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Post by deadeer on Feb 18, 2009 12:10:56 GMT -5
Hey fellas,
I know this will be a matter of opinion, but what do you feel is the better of the 200-300yd bullets for deer? I have read that many guys have a hard time getting TMZ's to shoot good at speed, but it has been a proven performer to 200 yd for several of us lately in modern inlines (will be first year with 10ml2). It always gives 2 holes and seems that nothing can stop it. I have read that some are not getting expansion with BO's and some have great success. Don't know why. Same with SST's. I did use Harvester PT Gold's and lost 2 deer shot in the shoulder last year, very disappointing, but they do shoot straight. My buddy killed one of the 2 deer afterwards, and we found the bullet mushroomed flat and stopped after breaking the leg bone, but did not penetrate. I hope the flat base TMZ might shoot ok? Any thoughts? Thanks. deadeer
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Feb 18, 2009 12:21:46 GMT -5
Assuming a .50 cal.
Long range deer bullet? Anything at 300 gr in .452-.458 and kinda pointy is great. A lot fall into this catagory. In 250 class if shooting really fast, I'd want the TMZ if it could shoot. At book speeds, all the other pointy stuff is fine.
200 gr. Probably SST only which is hard to shoot great in a .50 cal using a .40 sabot
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Post by edge on Feb 18, 2009 13:06:50 GMT -5
Over 200 yards I would tend toward a more fragile bullet unless shooting very fast. I shoot a full custom ML and shoot very fast with Nosler Accubond rifle bullets, but the drawback to a bullet that can take an impact at 3000fps means that below 1800 fps expansion is not reliable. The TMZ is a great bullet, but at some range the velocity will have fallen to where you may not get the expansion that you might like. On the other end are the pistol bullets that will expand at very low velocities but may fragment on close shots. IMO, if I had an equal chance of a good buck at 50 yards and at 300 yards I would probably pick a 300 grain SST, Parker, or BO. I want reliable expansion at 300 and my aim will probably not be as precise. At 50 yards I should be able to make a pinpoint hit and avoid large bones on the entrance, or at least be assured of an incapacitating first shot.....but this is a tough call IMO edge.
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Post by bloodtrailer on Feb 18, 2009 13:51:25 GMT -5
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Post by deadeer on Feb 18, 2009 14:11:29 GMT -5
I have not had great faith or luck with 250 gr SST in 20ga or inline, very accurate though. Some had little to no expansion between 50-150 yd for some reason, (lower velocity) probably. Have heard some on both sides of that coin too, good luck/bad luck, but is the 300 gr SST that much tougher? If it is, is it more than just because of increased SD, or is it jacket thickness? I have seen cutaway pics of xtp/xtp mag/hdy 458 on the old board, and was surprised to see hdy 458 has the thinnest jacket, so why does it seem to hold together better than the others, (according to what I have read, not personal experience)? I have a lot of different bullets to try, but wonder if just sticking with one and making the most of it is the way to go. I did that with Nos BT in an Encore pistol, and have never regretted it. I almost always take a spine/high shoulder/neck shot, and the shock nearly always gives DRT results, even if off slightly, but have not had same results with large diameter, slower bullets. Still looking for the magic combo I guess. Thanks for your input. deadeer
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Post by lwh723 on Feb 18, 2009 14:17:23 GMT -5
I have not had great faith or luck with 250 gr SST in 20ga or inline, very accurate though. Some had little to no expansion between 50-150 yd for some reason, (lower velocity) probably. Have heard some on both sides of that coin too, good luck/bad luck, but is the 300 gr SST that much tougher? If it is, is it more than just because of increased SD, or is it jacket thickness? I have seen cutaway pics of xtp/xtp mag/hdy 458 on the old board, and was surprised to see hdy 458 has the thinnest jacket, so why does it seem to hold together better than the others, (according to what I have read, not personal experience)? I have a lot of different bullets to try, but wonder if just sticking with one and making the most of it is the way to go. I did that with Nos BT in an Encore pistol, and have never regretted it. I almost always take a spine/high shoulder/neck shot, and the shock nearly always gives DRT results, even if off slightly, but have not had same results with large diameter, slower bullets. Still looking for the magic combo I guess. Thanks for your input. deadeer I shot 5 deer with the 250 SST in 20g this year. I was pretty happy with it, but I only shot 1 deer past 50 yards. Had complete passthroughs on everything, but there were jacket fragments in most of the wound channels. The one I shot at about 80 yards had good expansion on a double lung hit.
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Post by dougedwards on Feb 18, 2009 16:13:15 GMT -5
WE pretty much know the speed that we are going to shoot when we go hunting but many times don't know the distance. If a bullet doesn't expand at close ranges and zips right through the whitetail it doesn't bother me. The pure speed of a spinning projectile will shock the deer's system to the point that it shouldn't go too far before expiring.
