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Post by tar12 on Sept 25, 2010 20:08:19 GMT -5
Let me get this straight....there are 3 commonly used bullets to shoot with a sabot in the Pac-Nor .45 yes? The 195 Barnes,SST and the XTP? All in .40 cal of course. And the Barnes and SST are having consisitancy issues..yes? So that is leaving one solid performer in the XTP. What are the top 3 sabotless bullets?That is the top 3 that require the least amount of effort to size and shoot?
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Post by Dave W on Sept 25, 2010 20:31:40 GMT -5
In my gun, the Parker BE's are the gold standard, I compare everything I shoot to them. 300XTP is excellent at 100yds but tumbles at 200yds, but shoots good to 200yds in Harleys gun. Never cared enough to figure out why.
The 250XTP shows good accuracy to 200 but again never really interested me.
300SST is plenty good enough to 250 for deer 1.5MOA, but the fact I have not gotten Parker like accuracy made me throw in the towel for now.
250 FTX has shown signs of coming around but I have not shot the new load enough to give an honest opinion.
Got some .458 Rems sized but have not gotten serious with them yet. They will take more dies to get down to size but they are accurate in Smokeeters gun.
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Post by tar12 on Sept 25, 2010 20:37:45 GMT -5
Ooops! I accidently deleted you post Deadon...sorry bout that.I posed this question as it seems the choices for shooting saboted are getting slim. I am not crazy about resizing and knurling.
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Post by deadon on Sept 25, 2010 20:39:20 GMT -5
Let me get this straight....there are 3 commonly used bullets to shoot with a sabot in the Pac-Nor .45 yes? The 195 Barnes,SST and the XTP? All in .40 cal of course. And the Barnes and SST are having consisitancy issues..yes? So that is leaving one solid performer in the XTP. What are the top 3 sabotless bullets?That is the top 3 that require the least amount of effort to size and shoot? I smell a can of worms Rusty
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Post by Dave W on Sept 25, 2010 20:43:57 GMT -5
Ooops! I accidently deleted you post Deadon...sorry bout that.I posed this question as it seems the choices for shooting saboted are getting slim. I am not crazy about resizing and knurling. Probably not for everybody and you still deal with the same recoil as a .50, but there are sooooo many choices to experiment with. ;D
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Post by deadon on Sept 25, 2010 20:45:31 GMT -5
Ooops! I accidently deleted you post Deadon...sorry bout that.I posed this question as it seems the choices for shooting saboted are getting slim. I am not crazy about resizing and knurling. Me either, very unforgiving. Great thread. I am all ears. Rusty
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Post by tar12 on Sept 25, 2010 20:50:59 GMT -5
So many choices in the .45 realm but not so many in the .40 cal arena. I bought KerryBs Pac-Nor .45 barrel and really wanted to go the .40 cal bullet route but,if I must,I will go sabotless. I may just have to explore some as well...
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Post by tar12 on Sept 25, 2010 21:06:52 GMT -5
Has anyone tried the jacketed Traditional hunter from Parker in .45 in 180 grn and 200?
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Post by Dave W on Sept 25, 2010 21:13:42 GMT -5
I don't recall any reports about them but they probably have a nice flat base like the BE's. I think Marty(Bigmoose) said they will make them without the fluid in the nose to cut down on fragmentation. Woops, I was thinking of the Hydracon.
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Post by boarhog on Sept 25, 2010 23:50:48 GMT -5
I have been playing with sabotless some in my 45, and have shot a few decent groups, but still don't have the sizing quite right. A few days ago, I ordered a .450 sizing die from Lee. Hopefully I can polish it out to the perfect size. .451 is too large, unless I want to carry a Railroad hammer with me while hunting. BH
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Post by Al on Sept 26, 2010 4:00:36 GMT -5
Has anyone tried the jacketed Traditional hunter from Parker in .45 in 180 grn and 200? I was going to call Bob later this week on those, I'm assuming they are 40cal bullets thou. Parkers 275gr BE has been hands down more accurate then anything else I tried so far and really lay the smackdown on deer. Getting ready to play with some resized Remmy 300gr pretty quick, just looking for a cheaper plinking bullet.
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Post by tar12 on Sept 26, 2010 6:21:21 GMT -5
I have been playing with sabotless some in my 45, and have shot a few decent groups, but still don't have the sizing quite right. A few days ago, I ordered a .450 sizing die from Lee. Hopefully I can polish it out to the perfect size. .451 is too large, unless I want to carry a Railroad hammer with me while hunting. BH It is the sizing aspect that has turned so many new .45 shooters off from sabotless and on to shooting with sabots.It looks like the search for new flat based .40 cal fodder is on!
