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Post by dougedwards on Oct 28, 2009 8:29:33 GMT -5
Not sure where this thread should be but thought I would post it here because bow hunters (with the exception of long range bow hunter Steve White) must get close. Just messing with you Steve ;D
There is a guy in Minnesota by the name of Miles Keller who has harvested 18 Pope and Young whitetails and another guy by the name of Bob Fratzke who has taken 24 trophy class whitetail bucks in a 36 year period. That's a lot of trophy deer for just two men! If you read any advice from these two men you will hear one clear voice. YOU MUST HUNT CLEAN!!!
Which brings me to my question. How do you guys handle your breath if at all? There is bacteria in our teeth which produce a by product and also digestive juices coming from our stomachs. Most all tooth paste are scented. Does this peppermint type of smell alert deer to our presence? Do you ignore your breath altogether? How do you guys handle this aspect of bow hunting?
Doug
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Post by Dave W on Oct 28, 2009 16:49:12 GMT -5
Well mine probably smells like dung before I get settled in the tree since I put a rub or chew in soon as I get in the tree or on the way in to the tree. As careful as I am about scent control, this is my biggest weakness since I refuse to sit all day without nicotine. I wear Scent-Lok, headnet and clothes. Honestly, I feel that I rarely get winded, at least to the extreme that a deer will blow, thanks to the measures I take.
At one time Myles stated that all his bigger deer were taken with a dip of Copenhagen in, at least I think it was Myles in the article, this was several years ago.
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Post by dpoor65 on Oct 29, 2009 5:26:28 GMT -5
I don't so much worry about my breath or any other odor.....I hunt the wind so It is a non factor.....
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Post by sw on Oct 29, 2009 7:08:24 GMT -5
Doug, I think for a person who tries to keep odor down as much as practical, the major odor we emit is what we exhale. This is a combination of mouth odor, gastric odors and what comes out thru our lungs. Much of this we can't smell. Even the healthiest, cleanest person in the world will exhale lung odors - any odor contains cells or at least molecules specific to whatever is emitting that odor. We can't get around this odor unless we wear a filter. I think if we ate a vegetarian diet, washed our clothes in proper cleaners, dried them outside, preferably in the woods, stored them with leaves, used unscented deodorant, kept our mouths as clean as possible(flossing, extreme oral hygiene, hunter's toothpaste/rinse), and then wore an active carbon filtration mask, we would then be fairly scent free. Until then, strategic placement of stands - both height and topographical placement- and our approach to stands will remain paramount.
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Post by huntingmike on Oct 29, 2009 18:54:38 GMT -5
I have an active charcoal head and face cover for scent control. I also always try to use the wind but sometimes it swirls even worse is a late evening when there is no wind and the cooling air sinks to the ground directly around your tree. That is why I use a cover scent of pure cedar oil.
Mike
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Post by dougedwards on Oct 29, 2009 19:33:32 GMT -5
I don't so much worry about my breath or any other odor.....I hunt the wind so It is a non factor..... Haven't any of you guys noticed that the wind often changes direction during the course of a day. Many times I have chosen placement of my climber based on the wind direction about an hour before sunrise only to be fool about an hour after sunrise by a quick change in direction of the wind. I just wonder how many deer we spook with our breath that we never knew where there. Doug
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Post by Dave W on Oct 29, 2009 21:33:18 GMT -5
Where I hunt, playing the wind is an exercise in futility. I have sat on stand and watched the wind change direction four times in less than an hour. We hunt high, 30-40 feet up, to try and keep scent as far up in the air as possible in hope that once it settles to the ground it has traveled far enough away from the stand to keep from alerting nearby deer.