A thin jacketed 300 gr bullet usually works fine for all applications because of it's increased mass over it's 250 grain counterpart. IMO bullet expansion is over rated. If I decide to hunt with 250 grain bullets I usually choose all copper ones.
I haven't used the Parker but the thick jacketed BO seems to be the ultimate hunting bullet in the Savage 10ML as it is usually accurate at long ranges and maintains minimal weight loss after entering the animal. If a bullet can do that then I am happy. Expansion is just a little icing on the cake.
Doug
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Feb 18, 2009 17:45:50 GMT -5
To Dougedwards...
Yup
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Post by whyohe on Feb 18, 2009 17:57:41 GMT -5
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Post by zakjak221 on Feb 18, 2009 19:09:16 GMT -5
I used 250 gr SST's for a few years and was not getting pass thru's and as a result no blood trails. This is based on shots from 40-150 yds. Last season I used the 300 gr Rem. and it was DTR. Yardage was 110 using 45 gr 5744. 300 gr's seem to have better punch.
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Post by smokeless77 on Feb 18, 2009 19:31:14 GMT -5
Harley Are you shooting the parkers b/e with a sabot or sabotless?
John
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Post by younghunter86 on Feb 18, 2009 20:18:00 GMT -5
First and foremost is accuracy. Which means, that of what I've tried so far the BO is the ticket. Your results may vary.
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Post by iowamuzzleloader on Feb 19, 2009 1:46:26 GMT -5
I agree with doug and younghunter86. A 2 inch broadhead is no replacement for placement. IMO at the distance you want to shoot, an expansive bullet may sacrifice too in much penetration. A front "T" bone shoulder shot at 200-300 yards may not penetrate. Take the powerbelts for example. A 100 yard gut shot rarely gets a pass through. Not that any one with these guns shoots those but you get the idea.
I've helped freinds on numerous occasions track deer shot with a regular smokepole and a powerbelt, to the end of the bloodtrail. Not to the deer. So for penetration confidence I like the 300 grain pointy ones like the BO.
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Post by rbinar on Feb 19, 2009 4:18:38 GMT -5
Where's the goat? The first thing I'd try to do when considering a "long range Bullet" is try to find a bullet I could actually hit about where I like at long range.
All other considerations seem rather trivial to me if you miss. So I'd suggest actually shooting at long range and get some results. If you find a bullet accurate enough then it will probably work. The one thing I can assure you is if it's not accurate enough it won't work.
When you find two bullets that work at the range you'd like to shoot, then, and only then, do you have a discussion about what bullets are best at long range.
Debates are fine, you've all seen me take part in a few. The place to settle the debate is at the range and then in the field. In the field accuracy will come first. If you find a tough, heavy, bullet that really shoots at range I'm the first to say don't even consider another. However if you find another more frangile bullet that shoots lights out, replacing it with a tougher model is plain silly.
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Feb 19, 2009 5:17:22 GMT -5
To what RB pointed out.....that should go without saying. Most posts, including mine, assumes the bullet has already been proven to shoot on paper.
YES...if a 250 gr XTP is the only bullet I could shoot with amazing accuracy....all others spraying around.....the 250 XTP would get the nod.
Some do not like to debate on hypotheticals and I understand. I think the question on the topic was wondering what bullet(s) had the best exterior and terminal ballistics wrapped into one bullet. Of course it must shoot well.
Even at long range, the short range scenerio's need addressing. I plan for the longish feild shots when target shooting....then I kill all my deer under 100 yds at high speed. BUT...I was ready out to my comfort zone.
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Post by dougedwards on Feb 19, 2009 7:42:07 GMT -5
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Post by edge on Feb 19, 2009 8:18:58 GMT -5
It seems strange that you did not assume that the hunter would be shooting it if he did not meet his criteria for hunting accuracy! Since apparently that was not a given, then pick an accurate bullet If as some assume a bullet is a bullet is a bullet and that distance means nothing, then buy a non-expanding solid bullet and get virtually the same wound from 10 yards to 500 yards and be done with it....OH, but make sure its accurate ;D edge.
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Post by rbinar on Feb 19, 2009 10:06:21 GMT -5
It seems strange that you did not assume that the hunter would be shooting it if he did not meet his criteria for hunting accuracy! Since apparently that was not a given, then pick an accurate bullet edge. It seems equally strange to me that a bullet could be assumed to work just because I deem it accurate. ;D The only given is if you try it and it works use it. If it doesn't don't. The wound channel will only count if you hit the target. I hate to argue with some who's smarter than I am because it makes me look bad. But I'm right about something even if I don't know what it is.
