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Post by dougedwards on May 1, 2010 21:48:59 GMT -5
During the last 15 years there has been a focused attempt by the manufacturers of compound bows to produce the speediest bows possible and they all compare the speeds of their respective bows according to a method determined by the International Bowhunting Organization (IBO). Using a 350 grain arrow with a compound bow of 70 lb draw weight and a draw length of 30", each manufacturer will shoot an arrow through a chronograph and record the results. Of course, in an attempt to shoot the arrow as fast as possible they do this with nothing on the string and not even vanes on the arrow since the POI of the arrow is of no consequence.
It seems that all choices in archery involve some trade offs. I recently sold a Mathews Monster speed bow and it was properly named as at 70 lbs that thing was a monster to draw. However, the impact of arrow speed to the bowhunter can't be diminished because most hunters choose much heavier arrows than target archers. An arrow in excess of 400 grains (with broadhead) produces less noise at release, less vibration and deeper penetration than a 330-350 grain arrow being propelled by the same compound bow. All attractive attributes to the bowhunter but at a cost of a significant amount of speed. From 0-25 yards that is usually not much of an issue. But beyond 25 yards, trajectory can be the difference between shooting or just watching.
Many a whitetail have fallen to the ground as a direct result of arrows traveling less than 220 fps. In the past penetration wasn't nearly as much of an issue as many of the aluminum arrows were in excess of 500 grains and some even more than 600 grains. But pushing such heavy arrows gave the hunter no option but to restrict his range to 25-30 yards.
Today we have options. Some bow/arrow combinations are shooting so fast that a single pin sight is used from 5-30 yards. Add a slider to that sight and 70-80 yard accuracy can be attained quite easily. Increased shooting distance is not the only benefit experienced from compound bows shooting 320-350 fps (IBO). I like the fact that the arrow has a flatter trajectory being thrusted from a faster bow. This is a biiiiiiiig deal for those of us who hunt in areas of heavy foilage.
No, you don't need to shoot an arrow 330 fps to effectively harvest whitetails with a bow. But a faster bow can be such an advantage when possible target range might be in excess of 20-25 yards. Since bowhunters choose heavier arrows than target archers, the speed of the bow becomes even more of an issue for a clean harvest.
Of course, none of this helps if you have to struggle to draw and hold the bow. Accuracy still reigns supreme as a requirement for a successful bow hunt.
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Post by ET on May 1, 2010 23:02:56 GMT -5
Doug
I enjoyed reading that and understood what was expressed.
Yes most deer are shot at 20-25yds on the average.
Here too like in rifles speed is considered the number one attraction. And after reading a few articles on the subject 400fps is not far away.
Personally speed is not the deciding factor for me but will take some extra if I can maintain accuracy. Even though I’m still sort of behind the times with aluminum arrows I am now leaning in the direction of a lighter arrow and tip combination than I originally was going to use. But will they shoot good for me, is what needs to be discovered.
Yes the technology today has really advanced since I last looked into Archery and am amazed at what is available for equipment.
When I go into an Archery Shop I now feel like a kid in a candy store having to choose the type and candy flavor. ;D
Ed
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Post by huntingmike on May 2, 2010 7:53:40 GMT -5
Accurate speed can make up for some misjudged distances. With the slower arrows of old a 2'-3' mistake in distance ended up in a miss. With the 350' speed of my bolts I can actually hold center to high on a deer at 30 yards with the 20 yard + and still have a kill zone shot. I just bought the new fast string and it is much faster than the original string. I can not wait to to shoot it through a crony to see how fast it is now. It may take some getting use to as the 40 dot is now 45 the 50 dot is 58 if I remember correctly.
Mike
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Post by lunchbox on May 2, 2010 13:10:41 GMT -5
huntingmike. What are you shooting that has a fast string on it? Sounds kinda neet to me. lol
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Post by dougedwards on May 2, 2010 14:19:25 GMT -5
Doug Yes most deer are shot at 20-25yds on the average. Ed <snip> I believe that this statement is applicable only because bow hunters have for years told themselves that shots beyond a 25 yard range was risky and non-ethical. With todays speedier bows a bow hunter is able to cover a soy bean field and extend his range to 40-50 yards and further. Of course, there will always be those who will cry foul and maintain that it is unethical to fire arrows at whitetails at those distances. Doug |
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Post by ET on May 2, 2010 23:30:03 GMT -5
Doug
Part of that may be true when deer hunting with bows 1st started. Some articles I read basically stated most deer where shot 20-25yds on the average. I don’t recall any mention of shooting over 25-yds as foul or unethical.
