hand-held wind meter

[dougedwards]

Just wondering if anyone has the use of one of these handy gadgets for long range shooting? There are several brands in the market such as Kestrel, Speedtech Windmate, Brunton and Skymate to name a few and many variations. I would think that a wind direction device would be a good thing also. I think that Daniel Boone spit on his finger and held it in the air. What do you guys use to estimate windage on long shots?

Doug

[ozark]

Doug, I am just wondering about the overall benefits of knowing the wind direction and speed at the shooters location. What it is doing at the target is going to effect the bullet more. Here in the hills the land contours causes the wind to swirl in a maner that one may have three different directions at 300 yards. If you hunt from a stationary stand putting survey tape at 50 yard intervals provides a pretty good indicator of both speed and direction at those points. If you get one please report on its help. I have not seen one but I do question its value to compensating for the wind. Unless the breeze is pretty stiff I ignore it. Just my take. Ozark

[edge]

IMO, for long range they can be helpful, especially if hunting in unfamiliar areas.

If I went out west, they have grasses and shrubbery that I am not familiar with. Do the branches sway the same as ones that I know?

By knowing the wind where I am standing and observing the foliage ( at my location ) I could make a much more educated guess as to the wind at distance.

edge.

[dougedwards]

The subject came up a while back when a guy in the Savage 10ML board asked about 500 yard shooting. With the terrible ballistic coefficients of bullets available in 45 caliber it is obvious that even a slight direct crosswind can play havoc with accuracy at such distances.

You would think that anyone interested in 500+ yard shooting would employ the use of a wind meter unless he is just doggone good at wind estimation. I of course know that a meter is only going to give limited info. My question is also concerning wind direction. Isn't that just as critical of a component as wind speed? I am wondering why most of the wind meters don't give wind direction information.

One thing learned that is a little suprising is that the impact of the wind at the muzzle is more critical than at the target. I would think that as the bullet slows down the wind factor would have more affect. We don't usually discuss such issues here because most of the ballistic discussion is concerning the Savage 10ML but as things proceed naturally as they do, I think that we are going to see muzzleloaders that accurately shoot to 500 yards and beyond. And, of course, this message board is not restricted to only chatter about muzzleloaders so I though I would throw out some questions that might not apply to most of our shooting that we do today......but who knows what we will be doing in the future.

Doug

[ozark]

Very interesting to me about the wind effecting the bullet more at the muzzle than down near the target. I would be interested in hearing the logic behind that theory. I used a 100 power scope slightly out of focus to cause the mirage to show up even in very cold weather. We looked at the mirage waves at the three quarter distance point to the target. I am always reading and willing to have another wrinkle added to my horn. Having shot both the 30-06 and the .308 at 1000 yard ranges I would not be even mildly surprised to see the ML becoming reasonably accurate at 500 yards. The bulleye we fired at 1000 yards was 40 inches in diameter but even that was very difficult to keep 20 consective shots in. Some did it with iron sights but I never maxed it. With my vision it appeared to move around a lot. Ozark

[dougedwards]

Ben....I only have a guess as to why wind would have more impact on POI at the shooter more so than at the target. I am thinking that any initial alteration of the course of the projectile by the wind will have more dramatic impact on the bullets final resting place because it has a longer time period and distance to travel in it's off course direction. Sort of like if you draw a line from the center of a circle and extend it to perimeter. Then draw another straight line from the center just barely off course from the original line. The difference of the space between where both lines intersect with their permimeter will be less on a small circle than if it were a very large circle.

The same reason that we suspect that sometimes a bullet shot from a muzzleloader at slower speeds will have a higher POI. It is in that micro-second that the bullet is still in the barrel that upward recoil affects the intended flight of the bullet. Where it might only be .001 inch upward shift at the muzzle........as that same angle proceeds to 100 yards it could translate into several inches. Not sure about the correct ratio here but I am hoping that you get what I am trying to say.

Again this is just hypothesis on my part. I read in several posts on the longrangeshooting.com forum that the impact of the wind was greater at the shooter than at the target. That had me scratching my head and this is the best guess that I can come up with.

