Novice Archer Seeking Advice

[ET]

I decided to try to get back into archery and have been a novice on and off again over the years. Also over the years I have had others set my bow up but not this time. After completing some portable bow press brackets that allows me to work on my bow at home the interest in getting shooting again has sort of intensified. The bow is now setup after numerous adjustments on the cables (if you can call them that) for cam timing. The draw length I need is also now adjusted with the required cam module.

Next step for me is paper tuning arrow launch flight and just need to rig up a stand to house the paper. Sort of a next project to work on.
But the heart of a bow is the arrow and surprisingly there is a lot to learn about the correct arrow shaft/length for a particular poundage, minimum weight requirement and components. Yeah some of this is an eye opener for me along with all the new components available today. So for now I want to ask a few questions to our knowledgeable members.

First off an article I read on bow/arrow tuning talked about an arrow having a forward balance of 10% and can go as high as 20% for good arrow flight. Okay how do you guys feel about the validity of this statement?

Now for vanes my exposure has been with 5” plastic vanes on aluminum shafts. But now - I wonder if 4” may be a better choice and would add a better forward balance to my arrow that is currently just a little under 10%?
- Also what brand and style of plastic vanes would you recommend?
- Then of course there is the helical choice compared to the slightly angled vane for best flight?

There will be more questions but would appreciate any comments to the few I have asked for now. My cut shaft length will be 27” either with a 2115 or 2215 depending what comes in Easton’s XX78 Grand Slam arrow selection, preference given to the 2115 if they still make it.

Look forward to helpful replies and any additional comments you wish to share. I’ve got homework to do and need some help to get on a proper path that I believe this board and members can provide.

Ed

[deadon]

If a bow is tuned properly, it does not need vanes Food for thought , its true but is almost impossible

[dougedwards]

Ed....I too have gotten back into shooting compound bows after neck surgery left me permanently weak in the tricep area of my holding arm. I then chose to shoot a crossbow but recent advancements in the technology of compounds has allowed me to comfortably pull and hold as much poundage as I was shooting before my physical problem became manifest.

As far as arrows, you should consider shooting carbons. Some carbon arrows are made with weight forward technology. What I really like about carbon arrows is that they are either broken or straight. Aluminum arrows you never know for sure.

As far as FOC I think that 10% is probably a bit slight but 20% is unnecessary. The idea is to have the front half of the arrow pulling the later half in line so that the arrow doesn't get going slightly sideways after thrust. That is accomplished with weight displacement. Also, as of late shorter but taller vanes such as the Blazers have been very popular because they seem to grab the air as well as longer, shorter vanes. I actually use FOBs which are a little heavier but do a great job in a crosswind.

You can influence your arrow to spin either clockwise or counter by applying helical fletching (right or left). This also helps the arrow spin true through the air but has two down sides. Arrows shot with strong helicals are usually much more audible than those with straight or offset fletchings. Helical fletching also tends to slow the arrow down substantially at longer distances.

Hope this helps.

Doug

[ET]

Deadon

Spears and Javelins don’t need vanes but I prefer to launch a mini spear with vanes.

Dougedwards

Thanks for your informative reply about Forward Balance that I can easily understand the purpose of directing the arrow in flight. I also thought the mention of 20% was a little high if the 1st recommendation was 10%.

I am more familiar with aluminum arrows and checking for straightness so my comfort zone is with them. One of the easiest way to check one is hold the arrow upright and put the target point in your palm. Give it a rotational spin like a top with thumb and finger. If it’s bent you’ll know right away. Also I built a tool for checking straightness a long while back.
Seeing a picture and article on a shattered carbon arrow as well as driven through an archer’s hand kind of makes me feel more comfortable using aluminum.

Good points (pros and cons) about the different types of fletching methods used.
Your reply has been very helpful and my Thanks included.

Archery has always fascinated me and when I had a chance to try some I really enjoyed it. But circumstances always redirected my life and sort of drifted away from it. Now that I have an opportunity to ease back into it I plan to take advantage of that. But also I would like to learn more about it other than just proper shooting form. As I’m finding out there’s a lot more science to it that again fascinates me.