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Post by deadeer on Feb 19, 2009 10:14:07 GMT -5
What a nice variety of opinions! Thanks for everyones input. To Whyohe, thanks for those links. I was thinking everyone was under the assumption that the bullet would be very accurate or it wouldn't even be considered. That is the most important aspect of ethical hunting, for everyone, or you shouldn't be hunting. Yes, bad things happen to every hunter, but we have to minimalize them. We hunt mainly open fields, so we need to be prepared for a long shot if necessary. Same as Wilmsmeyer said, most shots do end up alot closer, but you have to be prepared for all. I have seen many deer shot with a bullet that passed thru with little/no expansion, and they ran looong distances, even though they bled good. But, the bullet that disrupts on a good shot may "fail" on a shoulder shot, so you really can't have your cake and eat it too. I am thinking the 300 SST looked awfully good in those tests, IF I can't get the TMZ to shoot good. I can always go back to my 6.5mm pistol if all else "fails." Thanks guys. deadeer
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Post by dougedwards on Feb 19, 2009 21:07:29 GMT -5
Interesting subject! There was a visual on the internet of bullet testing through a gelatin type of medium. The slow motion impact of a spinning bullet at high velocity showed a girating outward shockwave that impacted the whole mass. Gelatin isn't a living animal but it left a visual in my mind of what the affect of speed combined with centrifugal force can have on an impacted soft solid matter.
While bullet expansion for terminal effect is generally considered preferable it would surely seem that as the bullet malformed it would lose velocity and it's potential for spinning. The idea of course behind bullet expansion is the creation of a larger wound channel to accellerate blood loss but I have to wonder if the slowed down bullet that is malformed and taking up more space has as much of a shocking impact on the nervous system as the spinning bullet that zips straight through while maintaining greater velocity. Who knows.....just something to think about.
RB is spot on concering bullet choosing. A missed shot is a total waste and great shot placement with the most fragil of bullets will reap a terminal effect on whiteails. This is the reason that I bring up the 300 grain Barnes Original Semi-Spitzer. Does this bullet not shoot accurately, long and short range, in all Savage 10ML rifles in combination with the proper sabot and load? I think you would be hard pressed to find a Savage muzzleloader that just wouldn't shoot this bullet accurately.
If the debate is concerning terminal effect then let the speculation begin but as far as potential for accuracy is concerning that is something that we can prove. Show me a Savage 10ML barrel that will not shoot the BO accurately and I will show you one that needs to go back to Joe Degrande for inspection. ;D Just my two pennies.
Doug
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Post by Harley on Feb 19, 2009 22:29:58 GMT -5
Smokeless77, I'm shooting the Parker 275BE sabotless. At a fairly slow 2307 fps MV, it groups less than .5" consistently at 100 yards. I've only shot one target each at 300 and 400 yards, but they were 1.7" and 1.8", respectively. I've killed two deer with this load, one at 186 yards and the other at 319 yards. Neither ran more than 30 or so yards. I recovered the bullet from the 319 yard kill and found it to have mushroomed perfectly, retaining 78% of its initial weight. It penetrated the shoulder bone, cut two ribs and did a tremendous amount of damage in the chest cavity.
The above are "real world" results, even though a limited number of shots.
Harley
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Post by fowlplay on Feb 19, 2009 22:45:56 GMT -5
Harley, You definitely have a dang good shooting rifle. But "real world" results would suggest that the nut behind the but is a helluva shooter also. Period. Steve
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Post by smokeless77 on Feb 19, 2009 22:57:10 GMT -5
Harley have you tried to load the 250s b/es? Was wondering if they were loose in your rifle.
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Post by Harley on Feb 19, 2009 23:15:38 GMT -5
No, I've only used the 275's, and resize to .448, then knurl.
Harley
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Post by smokeless77 on Feb 19, 2009 23:27:04 GMT -5
Thanks Harley, I recovered two bullets out of two diffrent deer, with the same results.