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Post by spaniel on Sept 26, 2010 6:22:12 GMT -5
Since when is the 200gr SW having consistency issues? I have been shooting them since they were released with no issues....the few groups out of my smokeless gun so far have been boringly and repeatably tight...
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Post by tar12 on Sept 26, 2010 6:23:36 GMT -5
"I was going to call Bob later this week on those, I'm assuming they are 40cal bullets thou."
I suspect your right Al.Let me know what you find out.
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Post by tar12 on Sept 26, 2010 6:28:46 GMT -5
Since when is the 200gr SW having consistency issues? I have been shooting them since they were released with no issues....the few groups out of my smokeless gun so far have been boringly and repeatably tight... Check out the Barnes Bullets thread.
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Sept 26, 2010 6:50:07 GMT -5
The sizing thing sure has me wanting to shy away as well. Back when I had more free time, I spent considerable time and money trying to do this in 50 cal without the hassle of dies, presses etc. I had limited successes and many failures.
Being the .50 is so versitile in terms of sabot and bullet options, it was just too easy to get the results I need as a hunter by staying with the .50. Additionally, I have mounds of bullets, sabots and powder that literally will last me decades. My bullet box weighs more then a car battery and I have at least 500 sabots. Switching would have many hidden costs...the least of which would be a pac-nor. (Unless it was a "Jeff" .50...hmmmm)
In .45, I am convinced that there is no perfect stock bullet that would work for everyone sabotless due to minor differences in bore size. AND, if there is was just ONE perfect bullet in terms of size, it may not be a perfect terminal performer for everyone.
In 40, it seems as if this issue is 10 fold in terms of sabot options and the perfect bullet option is basically uncharted waters.
It is obvious that some are very accutely aware of these challenges and have the time, knowledge and purchase (or already have) the equipment used to deal with the issue. The other 95% of us (like me) flounder and fall back on sabots. That means staying .50 and saboted or being handcuffed by a few choices in .45.....luckily those choices seem to work quite well and there is a choice of frangible as well as solid copper.
Don't get me wrong...the .45 is awesome and a new hunter/shooter would be well served with one starting from scratch. There are those few adequate sabot/bullet options and since they seem to work for most, a new guy may spend way less tinkering....if cost is an option....and be ready to go quickly. Then if he wanted, could try sabotless as well.
I'm fairly certain I will be a sabot shooter for the forseeable future
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Post by shooter on Sept 26, 2010 6:52:59 GMT -5
"I was going to call Bob later this week on those, I'm assuming they are 40cal bullets thou." I suspect your right Al.Let me know what you find out. Tar12,there are a few thing bob can do he can resize the 250 or 275 parker bullets I think. They came out to 448 with a 449 band on it and the other one was 449 with a 450 band.I had him resize some 275 try and all I need to do is run them across the file about 10 time.I still have to try them I don't no how there going to shoot yet.
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Post by Al on Sept 26, 2010 7:06:48 GMT -5
This is a 275gr BE Bob bumped up to .453ish for me by rolling the 3 rings into it, then I resize it to a snugish .4515 to fit my bore. Was up on Bad Bulls site, looks like Roger cuts his bands in, I'm assuming so it's easier to engrave the rifling on his guns??
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Post by zakjak221 on Sept 26, 2010 7:08:55 GMT -5
Wilms, Well said, and I agree. I ordered a "Jeff Spec" Pacnor about a month ago for the same reasons. Not only that,Illinois has a min. 45 cal. restriction for deer & all my favorite bullets-300 gr BO,Rem.'s,Speer GD's,Horn. XTP's will work and are tried and proven bullets. As you said-for now I'll live with the sabots. Mark
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Post by chuck41 on Sept 26, 2010 9:13:15 GMT -5
These are a few more suggestions courtesy of Al. (Thanks Al) I personally use primarily the XTPs (200gr .400" and the 210gr .410"). The second I resize to .400" and both are knurled a bit to shoot sabotless in my 40. The 200gr XTP .400" are very deadly on deer, but you will seldom experience a pass thru shot as they almost explode on impact at 2600fps. That's why I am going to the 210gr .410" with the pain of resizing them. The stronger construction of the .410" should make it a much better performer on deer sized game at our velocities. If I find a hog next week it will be my choice. Both XTPs shoot very accurately in my rifle (under 1" at 100 yd). Unfortunately I do not have ready access to a 200 or 300yd range, but I seldom get a shot at longer than about 120yd anyway. They should do about the same with sabots from a 45. With a good selection of sabots perhaps you might not even have to resize the .410s? (Might need an 400# gorilla to seat the bullet though. ;D)
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Post by spaniel on Sept 26, 2010 14:21:28 GMT -5
Since when is the 200gr SW having consistency issues? I have been shooting them since they were released with no issues....the few groups out of my smokeless gun so far have been boringly and repeatably tight... Check out the Barnes Bullets thread. OK, I'm not sure what was up with Dave's batch but I would not be as quick to condemn the bullet. I just looked through half a dozen boxes I have from 2 years old to 2 weeks old and I'm not seeing any issues. Bad bullets slip through now and then, I've found them occasionally in even premium hunting bullets.
