Group size on live deer

[ozark]

Bear with me, I will eventually ask you a question. On a rifle range shooting from a bench at paper we all shoot plenty accurate to kill a deer at ranges out to 200 yards. While hunting we don't have the bench plus many other factors enters the picture. The deer moves about between stationary positions. We are offered a wide variety of angles to send the bullet to a vital area. There is the excitement of trying to make a kill. We may be hunting Indian style or in a blind with a place to support the rifle. On average, how much do you think your group size increase? Does it stay the same, double in size, triple in size, or spread even greater. Looking back over many years of taking deer from a wide variety of positions I think that my average group size may come close to triple that of the bench. Now that I am confined to a shooting shack with an office chair and a padded window to shoot from It is less than double but I can't really count that. If anyone tells me they think their group gets tighter during crunch time I will really wonder what has been wrong with me these last seventy years. What is your guess? I am aware we don't shoot groups on deer. Perhaps a better question would be related to extreme spread from bench to live deer.

[dougedwards]

Depends on whether I am shooting at a moving target. Assuming a standing deer and free handed shooting I would assume that I could put a bullet in a 5" circle at 100 yards if I am not pressed to shoot quickly and my heart isn't pounding too badly.

Doug

[whyohe]

i would say my group opens up 2 to 3+ times as big depending on my position.

[wilmsmeyer]

We had a thread going ahwile back on this topic called....maximum range....or something.

Personally anything over 125 in the field is tough from the rests I will get in the feild. I have passed a few bucks at 200 plus in the last 3 years. When you are using the best rest in the field....like a stick...or the side of a tree... or whatever....the crosshairs TELL YOU you can make the shot. OR tell you that you better not shoot usless your the type that will settle for a lucky score. I'm not that type. Don't want luck involved because with good luck...comes bad luck.

[ozark]

Exceptional response Wilms. If the shooter will listen the crosshairs is the coach and the authority that gives the command to fire or cease fire.

[tar12]

You are dead on Wilms.The cross hairs tell the story for sure.If its not right dont do it!I preach this to 'Q" all of the time.Last fall I watched a doe come out in what seemed like a 100 yds from "Q" and he never dropped the hammer.I sent him a text "Whats up Mr. Vegetarian?""Dad,I could not get the cross hairs to settle down,sometimes he listens! ;D LOL!

[ozark]

Obviously "Q" is coachable and that is a big plus for advancement. In working with tryouts for our Army teams I had several questions I need answers to before selecting a person to train for our team. Can they shoot, can they function under pressure, attitude, will they fit in with other members plus other traits but toping the list was are they coachable. There are two absolutes in shooting: 1. If the aim is wrong don't shoot and 2. If it is right drop the hammer. There is little use in admiring a sight picture until it sours or knowing it is wrong and hoping for luck. Sorry folks, I just can't help it. I have been told that teaching is in my blood. Why? There is great satisfaction in seeing a student go from a tyro to a distinguished marksman.

[dans]

90% of the deer I have killed have been under 50 yards, only 2 at 200 or over. Also if there is any possible way I get a rest of some kind and recently have been carrying a set of shooting sticks. I will do everything I can to help me get a clean killing shot on a deer. I do this because I just don't shoot enough to be an expert marksman and I want to make the most of every shot opprotunity. I will risk spooking a deer in order to get a rest aim. I do practice off hand and have shot deer out to 100 yards this way but not very many. I prefer to be dead sure and its hard to hold a 6 inch group or less offhand at 100 yards for me. A man has to know his limitations.

[boarhog]

Ditto dans!
My two longest shots were 247 steps, and 284 laser ranged yards. The first happened some 30+ years back, when I was too young and dumb to know I shouldn't take the shot. The rifle was my first ML. A Hopkins and Allen .58 cal underhammer, shooting a 260 gr round ball and 100 gr of FFG black powder. The longest shot was last year using a relatively new Savage 7mm-08. I was on the Big Power Line, in a box fire tower stand, plenty of time, and a good rest. Of all the remainder, deer and hogs numbering well into the hundreds, I can remember only a handful that were beyond 100 yds. Most, like dans, were under 50 yds. Even when hunting Mule Deer in Colorado, my shots have all been close. This doesn't mean I don't need accurate rifles. One never knows when one will need to thread a needle between trees, or have that "30 Point Buck" appear way out there.