I have no problems of a good shot with enough killing power that can go beyond 25-yds either. I agree also that additional velocity can really aid in doing this.
Where it becomes unethical to me is a person going after a faster bow/arrow combination thinking it will improve his shooting simply because of the stated flatter trajectory and will give him a chance at longer distances. Believe me when I say there are still a lot of those shooters/hunters with this mentality around of better equipment will take care of problems.
Now you put this extra velocity in a good shooters hand and you’re right it will give him an additional advantage of longer distance. He learns about his equipment and gets the best he can out of it. But he also will know his limitations or any weakness before taking that shot through lots of practice.
Yes new advances such as velocity increase to give the bow shooter flatter trajectory and longer killing range is good to have if used properly when hunting.
Ed
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Post by huntingmike on May 3, 2010 14:59:17 GMT -5
huntingmike. What are you shooting that has a fast string on it? Sounds kinda neet to me. lol Pardon me for not being accurate. I shoot an excalibur exomax. It was equipped with a fast flight string (350' per second). The new strings are called "Flemish Dyna Flight " It gives the bolt a lot more speed. Mike |
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Post by dougedwards on Jun 21, 2010 23:42:58 GMT -5
I am hoping to re-visit this subject of speed vs penetration capability as it refers only to hunting arrows. It is getting to be crunch time as by August I will be shooting only one type of arrow tipped with broadheads for the rest of the season. Up till now I have been experimenting with arrows from 320-460 grains from almost all of the manufacturers and field tips.
Before I can start broadhead tuning I will have to settle on an arrow and the Victory HV 350s have proven to be at least as accurate as anything that I have shot at 311 fps with 11% FOC. However these arrows only weigh 340 grains and that is with lighted nocks at 21 grains. These arrows from my Elite GTO produce 73 lbs of Kinetic Energy from the bow and over 53 lbs at 70 yards.
My question is....how much is over-kill? How much KE does it really take to penetrate the scapula of a large whitetail? And if we choose to shoot heavier arrows only because of the increased KE they produce are we not only making adjustments for a forcasted badly placed shot? And at the expense of the heavier arrow getting to the animal slower and with more drop in trajectory.
I am scratching my head trying to make the most effective decision and I am hoping that some of you might help me out with your input.
Doug
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Post by Harley on Jun 22, 2010 7:44:59 GMT -5
Doug, in one way or another we've been kicking this around for awhile, and I've about decided it really doesn't deserve too much worry: Just don't shoot into bone (especially the scapula) and you will be okay at almost any distance and with almost any arrow that is correctly spined for your setup. If you do hit bone, all bets are off no matter how heavy the arrow; it may or may not penetrate.
1. KE is NOT the relevant measure; Momentum is. KE refers to the hydrostatic damage that a firearm projectile inflicts. Broadheads kill by cutting, not hydrostatic damage; so, you are looking for a measure of penetration. That measure is Momentum, which depends on the velocity at the point of impact times the mass of the arrow divided by a constant. You can see by that formula that velocity is important, but no more so than the total weight of the projectile. It follows, then, (see #3, below) that a heavier (and slower) arrow will penetrate deeper than a lighter arrow; but, unless you are shooting at extreme distances it will make no difference in the final outcome on whitetail deer. I'd expect complete penetration from any correctly spined arrow and sharp broadhead.
2. It's true that the faster arrow is more forgiving of errors in range estimation, but for the majority of shots, on feeding or slow-moving deer, you have time to use your range finder. Couple the range finder with a fast bow and you've largely removed the "sighting" advantage of a light arrow except, again, at great distances.
3. The heavier arrow will always penetrate deeper than the lighter arrow AT THE SAME VELOCITY, and even though the lighter arrow will almost always be traveling at a higher velocity the difference in that velocity will almost never be enough to offset the advantage of the heavier arrow. This is because Newton's Law of Motion dictates "an equal and opposite reaction" to that speed. In other words, the deer's flesh resists penetration and the faster the arrow the greater the resistance.
4. The heavier arrow is probably more durable.
So, what's the conclusion? I'd say it's a fairly even trade-off between heavy and light arrows if we're considering whitetail deer. For myself, I've decided - for no good reason - to shoot the lighter arrow. Just last night, though, I ran into #4 in my list: I hit my Glendale buck low, and the arrow penetrated to one of the metal tubes that support it. The impact drove the field tip and the insert into the shaft, splitting it even though it was epoxied in place. Maybe a heavier shaft would have withstood the shock.