John
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Post by rbinar on Feb 20, 2009 2:24:22 GMT -5
Interesting subject! If the debate is concerning terminal effect then let the speculation begin but as far as potential for accuracy is concerning that is something that we can prove. Show me a Savage 10ML barrel that will not shoot the BO accurately and I will show you one that needs to go back to Joe Degrande for inspection. ;D Just my two pennies. Doug I have a barrel that does not need to go back and won't shoot the BO. It can't shoot the BO if I don't try it and I haven't. I'm completely unqualified to talk about the BO because I never slid one down a barrel. So I never say if it's a great bullet or a dud. You all can give me enough information to convince me it will likely work but I have to try to know for my self. That's the reason I don't want to list a bullet here and say it's good to X number of yards. I know a lot of bullets that have worked for me, but they might confuse someone else. One of the most accurate bullets I've shot in the 10ML is one I can't remember the name. It was distinctive because it was hollow through and through. You had to have a lexan washer at the base to keep from drilling the sabot. It was fairly effective on the single deer I shot with it as well. I touted it as the best way for people to shoot very light bullets (200 grains) in the 10ML for some time. Was it a good bullet, apparently not as no one uses it today but at the time my opinion was positive. I say one thing for the BO it has a large following. As long as those shooters are following because of their personal results I think that's the exact correct thing to do. There are bullets its' equal (MO) but only because of what worked for me. I won't hawk the Parker or SST or whatever. This post has "long range" in the title and that means to me a generic recommendation won't do. You have to find what works
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Feb 20, 2009 6:13:56 GMT -5
Sometimes these bullet debates get so finicky and technically complicated that I shake uncontrollably. However, that's OK. Everyones input here is full of excellent thoughts.
I tend to approach them from the standpoint of a hunter. A hunter that has killed 75+ deer....at least 50 with an ML in the past 6-7 years. Also as a shooter that pursues speed and accuracy. One who has shot almost every bullet we talk about...at least at targets. I haven't wounded or lost a deer in a long, long time. A testement to extreme skill and bullet selection??? NO...but it does play a small part. Shot selection and knowing the limitations of myself, gun and the conditions of the situation (running deer? shakey rest? obstacles inbetween?) get the credit for extreme lethality.
The subject "long range deer bullet" IMO has a slight flaw in it....from a hunting aspect. It assumes long range only. The flaw being the elimination of the close encounter. Even if you hunt in a padded, heated, bench-rested house blind....you have to approach it...you have to leave it. There is probably close opportunities out one of the windows in most cases. To me, hunting deer isn't a video game where you can set the parameters...or a target range where you can set your target at only 322 yds or whatever. From the time I cross the ditch at the side of the road, go out the back door at camp or stalk my way back to my starting point...I'm hunting
My point is that although it's obvious a bullet must be accurate, and PROVED so by the hunter, at long range....a person is not doing his due diligence if he is not comfortable with that bullet at other ranges which can be encountered...and probably will.
This is only my take as an experienced hair testing, addicted to deer hunting, paper punching shooting nut!
So as anyone re-reads my post...(1st reply to deadeer) this is where my comments come from. I do have favorite bullets and I lumped them in with others that will (should) also work fine. I realize that even though the Barnes line up has batted 1.000 for me in many seasons, they may not be for you. In my line up, I included 200 SST's which are NOT for me...but may be for you.
YES...pick accuracy over construction. And NO...don't focus your attention so much at the back of the forest that you don't even see the the big one behind the bush 30 yds ahead of you as you approach the forest. Most of you are hunters and know what I mean.
This is a good thread for everyone...new and seasoned hunters. For the new guys, you have a lot to digest and experience for yourselves. For the guys who have killed a lot of deer I apologize for preaching to the choir.
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Post by dougedwards on Feb 20, 2009 7:26:42 GMT -5
I usually learn more in debates than I do when talking with people who agree with me. ;D
Doug
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Post by Harley on Feb 20, 2009 8:40:02 GMT -5
Doug, that only works for people who are willing to listen.
Harley
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Post by sw on Feb 20, 2009 8:52:00 GMT -5
One of the most accurate bullets I've shot in the 10ML is one I can't remember the name. It was distinctive because it was hollow through and through. You had to have a lexan washer at the base to keep from drilling the sabot. It was fairly effective on the single deer I shot with it as well. I touted it as the best way for people to shoot very light bullets (200 grains) in the 10ML for some time. Was it a good bullet, apparently not as no one uses it today but at the time my opinion was positive. RB, it is the JADA line of bullets. They are very accurate. I never shot it at anything except paper. This subject of frangible vs pass-thru bullets will likely never end(except when we have no more guns). Maybe only criminals will continue the discussion. I like the performance of both types of bullets. It's kind of like "what kind of pie does Dwight love?" Ans: what ever is available. When I shoot a deer with a 200SST, I just love how it performed, but when I shoot a deer with a 195 Barnes, I just love the performance - even though it is different. Likely my longer range rifle will be the 40 and a 200SST , but it may be the 45 with a 275 BE or 195 Barnes. With more frangible bullets, we should make sure to not hit hard stuff at very short ranges; but this shouldn't be hard to do. I think too big of a deal is made of this debate. We Americans see things generally in black and whites. One must be good and the other bad. We do this in politics and most other things: one real winner and all the rest loosers. I see both 195 Barnes and 200SSTs as winners with each having their advantages. One day I prefer one and others days the other. Accuracy and trajectory testing to 400 yds will make the decision for me.
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