[Tarheel]

Well, My longest kill was 513yds (laser range finder) with one shot. Again, familiarity with your rifle is essential. I killed two bucks last fall at 320 and 365 both with one shot. I don't know what my group size is but, I feel I can put the first shot in a 8" circle out to 200 free handed and out to 400 with a decent rest

[tcmech]

Where I typically hunt I have stands with rests for any shots over 100 yards, I have shot deer out to 250 yards with my 10ml2 from one of these stands (the last deer I managed to get to stand still when I shot). I have not managed to get a shot at a deer that was not moving for the last 3 years, just bad luck I guess, one deer I had to shoot at (and hit twice), nothing else took more than one shot. In general if the deer will cooperate I can hit it off hand out to about 200 yards in the heart / lung area. From a rest shooting at a paper target I always do better. But that is why I practice all year round.

[ozark]

Would I try a shot out past 200 or 300 yards? So far I haven't had a need or opportunity to do so. Out beyond one has to factor in bullet drop and if there is wind that must be considered. Naturally the stability of the crosshairs would be informing me if a miss or miss hit was likely. I have never got into figuring the drop simply because I have never expected to be taking a shot where drop had to be calculated. Certainly many rifles are capable of taking deer out past 500 yards but where I hunt a chance of seeing one that far isn't likely. 200 yards is the Max.where I hunt and me and my 243 can handle that. So far, my longest has been under 180 yards.
I have dreamed about hunting out west and needing to shoot across a canyon at long range. But, that isn't going to be in my future.

[davewolf]

Just my 2-cents. When in doubt don't take the shot. My practice on groundhogs this summer, taught me to think through the shot. Even with my .50 cal, especially my .50 cal. I make sure that I'm not anticipating the shot. I use a rest whenever possible and try to stay focused on the animal. I wait till the x-hair settle and then shoot. Too long of a wait, the more the x-hairs wobble. Too quick of a shot and usually it means I'm not concentrating enough.
If the scope is still on my target, after the shot, I feel confident that I have a cleaning chore on my hands. I still take a deep breathe and leave it half out. Worked on well over 100 whitetails for me!
Have a great day!
Dave

[ozark]

Finding what works for you is the whole idea of learning. davewolf, your 2-cents is worth more than that by far.

[whyohe]

i guess this is why i use sand bags. IMO, for what its worth, when you are shooting in the woods the recoil will push your shoulder back and every ones shoulder is slightly different and people hold different. the lead slead is good for checking the gun. it removes thoes differences. but when it comes to shooting you need to try and shoot like you would in the woods. i get funny looks at the range when i sit with my back to a pole and shoot and then i stand next to the pole and use it as a rest as i would in the woods. but it lets me know the differences my position makes. that is why when im on sand bags i want the tightest goup as possible, to shrink that group on live deer and other positions.

[deadeye]

i have never had a chance to print a group(on a deer) or had to matter in fact ;D ;D if you put in your time & are dead serious about hunting/shooting-it makes no difference if you are at a high level about your shooting,from the bench=part1> then field conditions= part2,part 2 should be simulated very similiar to part 1,hold pressure etc& discard the emotions but pay attention to the wind! only mash when the sub-conscious lets you!

[chuck41]

If you are getting good groups on live deer then you need to find a more effective caliber. Mine is usually a one-per-customer event.

Seriously, for every deer I shoot at I pass up a bunch! If the range and other conditions are not right I wait for the next opportunity. The limit in AR is 4 deer and I spend thirty or so days in the woods each year. Wife and I have a tough time eating more than a couple per year anyway.

Back when I only got a couple weekends a year, it was different, but then back then I rarely ever saw deer. Now seeing from one to 10 or more a day is not uncommon at all. I take 10 or 20 pictures for every one I actually shoot at. Once you take the shot the day turns from a fun relaxing day in the woods to a chore of dragging, cleaning, and packaging deer meat.