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Post by deadon on Sept 26, 2010 14:51:53 GMT -5
Since when is the 200gr SW having consistency issues? I have been shooting them since they were released with no issues....the few groups out of my smokeless gun so far have been boringly and repeatably tight... Check out the Barnes Bullets thread. 45 Pacnor will be here Wednesday. The McGowan curse continues Rusty
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Post by moto357 on Sept 26, 2010 15:26:21 GMT -5
in my limited experience with shooting sabotless out of the 45 SMI i recently sold i found the 300xtp unbeatable at 100, as well as the 250xtp. i attribute this to the thinner jacket perhaps? the 300 Remington bullet resized also shot well, but also has a thinner jacket but i am not a fan of the deep hollow point. the thicker jacketed 325 ftx gave me mixed results, some not obturating at all and hitting the target sideways. I have another 20 or 30 of these left, and for some reason i want them to work.. so when the pac-nor gets here this winter that saga will continue... ps - tried both mmp and harvester sabots, harvester having best results. bullets both the 200 scorpion and SST, both good but best results with 200sst
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Post by Harley on Sept 26, 2010 17:08:05 GMT -5
Rick, there's no argument that shooting sabot-less requires more initial effort than sabots. As you already know, the one great advantage sabot-less enjoys is freedom from the restrictions of heat. Years ago, SW insisted that sabots were the weak link in smokeless ML'ing; their limitations are most apparent when the weather is HOT. This applies both to .50 and .45 calibers.
Working up a load for sabots, though, is of course straight-forward; the actual load development has been done, your only individual job is finding the sabot that performs best in your own rifle, and you don't need any new equipment.
Going to sabot-less requires investing in more stuff: a pair of files, two or three re-sizing dies (unless you buy one of the newer adjustable dies) and probably an arbor press. That's close to $200, total. Then, there's the learning curve in re-sizing bullets. The actual bullet re-sizing is not a big time consumer and I enjoy doing it. Your payoff is absolute reliability: You can pretty much forget about flyers or any other poor results. The shooting I've done in the past couple of years leads me to believe I can shoot MOA or better all day long at 400 yards (if the wind's not blowing).
It seems, from what I've read on this thread, that you can custom order the desired bullet diameter so that you wouldn't have to re-size your own bullets. In my case that would have meant slugging my barrel, then adding guestimates of diameter for a good bullet to barrel fit after fouling. In my barrel the best fit is obtained with a finished .4505" bullet. A .4500" bullet results in a 100 yd group that's three times as large, which makes the point of how critical bullet fit is in sabot-less shooting and how tricky it would be to obtain the correct diameter by ordering your bullets; unless, like Al notes, you are willing to re-size those re-sized bullets when you receive them.
Given your experience and ability, I'll really be looking forward to what you decide to do.
Harley
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Post by dave d. on Sept 26, 2010 18:04:35 GMT -5
Check out the Barnes Bullets thread. OK, I'm not sure what was up with Dave's batch but I would not be as quick to condemn the bullet. I just looked through half a dozen boxes I have from 2 years old to 2 weeks old and I'm not seeing any issues. Bad bullets slip through now and then, I've found them occasionally in even premium hunting bullets. :)Andy these are all new packs and I'm not even the one that noticed it. My buddy Ryan just bought 3 brand new packs of sw's and he was lucky to get a 1/4 of them that had flat bases. He went to the store today and looked at the ssts and they were the same. I wonder if hornady changed something? I have a new batch of 100 downstairs and if I get a chance this week I will see how many are good.