Harley
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Post by dougedwards on Jun 22, 2010 12:56:04 GMT -5
Doug, in one way or another we've been kicking this around for awhile, and I've about decided it really doesn't deserve too much worry: Just don't shoot into bone (especially the scapula) and you will be okay at almost any distance and with almost any arrow that is correctly spined for your setup. If you do hit bone, all bets are off no matter how heavy the arrow; it may or may not penetrate. 1. KE is NOT the relevant measure; Momentum is. KE refers to the hydrostatic damage that a firearm projectile inflicts. Broadheads kill by cutting, not hydrostatic damage; so, you are looking for a measure of penetration. That measure is Momentum, which depends on the velocity at the point of impact times the mass of the arrow divided by a constant. You can see by that formula that velocity is important, but no more so than the total weight of the projectile. It follows, then, (see #3, below) that a heavier (and slower) arrow will penetrate deeper than a lighter arrow; but, unless you are shooting at extreme distances it will make no difference in the final outcome on whitetail deer. I'd expect complete penetration from any correctly spined arrow and sharp broadhead. That's true but how much momentum is enough? Does it matter how deeply the arrow penetrates the ground after pass through?2. It's true that the faster arrow is more forgiving of errors in range estimation, but for the majority of shots, on feeding or slow-moving deer, you have time to use your range finder. Couple the range finder with a fast bow and you've largely removed the "sighting" advantage of a light arrow except, again, at great distances. It seems to me that the choice of a heavier arrow is a concession that not all shots are able to be well placed thus giving the deer more time to react since we can't depend on our arrows reaching their intended destination due to the whitetails reaction to the sound of the shot. From my set-up my 340 grain arrows bury into the target in about 3/10ths of a second at 30 yards but the sound of the release is able to reach the deer's hearing in less than 1/10th of a second. Why are we choosing a heavier arrow so that it will reach the deer later rather than sooner? Are we not conceding that a well placed shot is not always a rational option? I do know that ranging a deer with a range finder is not always a rational option. I sometimes hunt in thick forage adjacent to trails and sometimes never even hear the deer coming. It is see it, range it in my head, decide if I am able to make a reasonably well placed shot to the vitals, pull, aim, release in a matter of seconds sometimes. 3. The heavier arrow will always penetrate deeper than the lighter arrow AT THE SAME VELOCITY, and even though the lighter arrow will almost always be traveling at a higher velocity the difference in that velocity will almost never be enough to offset the advantage of the heavier arrow. This is because Newton's Law of Motion dictates "an equal and opposite reaction" to that speed. In other words, the deer's flesh resists penetration and the faster the arrow the greater the resistance. If the recommended KE to hunt whitetail deer is 25-55 lbs then why would the hunter be concerned if he shoots a 340 grain arrow producing 73 lbs at zero yards and 60 lbs at 70 yards? I know that KE is not momentum but I challenge you to find me a momentum chart showing a minimum for hunting any particular game animal. I can't find one.4. The heavier arrow is probably more durable. The heavier arrow will probably be more durable. It will also probably produce less of a "thump" sound at release. It also may shoot more accurately from a particular bow and be more forgiving. Also, maybe someone only wants to keep with shooting one type of arrow and hunts both whitetails and elk. All very good reasons to choose an arrow in excess of 400 grains.So, what's the conclusion? I'd say it's a fairly even trade-off between heavy and light arrows if we're considering whitetail deer. For myself, I've decided - for no good reason - to shoot the lighter arrow. Just last night, though, I ran into #4 in my list: I hit my Glendale buck low, and the arrow penetrated to one of the metal tubes that support it. The impact drove the field tip and the insert into the shaft, splitting it even though it was epoxied in place. Maybe a heavier shaft would have withstood the shock. Harley That is precisely why Trophy Ridge installs the outserts on their arrows.....to protect the shaft right behind the broadhead but most archers hate them because they are hard to pull from a target bag. I am only throwing some thoughts out there concerning this issue and wondering if some old concepts are still being embraced because old habits die hard. There was a time when even the fastest of compound bows only shot 225 fps and were not nearly as inherently accurately as they are today. If I was pretty confident that my prey was going to have time to react to my loud bow I would opt for the heaviest arrow that I could accurately shoot. Things change and if we have a desire to harvest whitetails as cleanly as possible so does our thinking have to change. The trade off of giving the deer more time to react while producing more of an arrow trajectory drop is not a viable option for me with only deeper arrow penetration as a savior of a badly placed shot. But as Bill O'Reilly says......I could be wrong 
Doug |
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Post by Harley on Jun 22, 2010 14:20:19 GMT -5
Point #1. I'm not referencing African game or even Elk, just whitetail deer; and, any modern compound bow of 50# or more matched with properly spined arrows and a sharp broadhead will produce enough momentum. Doug, you really answered the question, yourself, when you asked how far you want an arrow to stick in the ground after passing through the deer; the implication being that passing through is almost a given at reasonable distances.
