrel and the range rod should absorb some of the heat, hastening barrel cooling.
After the allotted time for barrel cooling.
2-I remove the range rod and replace the bullet jag on the rod and lay the rod on the shooting bags. I do this to remind me the bullet has not been seated in case I get distracted once the bullet has been started.
3-I mark 2 lands on the bore with a Sharpie marker insuring that there are 2 lands grabbing each petal on the sabot.
4-I remove 1 sabot, 1 bullet, 1 primer and 1 powder load from each of their respective containers and lay them on the table, this way I know that there is no chance of any additional components getting into the barrel.
5-Pour in the powder and start the bullet.
6-Remove rod from bags and seat bullet to the correct depth and verify by checking that the mark on my range rod is even with the top of the barrel, place rod on table now as a reminder that the components are in the barrel and seated.
7-Place rifle on bags and and insert primer.
For me the location of the range rod tells me exactly where I am in the reloading process. Be safe guys.
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), 1 fiber wad, one bullet/sabot and 1 primer. The empty vials stay out until after I shoot and get the powder vials for the next shot. I save what brain cells are working for trying to hit the target 