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Post by dpoor65 on Oct 30, 2009 6:56:44 GMT -5
"I just wonder how many deer we spook with our breath that we never knew where there"I'm sure it happens but I really think that we as hunters can get sucked in to the "You Have to have this and You Have to Have that in order to harvest a deer"..... Have I used Scent loc clothing?....sure...paid 30 dollars for it....pants and pull over coat....Military surplus.....thats where the idea came from any way Chemical. Biological Warfare suits...do they work, yes, to an extent...but I think your on to something....Why pay money for a scent lock suit when deer pick up the scents emitted from our breath.... Play the wind and you can't go wrong. I think when those two say hunt clean they mean don't leave a scent trail in or out of the woods.....how many times have you seen a deer pick up your scent from boots or clothing rubbing up against brush? thats where I think those guys were going with hunt clean....but I bet they both play the wind first and foremost
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Post by sw on Oct 30, 2009 7:51:55 GMT -5
During the day, wind normally rises along ridges(goes up the hill) and falls the last 2-3 hrs of shooting light.
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Post by dougedwards on Oct 30, 2009 11:40:02 GMT -5
Most hunters are aware of wind direction but that only goes so far. Wind directions swirls and changes without notice. I am not a proponent of buying alot of expensive items for scent control but I do believe that there are things we can do about it. To discard the fact that a whitetails nose is more sensitive than that of a blood hound is a drastic mistake as a hunter IMO.
Mike might be on to something by wearing a mask to capture the breath. Surely a deer knows what a carnivore's breath smells like. I think that there are some things that we can do about that if we care to do so.
Wearing a carbon mask might be one remedy for escaping molecules reaching a deer's nose from our lungs and stomach. Seems to me that breathing into one might interfere with our hearing and also would be rather hot if hunting in warm weather. But a good idea nonetheless.
Brushing of teeth with baking soda and maybe a gargle with hydrogen perozide could keep down the bacteria in our mouths. Not sure if this would help mask the molecules coming from our lungs. But since it takes very little effort or cost to brush and gargle I would think that this procedure could only help.
The suggestion made by others to keep in mind that heat usually rises from the earth in the morning and decends back to the earth in the evening is a very good aspect to consider when choosing stand placement.
All in all I know that a whitetail depends heavily on it's sense of smell for defense. The fact that a particular deer might walk into our presence even though we have just relieved ourselves from our stand or have just walked in the woods with the same clothes from the workplace is no indication of the whole species IMO.
I don't own a carbon suit. Maybe I should. But that doesn't mean that I am not aware that a whitetail will be alerted to the fact that the molecules being emitted from my person.
Doug
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Post by sw on Oct 30, 2009 19:47:36 GMT -5
I've owned more than one carbon lined suit, complete with head gear. The suits have a distinctive odor after being dried in the drier. I wonder about this: if I can easily smell this strange odor, why can a deer? Also, just how much filtration can a head cover scentlock type mask really provide and for how long? I'd like an activated charcoal respirator type of mask. Haven't seen one. In my "purist" years, I wouldn't eat any meat for 6 weeks prior to deer season, only ate bland vegetables, etc, washed my clothes in pond water with baking soda and dried them outside and stored them with leaves, left my boots out all year in a plastic container and washed them in pond water/baking soda, etc. Now I rely more on stand placement, path to the stand, beating the wind, higher stands,etc. A person can get to the point where the joy of the hunt can be diminished. I now try to be in a happy medium.
