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Post by rangeball on Feb 13, 2009 12:49:49 GMT -5
In the BO thread, it was stated that many have not found the same accuracy with .458 solid copper bullets versus .458 jacketed lead core bullets of the same weight. The current barnes .458 line up all have grooves in the bearing surface, which has me wondering if the sabot is deforming into these grooves and preventing clean separation, which leads me to wonder- To anyone that has shot solid copper .458 bullets and not found the accuracy as good as a lead core jacketed .458 of the same weight, did the solid copper have a smooth bearing surface or was it grooved? Thanks  |
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Post by rangeball on Feb 13, 2009 14:25:13 GMT -5
As an aside, is the "lead core jacketed shoots more accurate than solid copper" sentiment extended to all diameter bullets we use?
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Post by Dave W on Feb 13, 2009 15:53:42 GMT -5
IIRC You are getting a SMI with a Douglas barrel and a different twist than what most of us shoot, not sure how comparable results are going to be.
Saying that. The .451 Barnes bullets 250TMZ, 290TMZ, 245 SF, 275 XPB, 250 TEZ, none have shot as well as jacketed bullets at 200yds, at a 100yds all shot well, the 250 TEZ being the best at 200yds.
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Post by rangeball on Feb 13, 2009 16:08:54 GMT -5
Dave, yes, SMI douglas .50 with 1:22 twist. Was your SMI the standard 1:36? I wonder if the all copper barnes being longer than same weight jacketed bullets had then on the edge of stability from the 1:36? Seems that way seeing the shorter/lighter of the bunch shot best. Trying to be optimistic here |
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Post by rossman40 on Feb 13, 2009 18:33:38 GMT -5
It doesn't take much to get lead to obturate and I think that is a key to accuracy of any bullet in a sabot. The trick with solids out of a ML in a sabot is a good smack in the rear to get them started. With a centerfire they are basically groove diameter or close and you only have to obturate the base a bit for a gas check. In a sabot you may get the base obturated but if you have a loose fit for the rest of the bullet it may not exit very stable. So you do the knurling trick so you can start off with a tight of fit as possible. The grooves of the TSX cut down on land engagement to decrease drag but in the sabot the grooves may act like a accordion.
As far as rifle twist rate IIRC Tony Knight started out 1:48 and found quickly that with sabots that didn't work and went with 1:32. Then with expansion of the Red-Hot bullet line they had to drop again to 1:28. Weight isn't the factor but actual length is, IIRC a all copper bullet will be like 25% longer then a lead bullet of the same weight.
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Post by Dave W on Feb 13, 2009 21:57:05 GMT -5
Dave, yes, SMI douglas .50 with 1:22 twist. Was your SMI the standard 1:36? I wonder if the all copper barnes being longer than same weight jacketed bullets had then on the edge of stability from the 1:36? Seems that way seeing the shorter/lighter of the bunch shot best. Trying to be optimistic here I was referring to my experiences with Barnes in the Savage, sorry for the confusion. |
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Post by rbinar on Feb 14, 2009 6:57:47 GMT -5
I'm not a great believer in all copper bullets for deer. I think they are wonderful on bigger game. For what ever reason (and I mean that because I don't have a clue) I have noticed sabots take a beating as compaired to a lead core bullet. That may have a lot to do with the difficulty some have in getting them going in their 10ML.
This is yet another reason to adopt the sabot-less approach. I've had great success with flat base all copper bullets in a 45 caliber sabot-less rifle. When sized correctly they really work.
Martin Katz' post of what the 290 TEZ does to a 1600lb moose should be all one needs to be convinced of how tough they are, but besides that I've shot them into a pea gravel hill and found them still retaining 85% weight.
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Post by dougedwards on Feb 14, 2009 9:53:56 GMT -5
I am wondering if higher pressure spikes might promote obturation of an all copper bullet. I was never able to get consistent accuracy shooting the long 290 gr TMZ using slower burning powders. I eventually tried duplexing with 18/42 of SR4759/Reloder7 before I was able to be comfortable with the accuracy of that particular copper bullet. However the accuracy never was outstanding.....just better.
Doug
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Post by smokeless77 on Feb 14, 2009 15:47:12 GMT -5
Rbinar, I've been shooting the barnes 275grn xpb 451" cannelured, sabotless in my 45. They seem to shoot really good. I picked up some 200's didn't get time to try them yet.
john
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Post by tcmech on Feb 15, 2009 21:36:41 GMT -5
I have never shot a solid copper bullet out of the savage, but I was really disappointed with the performance of the solid copper saboted slugs I have used in my shotguns. The performance on deer and feral pigs was poor at best in my opinion.
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Post by Rifleman on Feb 16, 2009 2:17:49 GMT -5
Tcmech one thing to consider though is that there is a significant difference in velocity between an all copper shotgun slug at 1800-2000 fps and a typical 50 cal Savage load at 2300 plus.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2009 21:57:26 GMT -5
I used 250 tmzs with 10x @ 2500 fps for two seasons before the BO craze this year, if there is a better deer killer out there I would have to see it. as far as accuracy goes it could be better, if the TEZ is better in the accuracy dept it will be a very good choice. I plan on sizing both 250s & 290s in the 45 and see what happens with accuracy, maybe they will work well, time will tell.
Surely between the TEZs. saboted 195s and parkers some, or if im lucky, all will work well....... looking forward to some range reports from Richard while I patiently wait, but for anyone out there that can get any of the barnes all coppers to shoot they are lights out on anything that walks on four legs.......Bill
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