|
Post by rlp10ml on Jan 11, 2009 21:58:40 GMT -5
I seen this on another board.Does anyone know anything about this?? Is this just a re-branded 10ML-II or a new gun all together? Says it has a 26" barrel but the standard 10ML-II has a 24" Also has an added recoil pad.. ... twist is the same. Also notice the 2 swivel studs up front. Savage 10 Muzzleloader ML BP Crafted with the same meticulous attention to detail as the Savage's legendary centerfire rifles, this all-new .50-cal. muzzleloader is capable of exceeding velocities of 2,200 fps with more than 2,600 foot pounds of knockdown energy. Plus, it boasts the accuracy to shoot less than 1.5" groups at 100 yds. with Blackhorn 209, Triple 7, Shockey Gold, or White Hots. Savage's Accu Trigger gives you the flexibility to set the trigger pull to your personal preference without having to pay a gunsmith. When maintained and properly adjusted, it cannot be accidentally discharged, even if jarred or dropped. The rugged Next G-1 camo stock is outfitted with a recoil absorbing P.A.D. pad. The 26" stainless steel barrel has a 1 in 24" twist. www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/pod/horizontal-pod.jsp?id=0065969&navCount=27&parentId=cat20815&masterpathid=&navAction=push&cmCat=MainCatcat20712-cat20720-cat20815&parentType=index&indexId=cat20815&rid=
|
|
|
Post by joe21a on Jan 12, 2009 9:27:31 GMT -5
Wounder why the price is so much above the other ML that Savage makes.
|
|
|
Post by dwhunter on Jan 12, 2009 11:02:52 GMT -5
That's probably just Cabelas, they're high on everything.
|
|
|
Post by missedagain on Jan 12, 2009 18:43:28 GMT -5
Warning: Black powder,Pyrodex,Triple7,Blackhorn,White hot, or American Pioneer black-powder substitutes are the only safe and suitable propellents for use in ANY muzzleloading firearm.
page 126 Cabelas 2009 Shooting Catalog
|
|
|
Post by missedagain on Jan 12, 2009 18:47:34 GMT -5
"Things that make you go hmmm..."
Oh yea, it's right under the add for the Savage 10 ML BP
|
|
|
Post by missedagain on Jan 12, 2009 18:52:55 GMT -5
I've got to agree with DWhunter- Cabelas must have been a little "High" when they published this catalog
|
|
|
Post by missedagain on Jan 13, 2009 5:11:46 GMT -5
I sent Cabelas an Email this morning: My question is: Why is Cabelas printing inaccurate warnings in their 2009 Shooting Catalog? On page 126: Warning: Black powder,Pyrodex,Triple7,Blackhorn,White hot, or American Pioneer black-powder substitutes are the only safe and suitable propellents for use in ANY muzzleloading firearm. I'm the owner of a Savage ML10 II that was designed and manufactured to shoot smokless powder safely. It does so. Jeff Besemer- former Cabelas customer
|
|
|
Post by Buckrub on Jan 13, 2009 9:14:36 GMT -5
Savage.com 2009 Catalogue doesn't mention this gun at all. Yet the barrel is 26" long, so what ELSE is different? There's more here than just advertising/marketing. Something is afoot..........I R Badly curious.
|
|
|
Post by olegburn on Jan 13, 2009 9:35:39 GMT -5
Ramrod guide looks different. Two swivel studs. Different recoil pad (more like their new ones) Package Savages didn't use to come with open sights also. Savage made a deal with Cabelas(for Cabelas only) ?
|
|
|
Post by Buckrub on Jan 13, 2009 10:21:15 GMT -5
I have emailed Cabela's Customer Service for an answer. With all the money I give Dick Cabela, he better answer!!!
|
|
|
Post by Buckrub on Jan 13, 2009 11:13:17 GMT -5
Here is their reply. I left the guy's name off. Clearly, this is just a marketing decision by Savage (and NOT a dumb one either, I'd think) to sell Savage ML's but be able to sell it in EVERY state to anyone. So they made one just for Dick Cabela!!! That's why it's not in the Savage Catalog. However, please note that the product specs given say 24", not 26", so I wonder if it is actually just the same model but mistakenly says 26" in catalog?
The only remaining question is to email/call/ask Savage if you buy one of these, can you shoot smokeless powder in it, and see what they say.
________________________________________
Thank you for contacting Product Information at Cabela's. Due to liability reasons were are required to state the Warning that is listed on the Savage 10 ML BP Muzzleloader Item:IK-216923. And the reason this is not listed on Savage's website or anywhere but Cabela's is because this is a Cabela's Exclusive model that we only carry, but provided by Savage Arms. I have listed the product specifications we have on file for this particular firearm.
Product specifications: Caliber: .50 209 shotshell primer ignition Overall length: 44 inches Barrel length: 24 inches Weight: 7 3/4 pounds Stock: Synthetic, Realtree Hardwoods® HD camo pattern with positive checkering, dual pillar bedding. Sights: Adjustable fiber optic; green rear sight fiber optic red front sight. Drilled and tapped for scope mounts. Rifling Rate of Twist: 1 in 24 Features: New AccuTriggerTM, Stainless barreled action, heavy contour, button-rifled barrel with crowned muzzle. Sling swivel studs installed. AccuTrigger is user adjustable down to 1 1/2 pound of pull weight.