2. I don't view the heavier arrow as a "concession" to poor shot placement. If poor shot placement means in the guts or a non-vital area or significant bone the result will be the same as shooting a lighter arrow - most likely a lost deer.
Since even the fastest bow/arrow combination falls short of the speed of sound the deer will hear the shot, more or less, depending on the quietness of your setup and the distance from the deer. This doesn't automatically mean a miss because not every deer reacts predictably. Some just keep feeding, some jerk their heads up, some crouch and go, etc. Sure, relatively speaking, we want the quietest, fastest setup; but, on an absolute level it isn't so clearcut. If the deer is at, say, 20 yards, it's not going to avoid even the noisiest arrow release. If it's significantly further away, it may not react at all.
If ranging a deer is not "always a rational option", then do what everyone should do, anyway. When you climb into your stand take multiple sightings all around you and repeat them until you can remember them. Of course, there will be times in heavy brush that a deer appears only momentarily and is gone. I'd probably argue that this is a deer that you shouldn't attempt to shoot, since by your own admission you are seeing the deer, mentally ranging it, making a quick decision, pulling, aiming and releasing --all "in a matter of seconds". For me, the exception to this scenario would be the sudden appearance of a deer within 20 yards; since I keep my slider set to 20 yards and have previously memorized points on the ground out to 20 yards, I'd take that shot.
3. Any arrow producing 60 ft. lbs at 70 yards would indeed be sufficient, even an overkill. As far as the challenge to produce a momentum chart, look at the program "OnTarget2-SFA". I'm not suggesting, though, that any particular momentum is critical. I was only pointing out that momentum is the relevant comparative measure when evaluating different arrows' suitability for long range penetration.
4. That's a lot of "maybe's", Doug. In those cases sure, go with the heavier arrow.
You say:
"The trade off of giving the deer more time to react while producing more of an arrow trajectory drop is not a viable option for me with only deeper arrow penetration as a savior of a badly placed shot." The point I've been trying to make is that NOTHING is a savior of a badly placed shot. As I just posted, "I don't view the heavier arrow as a 'concession' to poor shot placement. If poor shot placement means in the guts or a non-vital area or significant bone the result will be the same as shooting a lighter arrow - most likely a lost deer."
Finally, as I originally posted, I'm choosing the lighter, faster arrow for myself. It was only out of a sense of fairness that I weighed the theoretical advantages of a heavier, slower arrow. I believe, though, that at ranges that include 70 yards my own bow with my lightest arrows will be as effective on whitetail deer as at 20 yards. That doesn't mean I'd attempt a 70 yard shot. I can consistently hit a target at that distance, but don't have the confidence or "coolness under fire" to risk that more-than-likely poorly placed shot.
You started this latest exchange as a request for help in deciding whether to go light or heavy, but it seems you've already decided on "light". Me, too.
Harley
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Post by dougedwards on Jun 22, 2010 14:54:27 GMT -5
I have actually decided on an arrow about 20 times this year. This 340 gr Victory HV 350 just happens to shoot very accurately for me. I am wondering if there is any reason that I should shoot a heavier arrow such as the Carbon Express Maxima Hunter which would weigh in at about 385 grains if I could get it to shoot as accurately as the Victory arrows. The Trophy Ridge Blast arrows also shoot well but they are 430 grains with a 125 grain broadhead.
Also I can't tell the difference between these arrows of varying weights as far as sound produced at release. This used to be true for some of my older bows but this one seems to make the same sound with 340 grainers as it does with 400s.
I haven't made up my mind but I need to do so. I sometimes am able to do this by challenging thoughts and concepts. I may end up choosing a heavier arrow. I just don't want to make that choice based on wives tales or old concepts that no longer apply to our situation shooting extremely fast a quiet compound bows.
