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Post by fishhawk on Feb 5, 2011 21:42:11 GMT -5
I see no problem with cutting the last projection off the tip to avoid another cut in the barrel. This would also increase the surface area of the sealing shoulder on the plug and barrel. The only downfall is non mechanical types modifying their own plug properly. Since Savage-barrels.com wants the plug and are seeking their own source, maybe they can do this easy modification. If not I have no real problem sticking with the stock plug to avoid confusion.
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Post by alphaburnt on Feb 5, 2011 21:45:34 GMT -5
Ss, I felt like I was opening up an old hashed out argument and did not mean to. That is why I was sorry. No problem.
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Post by smokeless77 on Feb 5, 2011 22:43:06 GMT -5
I see no problem with cutting the last projection off the tip to avoid another cut in the barrel. This would also increase the surface area of the sealing shoulder on the plug and barrel. The only downfall is non mechanical types modifying their own plug properly. Since Savage-barrels.com wants the plug and are seeking their own source, maybe they can do this easy modification. If not I have no real problem sticking with the stock plug to avoid confusion. I was also thinking later on down the road If you come across a different B/P design, You would only have the single sealing shoulder without the extra cut in the barrel, making it much simpler for plug design. John
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Post by Savage Shooter on Feb 6, 2011 9:47:01 GMT -5
Maybe Edge will come in and help here but having the "extra" corners for pressure to go around is a plus.
The way I remember someone here back when, determined the factory plugs additional shoulder was a good thing.
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Post by fishhawk on Feb 6, 2011 9:58:42 GMT -5
The "extra corner" to go around did cross my mind. I don't have a problem with the extra cut in the .45 and under barrels if savage-barrels don't mind making it. I don't know if they are doing individual cuts for the regular shoulder, and the nose clearance cut or have a tool that does both at once. If they have or make a tool, it would cost them no more time.
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Post by Dave W on Feb 6, 2011 11:00:04 GMT -5
No way of measuring this just, the "eye test". I use oil on the plug threads and I would say there is more crud on the plug threads when I tear the gun down on my SMI .45 plug "without the snout", than there is on my Savage with the snout.
No idea if one is better than the other at minimizing gas flow to the threads., just an observation, unproven at that.
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Post by Al on Feb 6, 2011 11:12:53 GMT -5
if the sealing shoulder is not square to the threads, it will leak and cause gas cutting, same goes for the plug, threads have to be square to the face of it.
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Post by Jon on Feb 6, 2011 17:23:16 GMT -5
You have to remember If you look at the SMI plug the shoulder is on the back of the plug. I've never heard of a problem with a SMI plug. Just MYO Weather the seal is on the back of the plug ore the front The threads are going to see some pressure. I think the SMI plug is well thought out and has proven too work well. If I gave a problem at all with it is I got spoiled with the Savage where I don't have to find a way to prime it and need a tool to deprime.
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Post by ratsnakeboogy on Feb 7, 2011 8:27:18 GMT -5
Ok a lot of info here, so much in fact I'm getting confused again(not that hard for me). In regards to the 700ML with hunter's conversion, what's the best compromise between weight and safety? fishhawk, maybe you just need to tell me what contour to order, and what breechplug to buy and send. If I had the money to keep you in business, I'd just send all my stuff to you.
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Post by fishhawk on Feb 7, 2011 10:35:59 GMT -5
I think we need to wait and see if savage-barrels.com accepts my proposed contour, and state a standard breechplug. This way they can name a barrel something like "Dougs #1 700ML". This could state 700ML, contour Dougs #1, standard Savage hex breechplug. Hopefully to simplify ordering especially if they start stocking a breechplug.
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Post by ratsnakeboogy on Feb 7, 2011 11:01:11 GMT -5
Excellent, can't wait!
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Post by edge on Feb 7, 2011 12:10:55 GMT -5
IMO, the last step on the breechplug is very important!
In reality the breechplug could be installed and not even tight and it will contain a fair amount of pressure due to that step. If it is not there and have anything short of a perfect seal at the face then the main pressure will be on the 5/8 diameter and not on the bore diameter ( either 0.510 or 0.458 depending on caliber ).
edge.