Doug

[Richard]

Largely accepted amongst the benchrest community is that the wind closest to the muzzle will affect the bullets path more than the downrange wind. As far as the wind meters? I have only been at one 1,000 yard match where someone brought one of those Kestrel meters. He had it mounted on a tripod??? It was interesting but of little value. I could see if you were say.....prarie dog shooting out on the more open plains where you had no interference from mountains and trees........the wind could be the same all the way from your position to the intended target. Once you introduce mountains, valleys, trees etc., it becomes almost useless.
Richard

[dougedwards]

That is an interesting fact there Richard. Benchrest guys who shoot sometimes at very long distances don't usually employ the use of wind gadgets. I would think that gathering information on the average wind speed and direction would be helpful but if those guys aren't using it that causes me to wonder.

I have chosen to have Tom Post of Swinglock to build me a custom made muzzleloader in hopes of developing an accurate 500 yard shooter. While at centerfire standards 500+ yd shooting is not really all that big of a deal partly because of the choice of bullets that are available, it still is much farther than I have been accustomed.

When I look at ballistic charts it is obvious that wind deflection gets to be a real concern as it takes longer for a bullet to reach it's destination at the longer ranges. It would seem that any help at all concerning wind speed and direction would assist the inexperienced long range shooter immensly but after reading some posts here and on other forums I think I am going to hold off on the wind meter.

[Richard]

dougedwards..........I did not say that 1,000 yard/600 yard or for that matter, any long range shooters, do NOT, use wind devices. On the contrary, they do, but not wind speed meters. Our 1,000 yard range has wind sock at 150, 550 and 800 yards. Some of the shooters at the 600 yard matches where the ground is flat, employ wind flags with daisy wheels from 50 to 400 yards along with "black and white" striped mirage boards next to their target.
We get sighter shots on a berm lined with clay pigeons a few feet in front of our target. Due to the distance you are able to see your impacts and adjust accordingly. We generally try to fire a shot in the last 15 seconds (they call out the remaining time) prior to the end of the sight in period and then, in a matter of seconds, the line goes hot for your record shots. Most shooters will then reel off their record shots as fast as possible to take advantage of the previous sighter's wind condition. It is not uncommon for five accurate record shots to be fired in 20 sec. In heavy gun, 10 shots in 35 sec. ALL single shot!
Under sniper type conditions, the wind meter might assist in getting the first shot close.....then the spotter can relay the POI and hopefully the sniper can rapidly compensate and make the kill!
Bulls eyes and human targets are two different games.
So you see, the actual wind speed does not mean much for target shooting when you are able to spot your hits and just dial your scope to the impact.
Richard

[dougedwards]

Richard......after reading your post I can gather that some people are very much more capable of reading flags and socks and wheels than I am for sure. If I see an American flag blowing (I have one in my front yard) I can usually tell whether the wind is blowing hard or not. Sometimes I am able to tell the direction of the wind. But I don't think I would be able to determine too much to any degree of accuracy.

Wind is sometimes a very tricky element to determine. As a bow hunter I carry a powder bottle that will show me the direction of the wind when squeezed. But I also carry cotton balls. When I pinch off the smallest thread of cotton and release it sometimes I find that as the thread falls from my treestand.......it will completely change direction once it reaches close to the ground. Of course here I am really trying to determine the direction of the flow of molecules being released from my body having nothing to do with the impact of the wind on my shooting.

I am interested in learning the wind's impact on a bullets POI at long distances not only as a target shooter but also as a hunter. I read about antelope and mule deer being taken at ranges of 600-1200 yards and that is just amazing to me. Not having much shooting experience at long ranges (350+) my old brain tells me that the wind is going to be my biggest culprit to inaccuracy as I can always factor in drop with reasonable dependability. I know that humidity, temperature and air density play a role also but I am not able to even consider those variables yet.

I spoke with Ernie Stallman of Badger Barrels a while back. He travels all over the world to long range black powder competitions. Amazing that some of these guys shoot black powder rifles to 1000 yards and can hit anything. He emphasizes that wind calculation is everything. They even watch the way a bumble bee will approach a flower as they usually do this facing the incoming wind. They don't employ the use of wind meters either.

I will keep reading and studying in hopes of being somewhat more prepared to shoot at distances beyond 300 yards when I finally recieve my new muzzleloader several months from now. I thank you for your input on this subject.

Doug

[edge]

Many if not most long range hunters use them! As a matter of fact if the premise is that wind closest to you IS the most important then why not have a precise measurement....sure seems better than guessing!

edge.

[Richard]

I our case, we are shooting on an embankment close to the target and can actually see our shots hit the dirt ( actually quarry dust). Therefore the meter is not necessary. The one I saw at the match was just there as a novelty.
Richard

[rossman40]

For the guys that do not have the luxury of spotters any data is good data. I have to agree with both of Edges posts and Ozarks, knowing what you have at the firing point and then looking downrange for signs is important.