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Post by dougedwards on Nov 1, 2009 12:05:02 GMT -5
I've owned more than one carbon lined suit, complete with head gear. The suits have a distinctive odor after being dried in the drier. I wonder about this: if I can easily smell this strange odor, why can a deer? Also, just how much filtration can a head cover scentlock type mask really provide and for how long? I'd like an activated charcoal respirator type of mask. Haven't seen one. In my "purist" years, I wouldn't eat any meat for 6 weeks prior to deer season, only ate bland vegetables, etc, washed my clothes in pond water with baking soda and dried them outside and stored them with leaves, left my boots out all year in a plastic container and washed them in pond water/baking soda, etc. Now I rely more on stand placement, path to the stand, beating the wind, higher stands,etc. A person can get to the point where the joy of the hunt can be diminished. I now try to be in a happy medium. Your post has me wondering if your success rate has diminished while your satisfaction rate has increased. Doug
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Post by ozark on Nov 1, 2009 16:29:40 GMT -5
Just from observation I believe that human scent is heavy and tends to go to the ground rather than floating in the air. I have noticed that dogs trail their masters scent with their nose to the ground. They usually trail other animals the same way. But also there is a band of scent that surrounds animals and I am sure human animals. Some dogs follow animal scent (usually running hounds) by drifting in and out of this band of scent. I have seen dogs chasing deer by scent that were 25 or more yards to the side of where the actual path was located. They drift out of the band, go silent and then drift back until they detect scent and give voice. Band scenting dogs are usually making faster progress than tracking dogs but are more likely to make loses. Band following dogs rarely put their nose to the ground. Bands of scent disipates quickly so band runners cannot follow a cold trail without resorting to ground scent. Deer don't like to move about in windy weather because the wind disturbs one of their primary safety measures. In a wilderness area where deer seldom see or smell humans their reaction to human scent is to flee immediately. In rural areas and parks they become accustomed to human scent and doesn't become frightened until they see what the human is doing. If the human is busy working or fishing they may watch awhile and continue feeding. I mention all this because I feel the better hunter takes into consideration all factors and not just bad breath or odor from the pores of our skin. I have had deer smell me and bolt away. I have had others smell me and slip away as quietly as possible in no great hurry. Sorry for the long reply but I didn't have anything more interesting to do. LOL
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Post by sw on Nov 1, 2009 16:37:40 GMT -5
:)Doug - yes. Ben - Sorry there is nothing more interesting to do. Thanks for spreading your wisdom. I did a good thing when I steered you to this board.
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Post by ozark on Nov 1, 2009 17:03:36 GMT -5
sw, you did me a great favor when you sterred me here. It has been a great source of pleasure for me and if I have helped others then that adds to my pleasure. Thank You sw.
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Post by dougedwards on Nov 1, 2009 19:08:21 GMT -5
Some men are smart. Other men are wise. I perceive that you are both. Doug
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Post by jims on Nov 1, 2009 19:24:52 GMT -5
;D Doug: My wife calls me a wise a--, I wonder what that makes me. ;D
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Post by ozark on Nov 1, 2009 20:35:05 GMT -5
Where did I get this? Smart people talk about ideas, ordinary people talk about things, dumb people talk about people. I can't recall first hearing this many many years ago. Got any ideas? LOL
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Post by sw on Nov 1, 2009 21:37:36 GMT -5
Some men are smart. Other men are wise. I perceive that you are both. Doug Smart - you obviously don't know me. I think edge would like to shoot me at times. I sit in the stand and think, appreciate God's handiwork, contemplate, and memorize the distances to all the places I've range found(bow/x-bow hunting) from my stand. Enclosed in a box blind- read the Bible on my i-phone. Love my i-phone. Wish we had 3-G here in rural AR.
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Post by killahog on Nov 2, 2009 19:43:17 GMT -5
Doug I currently do not take any precaution to reduce human mouth odor I probably should. I hunt 20-30 feet up 90% of the time and and spend alot of time choosing my stand sites accourding to the wind. I also carry a pocket full of crow breast feathers and watch them float before and during the hunt. I personally think the only advantage to scent loc clothing is having confidence you are not going to be scented. If one was to read what james c croll says about scent loc and believe what he published the sales of such clothes would diminish.
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Post by Dave W on Nov 2, 2009 22:24:05 GMT -5
Doug I currently do not take any precaution to reduce human mouth odor I probably should. I hunt 20-30 feet up 90% of the time and and spend alot of time choosing my stand sites accourding to the wind. I also carry a pocket full of crow breast feathers and watch them float before and during the hunt. I personally think the only advantage to scent loc clothing is having confidence you are not going to be scented. If one was to read what james c croll says about scent loc and believe what he published the sales of such clothes would diminish. I'll bite. What did he say?
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Post by edge on Nov 3, 2009 13:09:06 GMT -5
Learn to read the wind or breathe out of a different orifice ;D
When I started bow hunting there was a group of deer that approached the woods from the field that seemed like a perfect setup. To the novice, the deer approached with the wind at their backs coming into a small Oak flat. I climbed into a big Oak and picked out the buck I was going to shoot. When they got about 200 yards out they started sniffing the air, looking right at me and started snorting and finally ran off!