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Post by Richard on Sept 26, 2010 19:01:15 GMT -5
Three bullets that I have gotten some very good results with sabot less were the 200 and 225 gr. Hornady FTX and the 230 gr. XTP. Some fair to good groups were also shot with the 250 FTX. As Harley indicated, my Pac-Nor also likes the bullets to arrive at .4505". It also likes this number to be arrived at after sizing down to .448 and then file knurling and running thru a .451" die which leaves them at .4505". Because there is still some "knurling" effect still present, they go down the bore with reasonable pressure engraving the rifling. I have found that a new bullet sized down to .451" with no knurling? Needs a sledge hammer to get it down. If I knurl a .448 up to .451 without sizing, I can get it down but with some force. Personally, I cannot see why anyone would need a bullet heavier than 200 grains traveling above 2600 to 2700 (and above) fps, to anchor a whitetail or similar size critter? Richard
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Post by Chris Champion on Sept 26, 2010 19:22:08 GMT -5
Rick, You let the cat out of the bag... I spoke to Bob Parker about a year ago and asked him if he though his 200g Hydracon would hold up to 2700-2800 fps velocity on deer size game. He said he thought they would but did not know of anyone that was shooting them that fast. I never bought any because the Barnes and SST shot so good and the Parkers are more expensive. I'm ready for a bullet order but I'm saving about a dozen each SST and Barnes that I have now that have shot well up to this point so if my new orders end up like Daves SST's and shooters Barnes bullets I'll have something to fall back on this season. Next year I'll try the Parkers.
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Post by Chris Champion on Sept 26, 2010 19:36:12 GMT -5
I have been playing with sabotless some in my 45, and have shot a few decent groups, but still don't have the sizing quite right. A few days ago, I ordered a .450 sizing die from Lee. Hopefully I can polish it out to the perfect size. .451 is too large, unless I want to carry a Railroad hammer with me while hunting. BH It is the sizing aspect that has turned so many new .45 shooters off from sabotless and on to shooting with sabots.It looks like the search for new flat based .40 cal fodder is on! It was for me Rick. I've told you how much of a PIA it was with the Barnes 250 TEZ & 275 XPB trying to get them to shoot sabotless. I had to push them hard (275g @ 2600 + fps) to get them to shoot "decent." Sabot shooting was just too easy to mess with resizing AND SWABBING. Now, I never tried the 275 BE so I may have thought differently if I'd went that route first. A .451" (actually .4505") Barnes TEZ and XPB slide down my barrel with minimum pressure. My barrel is bigger than most everyone elses though. It came from the special order "high side of the tolerance" batch that RB got from Pacnor with the idea that it would be easier to shoot sabotless with less fuss with sizing. If this SST & Barnes "potential issue" is ongoing then I may revisit sabotless. After shooting the 200g bullets at 2700+ fps going back to shooting 275g bullets at 2500 fps would be a bummer.
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Post by spaniel on Sept 26, 2010 20:14:27 GMT -5
OK, I'm not sure what was up with Dave's batch but I would not be as quick to condemn the bullet. I just looked through half a dozen boxes I have from 2 years old to 2 weeks old and I'm not seeing any issues. Bad bullets slip through now and then, I've found them occasionally in even premium hunting bullets. :)Andy these are all new packs and I'm not even the one that noticed it. My buddy Ryan just bought 3 brand new packs of sw's and he was lucky to get a 1/4 of them that had flat bases. He went to the store today and looked at the ssts and they were the same. I wonder if hornady changed something? I have a new batch of 100 downstairs and if I get a chance this week I will see how many are good. Guess I'll be a little conservative burning through my current stock before hunting season. I'll have to go to the store and see if I see the same thing, I bought a pack a few weeks ago and just checked it and it is ok....
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Post by Dave W on Sept 26, 2010 21:17:33 GMT -5
OK, I'm not sure what was up with Dave's batch but I would not be as quick to condemn the bullet. I just looked through half a dozen boxes I have from 2 years old to 2 weeks old and I'm not seeing any issues. Bad bullets slip through now and then, I've found them occasionally in even premium hunting bullets. :)Andy these are all new packs and I'm not even the one that noticed it. My buddy Ryan just bought 3 brand new packs of sw's and he was lucky to get a 1/4 of them that had flat bases. He went to the store today and looked at the ssts and they were the same. I wonder if hornady changed something? I have a new batch of 100 downstairs and if I get a chance this week I will see how many are good. Have 10 SST's left from the pack I bought at Cabelas last week, all 10 have the large radius.
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