Stiller Muzzleloader Action Coming Soon

[ttracer9]

I was on the phone today with Stiller Precisions Firearms www.viperactions.com discussing actions for my smokeless 45 project when it was revealed to me that later this year or early next year Stiller will be putting out a rear lug muzzleloader action. I wish I had the time to wait on this action to come out. Stiller makes some very fine actions at affordable prices and I am sure that the Muzzleloader action will be no different. I have decided to go with the TAC-30 myself. Just some breaking news that I thought might excite you guys.

[artjr338wm]

By the term "rear lug action" does that translate in laymans term to a NON-barreled action that would require if purchased you add a aftermarket barrel of your choice?

Thanks,
Arthur.

[lwh723]

Feb 18, 2010 11:38:00 GMT -5 ttracer9 said:

Stiller makes some very fine actions at affordable prices

Affordable!?!! Looking at the website, you're talking $800+ for an action! I could put together a rig with a Savage target action and Pacnor barrel for not much more than that total.

[ttracer9]

artjr, yes this is an action only you still need a barrel.

lwh, yes you could put together a Savage for that a little more than that. These are stainless steel custom Remington 700 style actions. You will spend as much if not more truing a stock Remington action and still not come close to the quality of the Stiller action. All other custom actions are at least $1000 dollars. The Stiller actions are a good bargain at $775.

[artjr338wm]

IMHO, there are few words that are defined better by the word "relative" than the word "affordable". As weather or not any object can be described as affordable is completely reliant on what a person is willing to accept as affordable.

If I were say, one day to be lucky enough to stumble across a Bugatti Royal in mint condition for $1.5 million it would be considered the auto bargain of a life time, as it is worth well over $12 million, but relative to what I can afford it is still way beyond my financial means.

Spending $800-$1000 on a rifle action only is strictly speaking in terms "relative" to my financial means simply out of the question. For dozens if not 100s of other firearm enthusiasts with more disposable income on hand than I, AND possessing the desire to spend it on a pure want, this is not the case.

If I were to buy a Stiller action to build a smokeless ML on then add in the cost of a equally good barrel, then finish off my project with a equally good synthetic or wood stock, and now factor in my smith costs to put my dream ML together I would be looking at close to (I'm guessing?) $1800. A cost I am sure is with in the means of many, I'm just not one of them.

[Jon]

I'm not to bright I guess. But just to put out a question. I can understand putting out good money for an action for a c/f The action has a lot of work to do. But in the case of atleast most m/l The breachplug does most of the work all the action does is hold the barrel and primer. I'm just asking I want to do 1 more build and want it to be right. But I don't want too buy an high priced action just to say I have one or because it lookes better I'm really only concerned with function. Thank you any input would be appreciated I'm relatively new to this I don't even know what a bolt lift kit is and have not been able to find out. So lets face it I'm pretty much in the dark any help would be appreciated.
Jon

[Richard]

I can attest to the quality of Stillers actions as I shoot two of them in IBS 1,000 and 600 yard competition. I use the Viper for my light gun and the Python for the heavy rifle. What I will do is give you my opinion as to a custom ML action...........................
Just use a Savage and add a Pac-Nor barrel along with a good trigger and you will compete side by side with the Stiller. When it comes to Center Fire benchrest rifles, that is where the CUSTOM action will out shine (most of the time) (a good trued Rem. will also shoot well) most factory actions. And as a previous post indicated, by the time you pay to have a Remmy trued up, you would be better off with the custom action.........It also has better resale value than a Rem.
With a ML, the only thing the action does is hold the barrel and provide a means to get fire to the powder. Your accuracy is primarily contained within the barrel. Just think about it..............You have a barrel with a breech plug in the end. You stuff your powder down from the muzzle, then your saboted or sabot less bullet from the muzzle...........there is NO throat? What goes down the muzzle, comes out the muzzle. Forget this crap about "trued actions!" It don't mean "jack s _ _ t" in a ML. Its all in the barrel. The bullet is going to impact where the barrel is pointed.
This is just MY opinion
Richard

[Jon]

Richard thank you. It is always better to hear it from some one that knows. I do have one more question that I keep asking WHAT IS A BOLT LIFT KIT???
Jon

[fishhawk]

I agree with Richard, the Stillers are pretty but the extra $ for looks is too much. A good trigger on any action should shoot as good for a ML. I"d love to have an action with the integral base, but Stillers tac series is not one of them.

[Richard]

Jon..........I am going to venture a guess??? I believe it is a different bolt handle. Longer with a bigger knob. Easier to grab and more leverage.
Richard

[deadon]

Richard, Why do you always hold back, Tell it like it is ;D

[jims]

I would agree with Richard. I live near SharpShooterSupply (SSS). I have his triggers on my three Savage MLs and two of his recoil lugs. I asked him about time/truing the action and he said there was no advantage with the muzzleloader as compared to the centerfires.

[Jon]

Richard, Thank you I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. I kept hearing it mentioned but hadn't been able to find an explanation of what it was. If I'm understanding this correctly it makes it easier to work the bolt. I think I like your method better a little smoothing here and there and a little lube make things work better and probably ad a bit of longevity.
Jon

[ttracer9]

Richard is completely correct abot being no real advantage with a custom action for a muzzleloader build except a trued reciever face and you can get it in a single shot.. I am building my ultimate muzzleloader and have saved the money for a custom action for it. This is my personal preference. I thought that there might be someone else out there that might be interested in the info that I had aquired. In no way shape or form am I saying that you must use a custom action. Also forgot to mention mine will be a switch barrel.