Hope the both of us can enjoy the sport for a while to come.



Ed

[ET]

My education about bows just expanded a little.
My bow has hybrid cams and the info about them was educational.

www.huntersfriend.com/bowselection.htm

This site has some good information that some might be interested about bows.

Now if I can find some test info for 3" Fusion Vanes that I'm considering for usage to compare it to the Bazer and others that would about round out my searching for a bit.


Ed

[ET]

Well today was an interesting day as I visited a reputable Archery Shop to see what’s on hand and catch up on the latest.
First off Dougedwards is right about the 2” blazer vane and the guys are really eating them up. Okay I bought enough to fletch a ½ dozen aluminum arrows to try out.
Speaking of aluminum arrows this shop doesn’t even stock them anymore but will order them for the customer. Carbon arrows are the main diet now. When finances are better a decent size order will be placed for some aluminum arrows.
But what really caught my attention was the fall-away arrow rests. I love their design and function. There will be one on my bow eventually. If anyone wants to checkout one design/make go to this link and if you scroll down there is a video that is interesting.

www.huntersfriend.com/products/reviews/QAD_Ultra_Rest/qad_ultra_arrow_rest_review.htm

I feel like I’m getting educated of today’s archery equipment and loving it.
The only thing left is checking out mechanical releases and look forward to any recommendations to look at.

Ed

[deadeye]

et,i used to own a pro-shop . dont beleive everything you hear or see, # 1-i recommend 4'' helical-they will stabilize almost anything you will shoot/remember a broadhead(fixed) will attempt to steer the arrow-need larger than 2'' unless shooting expandables in which i do not recommend. #2 mechanical release-hands down since the mid 90's -scott release's-simply the best. aluminum vs. carbon,i'll not go there but i still shoot aluminum after 1,000's of test but both have their pro's.
drop-away rest,in aluminum-not necessary,carbon-possibly. google up slow -motion arrows being released,carbon & alum react differently as they also do @ impacting the target

[dougedwards]

Another good sight to help tune your bow.
www.eastonarchery.com/pdf/tuning_guide.pdf

Doug

[ET]

Deadeye

I had a look at Scott’s site and found they had quite a selection. My first site I looked at was Tru-Flight. One characteristic I see surfacing between the 2 is the double jaw release. In your honest opinion would you prefer the single jaw release or the double jaw release?
Thanks for the heads up on the style & length of fletching and will pay close attention to this.
You made a good point about fall away rest with aluminum arrows but the one feature I love is that the arrow can’t move off the rest no matter how awkward the draw or movement. I currently have the 2-prong type but feel the need to try a fall away rest at least to satisfy my curiosity with that design I sort of fell in love with. But have noted your comment for referencing afterwards when I see the results.

Dougedwards

Good additional reading about bow tuning that I need to absorb.


Guys, appreciate you taking the time to help me out with your generosity of sharing your experience, knowledge and directing me towards good equipment candidates. I would be surprised at not having a good shooting bow combination in the end. As for the shooter he’s got some muscles to tone and co-ordination skills to re-develop yet once the ball gets rolling in motion.

Ed

[ozark]

Much of the joy of a new hobby is in the learning. I remember getting my crossbow with the idea of just getting some bolts and zeroing it in. Then I got into Forward Of Center (FOC), installing new fletching, straighting bolts, Trying different broadheads and last but not least learning how to shoot it accurately. I killed some deer and turkey plus some raccoon and squirrel with it but the fun was in the learning and finding means of improving my accuracy. I am perhaps not the usual, but when I learn all I can about a hobby it no longer holds 100 percent of my interest. I have always liked women, one never comes close to understanding all about them.lol

[sincyrman]

ET,

I own one of the fall away rests that you mentioned. I love it, since it doubles as an arrow holder. I had been reluctant to get a fall away because I couldn't figure how to incorporate an arrow holder. When I saw one of these, I was sold immediately.