PS if you don't want to cut the step in the barrel then modify the BP by cutting down the diameter so it will fit in the bore.
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Post by ratsnakeboogy on Feb 7, 2011 12:32:19 GMT -5
IMO, the last step on the breechplug is very important! In reality the breechplug could be installed and not even tight and it will contain a fair amount of pressure due to that step. If it is not there and have anything short of a perfect seal at the face then the main pressure will be on the 5/8 diameter and not on the bore diameter ( either 0.510 or 0.458 depending on caliber ). edge. PS if you don't want to cut the step in the barrel then modify the BP by cutting down the diameter so it will fit in the bore.[/color] I think this is what hunter has done for his conversion for the Rem700ml .45. He said he had to have the .50 plug turned down so the projection would go in the barrel.
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Post by fishhawk on Feb 7, 2011 13:13:31 GMT -5
I would have no problem turning down the diameter of the nose with .45. But if someone wanted a .40 barrel, that would leave a pretty thin edge at the top of the tapered vent seat. Would this erode quicker? If so what does it hurt to leave the Savage plug alone, and bore that small extra step in the .45 and under barrels for a standardized barrel design?
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Post by Jon on Feb 7, 2011 13:17:56 GMT -5
Fiahhawk. +1
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Post by Savage Shooter on Feb 7, 2011 14:00:25 GMT -5
what does it hurt to leave the Savage plug alone, and bore that small extra step in the .45 and under barrels for a standardized barrel design? Exactly, then they bore for the "standard versions" modular all the same regardless of caliber.
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Post by edge on Feb 7, 2011 14:47:08 GMT -5
I would have no problem turning down the diameter of the nose with .45. But if someone wanted a .40 barrel, that would leave a pretty thin edge at the top of the tapered vent seat. Would this erode quicker? If so what does it hurt to leave the Savage plug alone, and bore that small extra step in the .45 and under barrels for a standardized barrel design? I wouldn't leave a sharp edge, but I would not expect any issues with cutting it down. The Vent liner may sit slightly proud in a 40 caliber but that is not a problem either. edge.
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Post by alphaburnt on Feb 8, 2011 15:36:00 GMT -5
hey savage barrel, any word on the 1:22 or 1:24 twist with 8 land and grooves?
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Post by fishhawk on Feb 8, 2011 15:52:29 GMT -5
Alphaburnt, check reply #61
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Post by hoz on Feb 8, 2011 17:23:04 GMT -5
Alpha,
I talked with Jon from savage-barrels and he said the button was on order for the 8 groove 1 in 22. Said anywhere from 3-6 weeks to get the button.
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Post by alphaburnt on Feb 9, 2011 2:21:20 GMT -5
Yea, just impatient...
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Post by tar12 on Feb 9, 2011 4:15:05 GMT -5
Alpha, I talked with Jon from savage-barrels and he said the button was on order for the 8 groove 1 in 22. Said anywhere from 3-6 weeks to get the button. Wonderful!