[KerryB]

Feb 18, 2010 21:37:12 GMT -5 Richard said:

With a ML, the only thing the action does is hold the barrel and provide a means to get fire to the powder. Your accuracy is primarily contained within the barrel. Just think about it..............You have a barrel with a breech plug in the end. You stuff your powder down from the muzzle, then your saboted or sabot less bullet from the muzzle...........there is NO throat? What goes down the muzzle, comes out the muzzle. Forget this crap about "trued actions!" It don't mean "jack s _ _ t" in a ML. Its all in the barrel. The bullet is going to impact where the barrel is pointed.
This is just MY opinion
Richard

When Richard speaks........smokeless muzzleloader shooters listen! He has proven that he knows his business. On the flip side of the coin, if you want your receiver gold plated and you fully believe that it will make you shoot better........then it just might. A lot that has to do with accuracy is in your own mind. I say spend as much as you want...........the rifle may not shoot any better, but you just might!

[bigmoose]

Richard,

Only your opinion.......some opinions are more worthy than others.

Please keep giving your opinion.

[olegburn]

ttracer9,I don't mean to hijack your post,but I want to ask Richard: -Can you provide link to that discussion where you and edge,I believe,and others sparred on the benefits or lack thereof in truing action and recoil lug on the muzzleloader?
ttracer9 link made me think of it and I really want to read it.
Thanks!
olegburn

[edge]

YIKES ;D

OK, this is JUST MY OPINION!
With a ML rifle:

1) I assume that the barrel is of good quality;
2) The ACTION is bedded in the stock;
3) The BARREL is free floated.

For good accuracy the BARREL must be in line with the ACTION!

Any angular misalignment will cause the barrel to whip at an angle instead of recoiling straight to the action.

IMO, for absolute accuracy with a ML ( though not really needed ), I would bed a barrel block and float the action, to me the bullet must exit the bore perpendicular to the anchor point.

edge.

[bigmoose]

Edge,

Yet another worthy opinion.

My rifle is like my car, if I turn the key and it starts, I'm happy
With my rifle if I squeeze the trigger and it goes bang, I'm all smiles, failure in either case, means, call for HELP.
Good to know we have many wise men on this site.

[rossman40]

Blueprinting a action can only help, the main thing is how much it helps. If your striving to squezze that last .1 moa out then yes. Then again what problems did you have to start with or how bad was it? Is the gain worth the expense?

My main question, getting back to the theme, is this new action a rear lugged bolt like the old Newcomes or a rear recoil lug.

[Richard]

Sounds like the old Rem. 722 action?

As far as that old discussion with Edge?? "Its water over the dam!" I would like to think we now have a mutual understanding of each others abilities which may have been lacking when I arrived on the scene. Both our rifles shoot accurately and that is all that counts.
Richard

[spaniel]

He said his build is going to be a switch barrel...so the action becomes more important if he's going back and forth between centerfire. My question is, what is the difference between a Predator/TAC30 and the ML action? What would be the disadvantage to building on the ML action vs a centerfire action? I'm guessing the centerfire is not set up for a mag so you'd be limiting yourself to a single shot...why not use a Predator/TAC30 instead? It would work fine as a ML and set you up well for the centerfire.

I would not tell anyone a Stiller is a bad choice. I have been drooling over one for a couple years now. But somehow when it came time to choose between a smokeless build on a Savage platform and a custom 243AI on a Stiller, the smokeless build won out. Probably something to do with my predeliction for MLing and the fact that I can't hunt anything but coyotes around here with a 243AI.

[olegburn]

To Richard and edge,
if my interest in your old disagreements sounds strange,it is because when you guys presenting your arguments it is very informative,and at times entertaining . More informative though.
link still would be appreciated.
I tend to agree with edge on lining up the barrel and the action.
With the barrel nut it would be interesting to know: does it allow to line-up the components?
how square is nut and if not-does it cause any misalignment?

ttracer-have you used Stiller actions before?
I didn't see ML action mentioned on their website.

[rossman40]

There are a lot of aftermarket actions out there. Stiller, Lawton, Borden, Pierce, BAT and that is just a few that make the lightweights. $750 for a action with bolt that is already blueprinted isn't a bad price, then you have to remember that this is smoother action then 99% that ever came off the line at Remington. And your not going to find a flat floor (single shot) 700 with smaller ejection port for maximum rigidity.

[Richard]

Building on a Stiller action would be no different than the custom ML's dave d builds on the Remington action. Yes, the bolt may be somewhat smoother and the hanger that Stiller makes to hold the Remington "type" triggers is more convenient, but will it shoot more accurately (in a muzzle loader) than one built on a Remington action?.............Provided the face of the action is "square" and the shoulder on the barrel is "square"? I would put them side by side in competition. Mind you, I have two Stiller actions and love them..............For center fire competition rifles!
Richard

[10ga]

How about putting a disirable glass on the 18C gun. Then it's 24C. AND I'm guessing, for that kind of money, it will kill deer a LOT deader than my ML II. 10 ga

[spaniel]

Feb 20, 2010 17:50:39 GMT -5 Richard said:

Building on a Stiller action would be no different than the custom ML's dave d builds on the Remington action. Yes, the bolt may be somewhat smoother and the hanger that Stiller makes to hold the Remington "type" triggers is more convenient, but will it shoot more accurately (in a muzzle loader) than one built on a Remington action?.............Provided the face of the action is "square" and the shoulder on the barrel is "square"? I would put them side by side in competition. Mind you, I have two Stiller actions and love them..............For center fire competition rifles!
Richard

Again, I wonder about the differences between their CF actions and the ML action? The OP mentioned that he was building a switch barrel on the ML action...I completely agree with you on the relative less importance of the action for a ML but if the gun is a switch barrel it becomes a bigger issue.