Regarding the release type... I shoot with a single caliper, but installed a string loop. The loop is simple to tie, and has been very reliable. When tied properly, it looks like a good gust of wind will blow it off your string, but hundreds of shot later, it is still sitting there.

Regarding Carbon arrows... I made the switch a few years ago. They did have a bad reputation for a while. I have heard the horror reports of shafts shatering under the initial load, and then sending part of the shaft through the archers arm, but the manufacturers also got the message. Now when a carbon shaft breaks, it will look like it was sawed in half. the break is very clean. I also used to spin the alluminum arrow with the point resting on my finger to check the straightness, but that is a thing of the past. They also make for much simpler nock manipulation. The nocks fit inside the shaft and are held by friction. you can adjust the nock position by turning the nock with your fingers. What I do is nock the arrow, then spin the shaft until the vanes are aligned the way I like them.

Whatever you do is a personal preference, and there are lots of good options and a depth of knowledge on this board.

[deadeye]

et,note-back in the mid-90's,releases were not like many were today,many have come a long way in regards to to travel & poundage settings,scott was way above the rest & our archery shop was 1 of the very first to test these just like when muzzy 3bld broadheads came out also,regarding double-jaw vs, single jaw at least in scott i see no difference in accuracy or serving wear,if so just a little steel wool to un bear the edges probably not needed. i shoot the lil-goose modified for my short fingers to my fit. 15 years strong feels kinda like a jewell trigger if you know what i mean ;D ;D ;D good luck in your adventure!

[ET]

Sincyrman

Thanks for your reply.

That is an interesting thought about using a string loop. I imagine that really reduces the wear on the main string.
Just wonder if you might know anything about the metal loop that clamps on the string being used?

Yes the technology of arrow construction has really changed. I understand they now combine aluminum with carbon trying to achieve the best of both worlds. If I were to venture from aluminum this would probably be my first direction to try. But with all the options out there today with advertised pros and cons it can make a persons head spin. To help minimize costly jumping around I find listening to others from their unbiased experience helps narrow down choices. For now I still will have aluminum arrows on hand to get started back into archery because of my familiarity with them. As I slowly get back into the swing of things and develop a comfort zone I may delve into other areas.

Yes in the end it will be my preference for choice but it sure is nice to hear the experience from others to help make that choice.


Ed

[dougedwards]

Easton has the A/C/C arrows which are some really tough hunting arrows although expensive. They have an aluminum core wrapped with a carbon outer layer.

As far as string loops there are a few things to consider. First, it will change your draw as you will have a distance of 1/4-1/2" or more between the string and your bent fingers. This could possibly extend your draw over your perfect draw length and cause "locking down" problems. In other words it could allow your drawing fore arm to swivel past a perfect alignment with the drawn arrow. Adjustments can be made by twisting the string or cables to compensate for the length. Secondly, a metal loop works but adds unnecessary weight to the string thus reducing arrow speed about 3fps. Thirdly, the loop is a wonderful addition to the string in that it reduces the wear on the string and it allows you to twist your hand slightly as you lock in during full draw. Actually my palm faces directly away from my face at full draw.

Unless you are really good, a release is absolutely critical for consistent releasing of the arrow. Some archers are really particular about the brand of release that they use but they all work once you get used to them.

Doug

[ET]

Dougedwards

It appears you have been in the archery game for a while just to know a metal loop will reduce velocity 3-fps. Velocity seems to be the main goal for many archers but I would trade a few fps for accuracy any day. I have no desire to shoot competition but would love to cleanly harvest a deer one day with a Bow before my lifetime expires, God Willing.

My understanding with the metal loop is that it holds the string straight when drawn and have read somewhere it reduces the stress on the knock by not trying to pinch it. In this way the stress from a string is across the knock instead of on the outer edges of the knock when the string is released. So the theory goes.
My bow is the Darton Maverick with hybrid cams, 60-70lbs with 75% let off. My draw length is 25-1/2” using 27” arrows. I know this kind of Bow may not be very forgiving now that I’ve really looked up info on Bows but the feel of the fit is almost perfect to me.
More than the existing cams the fit and 75% let off is what encouraged me to buy the Bow in the first place.