What I failed to realise was that the Oak flat was only about 30 yards deep and then it became mainly cedar trees. The slightest breeze would go past me and hit the Cedars like it was a wall and go right back out across the field.
It took a while before I moved my stand back into the cedars and was finally able to get a shot at those deer.
It isn't always wind direction, but a combination of direction and its interaction with its surroundings!
edge.
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Post by ozark on Nov 3, 2009 14:48:21 GMT -5
I agree edge. Here we have steep hollows and hillsides that face all points of the compass in a small area of say 40 acres. It swirls if there is a good breeze. Also the humidity has a lot to do with how well the deer can smell. On a calm damp day they can detect you and pinpoint you. Most won't believe me but I have actually got the scent of a buck before seeing it. Some other have also I am sure.
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Post by Dave W on Nov 3, 2009 18:12:12 GMT -5
Learn to read the wind or breathe out of a different orifice ;D edge. ;D ;D ;DYou are good, I'll give you that. ;D
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Post by edge on Nov 3, 2009 18:32:24 GMT -5
;D ;D ;DYou are good, I'll give you that. ;D So far I have only learned how to exhale, but my wife says I can do it in my sleep ;D ;D edge.
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Post by Dave W on Nov 3, 2009 19:34:15 GMT -5
;D ;D ;DYou are good, I'll give you that. ;D So far I have only learned how to exhale, but my wife says I can do it in my sleep ;D ;D edge. Apparently you need more practice, no way you will get something past a big mature buck if you can't sneak one by the wife. From the pics Ozark has posted and his description, he hunts similar terrain to what we see here, the wind continually shifts it seems.
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Post by Dave W on Nov 7, 2009 23:26:36 GMT -5
Something else to consider if you do not use unscented shampoo or a carbon head cover. According to an article I read in NAWT, hair is the biggest carrier/creator of scent. The author went so far as to shave his armpits during bow season, not sure about his head, the armpit thing always stuck with me for some reason.
Neither the wife or I smoke but both our moms do, when one of us has visited our mom and came home, the other readily can tell from the stench of cigarette smoke in the hair. I'm sure it adheres to the skin as well, but the scent in the hair is extremely noticeable. Don't know if brewing coffee or food smells do likewise.
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Post by dougedwards on Nov 8, 2009 8:35:25 GMT -5
Something else to consider if you do not use unscented shampoo or a carbon head cover. According to an article I read in NAWT, hair is the biggest carrier/creator of scent. The author went so far as to shave his armpits during bow season, not sure about his head, the armpit thing always stuck with me for some reason. Neither the wife or I smoke but both our moms do, when one of us has visited our mom and came home, the other readily can tell from the stench of cigarette smoke in the hair. I'm sure it adheres to the skin as well, but the scent in the hair is extremely noticeable. Don't know if brewing coffee or food smells do likewise. I am curious about what NAWT is? The best thing for hair is baking soda. I work into my hair and beard fresh baking soda to counter-act the smell capturing quality of hair. This doesn't work under the armpits because baking soda has an abrasive quality which can be very irritating. I spray a hydrogen perozide solution under my arms to kill bacteria and put baking soda on the outside of under-armor garmet that goes on my body first. Also a product called Tru-Carbon can be used but it is extremely messy as it is actually powdered activated carbon. Doug
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Post by Dave W on Nov 8, 2009 10:06:32 GMT -5
North American Whitetail. Don't take this wrong Doug,but you sound like you are you are as crazy as I am about this whitetail business. ;D
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Post by dougedwards on Nov 8, 2009 10:27:50 GMT -5
North American Whitetail. Don't take this wrong Doug,but you sound like you are you are as crazy as I am about this whitetail business. ;D Just ask my wife However most of my scent reduction remedies are very inexpensive methods. I actually wash my hunting clothes in a large bucket in a solution made with Tru-Carbon, Sport Wash and baking soda to create my own carbon suit. The dryer does not get even close to hot enough to re-activate the carbon within the clothes so I just wash them after every use using the same solution. Yeah, I know it is a little extreme but cost very little. www.naturalpredator.com/TRUCarbon.asp Doug
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