I am wondering if any of you crossbow shooters are concerned with arrow weight for hunting whitetail deer?
Doug
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Post by deadeye on Jun 22, 2010 15:41:21 GMT -5
in all honesty the answer probably lies in between for optimium penetration results as there are also many other factors also,about 10years ago my rotator was torn up & i could not stand any poundage but reached up for a fred bear kodiak recurve that just barely met the 35lbs indiana regulation. i think i elected a 2018 or something close,shot a does @ 22yds in standing corn,arrow penetrated just deep enough to do the job on a very well placed shot,my most pleasing archery accomplishment especially that was the only way i could hunt,i played w/1716's & such also. i have taken game(including elk) @ very long distance's with no wounds which i'd rather not go there on the distance part's. i do know of a bud that killed a doe lyinging in a fencerow shot perfectly placed @ 122yds & that is another story for later but involved a arrow on the heavy side also,returned later a couple of days to look for the missing arrow,we finally found it some 6-8ft(behind) under the leaves in a direct line behind her. i since then had the mentality a chevette traveling somewhat faster than a semi-if let off the gas which 1 would do the more damage especially downrange ;D doug-i do think you might be pushing the foc envelope w a 340 weighted by a 125gn point for great flight but i may be wrong, i tried 145's on a heavier shaft many moon's ago while shooting indoor competition- had to lighten the tip to score well. so i opted on the slightly heavy side arrows as my 90yd groundhog kill-lasered& witnessed by my pastor friend didnt survive the heavy arrow either ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Harley on Jun 22, 2010 15:49:09 GMT -5
Deadeye makes a good point about the 340 gn arrow and 125 gn broadhead, but you would probably get away with it if you use that heavy, lighted nock to move the FOC back a little. Not ideal, though.
I still think you're trying too hard; if the Victory shoots well for you, go with it.
Deadeye, did your rotator cuff heal? That's what's limiting me, right now. Surgery is not an option, but it hurts badly even at 50# draw weight. I still plan to shoot game at 60#, but am not looking forward to the draw.
Harley
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Post by dougedwards on Jun 22, 2010 16:16:41 GMT -5
Correction.....only the Trophy Ridge Blast is tipped with 125 gr tips because the lighted nocks were causing them to be too stiff according to the Pinwheel program. All other arrows have 100 grain tips.
Deadeye.........are you sure that you can see that far out there shooting at 100 + yards??
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Post by deadeye on Jun 22, 2010 21:06:38 GMT -5
harley,yes it healed after 4-5years,i dont think mine was torn as bad to need surgery so i layed low & it eventually healed,hope yours does too-hate that rocky gravel burning feeling.
doug-i am farsighted ;D//// the reason i intially chose to shoot long range archery was too push myself into a better shooter. if & when i missed out long&short the pocketbook rang hard,bent,trashed arrows too costly but im very competitive/stubborn to prove it can be done- not to show off. all my lessons are learned in the field on the range. my way is to shoot only 2 arrows & actually shoot less but while walking to the target i get to be honest & admit/think about my mistakes.this routine over the years has led me to know myself better. shooting only quality shots hopefully,last year i had a little fun shooting an exhibition during a noon break@camp standing on a atv @ 110yds-result was a 2shot- 4'' group(lucky) & hell no they couldnt talk me into a 3rd ;D
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Post by dougedwards on Jun 23, 2010 6:07:07 GMT -5
I still think you're trying too hard; if the Victory shoots well for you, go with it. Harley <snip> Unfortunately for me, I obsess about everything. I think about hunting every day of my life. I think about how I might develop a better way to attach my spare tire to my boat trailer. I obsess about the best way to illiminate weeds from my flower beds. And I surely obsess about archery. I know I have bought at least two dozen different types of arrows, spines, weights etc to experiment with. I have cut them to 29" down to 27" to see if the longer or shorter fly better. I have shot 85 to 150 grain broadheads. I come up with ideas that don't work. Every now and then something does seem to work. When it does I challenge it in every way possible. Be thankful if you are the kind that can just sit and relax and enjoy things as they are. The Bible says to "be still and know that I am Lord". It is the being still part that I have a problem with. Doug |
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Post by Harley on Jun 23, 2010 8:56:03 GMT -5
Thanks for the reply, Deadeye; my own injury probably never will heal as long as I shoot dozens of shots with the bow daily.
Doug, I don't want to sound self-righteous; you and I belong to the same (obsessive) club. Of course, it would be more flattering to say we just "strive for excellence".
Harley
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