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Post by fishhawk on Feb 9, 2011 11:11:51 GMT -5
Here is a copy of an e-mail sent to savage-barrels.com on monday proprosing a standard to build one contour to use on 700MLs: This e-mail is intended for the person that posted as savagebarrels on Dougs message boards, You posted that you were looking for proposed barrel contour for the 700MLs. My name is Greg Hawk, I go by fishhawk on the board. We have been discussing contours and a standard for a breech plug to use for a somewhat standardized combination to make ordering easy. In anything I say, please don't feel that I disrespect your knowledge, I want to make sure you know what we know. Maybe before reading any farther you may want to read all the posts after your last one if you haven't already. Especially read my reply #79. I want to be sure you understand that several of the long term members want to be sure everyone understands the assumption we are making that an accidental double load could breech a barrel of inadequate dimensions. Maybe you or someone else can say what a factory 700ML contour will endure. Hopefully my proposed "safer" contour in reply #79 makes sense to you. I intended this to be as safe as the #7 Pacnors that have been double loaded and only bulged. This contour also will stay within the borders of a factory stocks forearm with some sanding to fit. The QLA seems to have some interest, maybe offer it as an option. I would likely prefer just to have the ends of the lands beveled to remove the sharp edge that would shave material from the sabot. They should all have at least the bevel. Now the breech plug, consensus is leaning towards using the standard Savage breech plug. With .45 and under barrels an extra cut is needed to make room for the tip where the ventliner lives. Most seem to accept this extra cut to use an unmodified breech plug. Some may not, maybe they can order a special cut to accept their provided breech plug? We are currently ordering Pacnors called the DD 700ML that use a modified (longer) bolt kit, a 3/16" recoil lug, and the Savage breech plug. This combination puts the tip of the breech plug just past the recoil lug to get the pressure into the meat of the barrel. Pacnor builds this to a less than zero headspace so the buyer can install and headspace his own barrel by reducing the length of the longer than needed primer pocket. With this design you wont have to headspace everyone, only the ones that want you to. As far as a source for the Savage breech plug, the only sources I'm aware of are Savage, and randywakeman.com. Maybe you can post a barrel with the parameters I've listed on our site and we'll watch to see if it passes scrutiny? Thank You, Greg Hawk No response yet at the time of this post.
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Post by alphaburnt on Feb 10, 2011 4:17:06 GMT -5
This new development of a standardized contour, possibilities of an 8 L/G 1:22 twist and making sure everything is compatible has me on standby mode waiting. I was ready to order, but I am holding off now til everything gets hashed out. I too am eager to try Savage barrels for my Rem 700ML conversion. Of late I feel like that old Johnny Cash song, snagging a scope here, breechplug there, rings somewhere else, then bases and aftermarket stock...One piece at a time... However, this is costing me wayyy more than Ol Johnny's special project!
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Post by fishhawk on Feb 10, 2011 9:42:41 GMT -5
I still haven't heard a response to my e-mail. I'll try calling them today.
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Post by fishhawk on Feb 10, 2011 17:10:34 GMT -5
Ok, I just got off the phone with John at savage-barrels .com. He had not seen the posts that were made since he last posted, or read my email. We had a great conversation and he is going to read up on all that was posted and my e-mail. He told me he would like to probably get McGowans head gunsmith to get with me so everything is clear to all involved. He may post something here or contact me. I'll let you all know asap.
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Post by jims on Feb 10, 2011 19:32:57 GMT -5
Fishhawk: Thanks for the information.
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Post by rossman40 on Feb 11, 2011 10:06:22 GMT -5
One of the problems I have seen from making bore guides is that there is a big difference between a factory Savage barrel and a Pacnor in the breechplug area. It seems Savage starts out with a .625" bore and then cuts the threads with a tap. Maybe ease of manufacturing, one cut with a end mill and then follow it with the tap, two steps. I think Pacnor reversed engineered from the plug and starts with a .615" bore and then cuts the threads with a internal thread bar. If you use a boring bar for the bore and the the threading bar you would probly have to make at least 3 passes with each. I use to cut the snout on my bore guides to .620" and it would fit a factory barrel but that is too big to fit a Pacnor so I have had to trim them down to .610" or less.
Instead of going from the plug measurements I urge the aftermarket barrel guys to measure a couple of factory barrels and start from there. As far as the extra clearance with the Savage set-up it is the same as the vent, pressure over time. It doesn't have to be a milspec tight fit. It takes time to bring the volume up to chamber pressure and before that happens the pressure is already coming down.
A lot of guys slam the factory breechplug design but when you look at it from all the angles the design is some pretty good engineering for something so simple.
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Post by fishhawk on Feb 11, 2011 15:43:20 GMT -5
Ken, when I talked to John yesterday, I told him that anything he read posted by you was good as gold. I had planned in my next dicussion with them to offer sending my factory 10ML-II barrel and a new hex head breech plug to them. I'll tell them to check your post here on cutting and threading for the plug. I haven't heard from them today.
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Post by fishhawk on Feb 15, 2011 23:38:45 GMT -5
I've still heard nothing yet.
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