A release is definitely what I need and have used in the past. I prefer the short body release that can be adjusted for finger length with a wrist strap. Again here fit plays an important role to me. Just like a firearm if the fit is good then my focus is on form, aiming and release with the follow through.
My Trophy Hunter release was good with the string but don’t know how it will react with say a loop that has an arrow in it. The wheels are set a little deeper than the newer releases so I need options for a possible replacement. With the loop setup I hope to greatly reduce the time frame of replacing the serving.

Again thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience.


Ed

[DHinMN]

For a good forum on archery, google "archery talk". It's a big forum with a lot of knowledgeable archers. The String loop is by far the most popular and I think more forgiving. Archery technology has come so far and it is hard to keep up with the latest and what is good and what isn't. The Archery Talk forum might help you out with some of that. But that said I think you have received some very good advice here.

[deadeye]

the ''loop'' was originally invented for not pinching nock's for shorter axle to axle bows for usually longer draw lenght's approx 29''+. it became necessary for shorter axle to axle bows to eliminate(more string angle) the nock pinch sometimes squeezing arrow off the string. before that phenonenom we had a very great release called "barner" rope release which answers both nock pinch & so called accuracy more acceptable with no loop needed. there are very few rope releases available today but would be more sensible than a loop with any jaw release,but they want to sell you 2 items & not 1,go figure! most archery shooters dont notice accuracy betterment but notice not pinching the nock off the string due to shorter axle to axle bows which they intend to sell for speed,speed,speed,kinda like 2''vanes btw -i average 4'' groups or less @ ranges of 75-95yds with or without loops & drop-away rest. barner also had a inertia rest way befrore this drop-away fad,probably much more dependent clearing the rest & shelf on inertia rather than cable releasing drop-away ;D ;D

[Dave W]

Believe it or not Deadeye I have one of those Barner Timeless rests on the shelf. ;D

Ed, I have always liked the Scott releases for hunting. Carter makes nice releases also, well they did when I was into 3-D, many moons ago. ;D Good luck in the endeavor, nothing like bowhunting whitetails.

[ET]

DHinMN

Thanks for the direction to Archer Talk and boy did I spent a few hours going through the posts learning quite a bit. There will be some more visits yet.

Deadeye

Boy you have been in the Archery game for quite a while also. Wish I had ½ your experience, knowledge and skills for that matter. If I pull off 4” at 50-yds I’d be one happy camper. 50-yds would probably be my max range.
So one point you made about type of fletching convinced me to order a RH Helical Clamp for my BPE Pro Fletching tool to see what accuracy advantage I might gain here.
And I still want that drop away rest. ;D ;D

DW

I’m really looking forward to just get back into archery and see what skills this old man has left. ;D

Just a simple note about my progress.
To day I happened to unpack a box from moving into this home about 4-years back and to my surprise found something I had forgotten all about. I actually did buy a metal loop by Tru Nock and there it sat in an unopened package. Okay I have one and need to try it out.
I installed it, knocked an arrow and tried fitting my Trophy Pro Hunter release. Dang a perfect fit. Well at least I have something to start out with and see what I have to work with before considering extra expenditures once I get back to work. I’m really starting to enjoy this at it’s coming together.

Guys again thanks for your help.


Ed

[deadeye]

et- a bitzenberger jig will work very well,there are other good jigs also. i do all my arrows on 1 jig so they are exactly the same only after spinning all arrows off my knumbnail for straightness(culling) i have a drop-away also,there is nothing wrong with those except im trying to figure out a way to silence it without effecting the arrow clearance. davew- is that rest on the bowshelf or stored away on a shelf? ;D ;D ;D

[Dave W]

Sitting on a shelf Deadeye, haven't used it since I quit shooting spots indoors.