While wind is the most important factors the better handhelds are weather stations that will give you temp, baro pressure and humidity for air density. Plus propellant temp may also a factor. I've known longrange guys in the past that good tell you their MV within 10fps and drop tables from just knowing the temp and humidity. Of course that was 30 years ago and now we have higher BC bullets in front of temp stable powders.

[dougedwards]

My gracious! A simple fellow like myself would get mighty confused with all of that stuff spinning around. But I get the idea. Leaves, trees, bushes, even the way birds choose to approach their perch on a limb, they all are good signs of what the wind might be doing at any particular spot. I am looking at picking up a display model Speedtech Skymate wind meter really cheap. Might not be the one that I want to end up with but it should help. Let the education begin. All very helpful information given here.

Doug

[rossman40]

The Speedtech Skymate will get you started. I would step up to one that gives humidity and baro pressure like the Skymaster or Kestrel 3500 but if your getting a super deal on the Skymate (I have seen them as low as $64) go for it. Most of the ones you see with HAZ-MAT teams are Kestrel or Speedtech. I do like the built in cover on the Speedtech units. One thing to check is how low the windspeed reads, the bearings in the impeller are pretty sensitive and if it fails to read below 3 or 4 mph it may be time to change. Also at low windspeeds you may have to start the impeller turning by blowing on it.

There are some cheaper ones like Caldwell, La Crosse and Pro Measure that I would almost call a POS as far as dependibility.

[dougedwards]

Rossman.......what about wind direction? Isn't that almost just as critical as wind speed? However I only see one meter that gives direction and that is the Speedtech Windmate 200. I wonder why the direction of the wind doesn't seem to be nearly as big of a deal as humidity or barometric pressure? Hmmmmmm.............

Doug

[rossman40]

Using a handheld meter to get a good wind direction is tough. You have to turn it to get your highest reading. Basically you hold it out in front of you and turn yourself till the back of the unit is facing upwind and those units with a built in compass will tell you what direction your pointing. You can add the wind tunnel adapter for more accurate readings on direction. Also Kestrel has a tripod adapter they call a vane mount that holds the unit in a wind vane. HAZ-MAT teams will put up a wind sock or flag, look at it to get a direction and then use the handheld to determine speed.

Wind speed and direction are the important factors, in the artillery we called it "drift". Temperature, barometric pressure and humidity determines air density (a velocity or drag correction) with which you can refine your drop data (at least the atmospheric variables). You can look at velocities compared temperature and look for a velocity trend.

Talking temperature, another thing I have often wondered about is in the artillery we would have a thermometer in the propellant charge and constantly update FDC on what we would call "prop temp" so they could calculate that factor in. The M1 tank even has a sensor in the ammo storage compartment to update the on-board ballistic computer of propellant temperature. We have thought all this time that the sabots getting soft was the reason but what if heating the charge in a very warm chamber (140-160 degrees) increased the burn rate which increased the chamber pressure was also a factor in blown sabots. Things to ponder.....

[ozark]

It has been noted a couple of times that the speed of the wind is as important as direction. I agree that it is. The bottom line of all this is to determine the corrective measures needed to compensate. How much should we move the sights or to hold against the wind is, at best an educated guess. I have misjugded the effects of the wind on many occasions and so has every other experienced shooter. With that said, experience helps and with effort one can become a better wind reader. I first look at wind direction to determine which direction the wind will move the bullet. Next, I determine the wind value. If it is a crosswind I consider it to be a full value wind. If it is moving against the direction of fire at a 45 degree angle I call it a half value wind. I break it down into quarter values. Why? My sight correction will be based on a full valure wind minus one half, one quarter etc. If at 600 yards a ten mile per hour full value wind will move the bullet 10 inches (example only) a half value wind will move it only 5 inches. Wind blowing directly with or against the bullet has no value using my guesstimation method.
Now, permit me to point out that when you change bullet weights, bullet speed, shape and configuration, determining how much a certain wind value will move a bullet at a given range becomes only an experienced or inexperienced guess. Still, it is a very interesting subject that one can improve by doing. By mentally calculating the wind and by reaching wrong conclusions one can become pretty good at it. I was considered good at this and was a bold sight changer. The wind can switch from a full value to a half value wind quickly and you have to be alert and make a quick change and then get the shot off before it changes again. I don't wish to bore you so I will not belabor my points. My advice is this: Wind blows your bullet off course and you can learn by close observation and by making good and bad guesses. I question the value of knowing precisely where the wind has the most effect on the bullet but believe strongly in knowing as close as possible what the overall effect will be at a given range. It is not precise but a starting point in accepting that a particular value wind at 300 yards will be roughly double at 600 yards. I suggest making bold changes until you determine your own personal skill at reading the wind. Ozark

[dougedwards]

Ben....... I assume that it is indeed an aquired ability to determine the direction of the wind. I know that sometimes I have tried to determine the direction of a light wind but when the wind comes to a gust it throws me off.

I understand your point that the real impact of wind is the direct sideways affect that the wind has on the traveling bullet. A 10mph wind coming at me at 11 o'clock doesn't have the impact of a wind coming at 9 o'clock. Sometimes it is difficult to determine the difference for me which is why I was hoping to employ the use of a gadget to help.

Maybe if we invent something that would temporarily attach to the barrel proceeding at a 90 degree angle to the barrel in both directions that would tell us the affect of the impact of the wind we would be considered geniuses in the long range shooting world. For example if the wind is blowing at 10mph coming directly from 11 0'clock the gadget would tell us that we should adjust for a direct crosswind (9 o'clock) of 7mph. Of course I am being silly here but the thought just crossed my mind as I read these informative posts.

Just seems that determining the exact direction of the wind would be almost as critical as determing the speed. Also if barametric pressure has an affect on the flight of a bullet because of drag I would assume that a direct headwind would also affect the drop of the bullet also. Geeeesh.......do these long range guys really have to think about all of this before they take a shot?

Doug

[ozark]

If I am understanding Richard correctly they fire a spotter round to peovide a positive witness as to what the wind is doing to the bullet path. Once that is known they make the needed sight adjustments to bring impact to the desired target, If that is so, the spotter round provides all the answers needed to make the correct adjustment. I am as dumb as a sack full of rocks on that paticular game so let us hear from Richard on this one. The better wind dopers are looking at every aspects of what is happening and obtaining a gut feeling on what should be done to compensate. Believe it or not the good coach is working under a lot of stress to make the right corrections because the shooter knows when a error is caused by his performance or by the wrong call from the coach. In individual matches and shooting we must be our own coach and to learn the game it is good to get out there and pit your skills against a swirling tricky windy day. Believe it or not I hoped for a tricky wind because a win there was a ego boost for the coach. Ozark

[dougedwards]

Well I bid on a Speedtech Windmate 200 on ebay and got it for a total of $65 shipped. No humidity or barometric readings but it does give wind direction. This should get me started at 300-500 yard shooting but I will certainly keep in mind that I can't totally depend on this device either.....only allow it to assist by providing average wind speed and direction at the muzzle. We will see.

Doug

[Richard]

Ozark hit the nail on the head! "The proof is in the pudding" If you can actually see your point of impact (which is what we can do) the value of wind speed is irrelevant! What we are more interested in is the direction or sudden changes in velocity at various distances along the bullets path. It doesn't mean a thing if the velocity at (lets just say 20 ft. which you might be able to see with the naked eye on your Kestrel) 20 ft. is 10 mph but that wind sock at 500 yards which was just laying flat out straight, all of a sudden drops down like a limp _ _ _ K! You need flags/socks along the bullets path to see what is happening. Now if you could have a Kestrel wind meter attached to a wind vane (for direction) every 100 yards out to 1,000 and they were all connected to a screen at the shooting point, well, that would be just peachy! However, it is not legal in our game. ;D
In that picture Rossman put on, that shooter is watchingt those flags and then firing sightert shots to actually see what the wind is doing to the bullet. It don't matter if its ten or twenty mph. Its where it hits! Period! Benchrest is a different game from most others.
Richard

[dougedwards]

I purchased a Windmate 200 which gives wind speed and to some degree wind direction. My first observance shooting in a field adjacent to a heavily wooded area is that I apparently over-estimate wind speed on the ground when I am near trees and bushes. I look up and see and hear leaves and limbs moving and estimate a 12 mph wind when the meter on the ground shows 7-8 mph. I haven't tried it at a shooting range yet. The wind meter gives more information than I would have without but, at this point, it seems to be a component that I can live without. However, I am not shooting 400-600 yards either.

Doug