I hope this helps you out, if you have anymore questions please contact us back. Thanks for visiting Cabelas.com and Have a Great Day.
|
|
|
Post by craigf on Jan 13, 2009 11:35:32 GMT -5
If the email is correct another difference is the trigger. It goes down to 1.5 pounds. The normal MLII accutrigger only goes down to 2.5 pounds, unless Savage changed it as well.
|
|
|
Post by Buckrub on Jan 13, 2009 11:47:56 GMT -5
I replied and asked about the barrel length and got this reply: (It now seems that Savage has made a "Cabela's Only" ML and doesn't advertise it anywhere else. The only remaining question now is to Savage "Will the Cabela's ML shoot Smokeless?")
Thank you for contacting Product Information at Cabela's. I show that the barrel is actually 26" and our product specifications misprinted and put the twist rate number in there on accident. I am not showing any additional information than what I listed and what is on the website. You are correct the best option might be to contact Savage directly for more information.
|
|
|
Post by fowlplay on Jan 13, 2009 13:09:07 GMT -5
"Due to liability reasons".......... Give me a break! If it looks and walks like duck then it is a duck. Lets get serious. Does anybody really believe that Savage would use there 10ML name for a black powder gun that could only handle black powder? If this gun blew up with smokeless powder the lawyers would have a field day with Savage naming it basically the same name of there smokeless rifle. Savage could of named it the Savage Smoking Accurizer, but they didn't. Cabelas and the others are not ready to sell a smokeless muzzleloader because of the "put your eye out theory." IMO this is just a business move between two companies to make money. Steve
|
|
|
Post by Buckrub on Jan 13, 2009 13:34:57 GMT -5
I agree. But........ "a business move between two companies just to make money", is----regardless of how poorly Capitalism has come to be viewed in America today----not a bad thing per se.
I don't think it's a poor BUSINESS decision on Cabela's part really. They had two choices. Well, first they had a choice to sell Savage ML's or not. But once they decide to do it, they had two choices:
A) Sell it and advertise "This gun will shoot smokeless powder but you can't do that legally in NM, CO, MI, etc etc"......or
B) Sell it as BP only to all comers, in any state.
I just called Savage New Product sales person and left a voice mail and asked if this Cabela's exclusive gun will or will not shoot smokeless powder safely.....and if not, why not. Hopefully they'll call back with the answer.
|
|
|
Post by 1shot1kill on Jan 13, 2009 16:40:15 GMT -5
Alright since the cat is out of the bag, I guess I can shed some light on this subject now. Per Brain Herrick, VP of Savage, in a conversation about 4-6 weeks ago, I was infomred of the Cabela's deal.
Basically, here is what the deal is:
The Savage 10ML-II is still and will continue to be the 10-ML-II.
The model that Cabela's will be selling, the 10ML-BP, will be a special run, strictly for Cabela's and Cabela's only. If Bass Pro, want's to sell it as well, Savage may accomidate them as well, with the same 10ML-BP as well, but only time will tell, if Bass Pro will sell it that model or not.
On the 10ML-BP, the barrel will be 26", the new breech plug will be hex cut to require a 3/8" socket to remove the breech plug. Now other changes to the breech plug. The barrel will be stamped with the standard, use black powder and/or black powder substitues only, bravo sierra on it, for pure liability reasons. Cabela's would not accept the deal without it. I don't recall if he mentioned that it had the new Accu-Stock on it or not, but I don't believe it does. I think it is the new style stock that looks like the Accu-Stock on the outside.
The 10ML-BP is still built off the same action as the 10ML-II, and the barrel it the same grade stainless and chrome-moly as the 10ML-II as well. The Breech Plug is still made of 4140 chrome-moly as well. So to answer all your questions, yes it can still shoot smokeless powder.
|
|
|
Post by missedagain on Jan 13, 2009 17:47:23 GMT -5
Thanks for the update one shot: My problem is with the wording Cabelas has chosen,In their warning, to use with the marketing of this model. It does not specifiy this particular model. It says ANY muzzle loader is unsafe to use with smokeless! Sorry,but that sounds like parroting of add speak from one of other muzzleloading manufactures. IMO- There is enough dissention going on between Traditional,and inline;smokless/blackpowder, scopes/iron sights/fiber optics . IT WAS A STUPID THING TO PRINT
|
|
|
Post by rbinar on Jan 13, 2009 18:37:47 GMT -5
8-)I'm just glad that a major catalog is carrying the 10ML. I think that gives the rifle some much needed political acceptance.
|
|
|
Post by paulslund on Jan 13, 2009 22:14:46 GMT -5
8-)I'm just glad that a major catalog is carrying the 10ML. I think that gives the rifle some much needed political acceptance. I don't agree with that, actually. The only way it would gain political acceptance is if they continued to sell it as a smokeless powder muzzy. Right now, anyone who buys it will only use black powder/subs because of the warnings. No different than a TC, traditions, etc. Just my 2 cents Paul.
|
|
|
Post by missedagain on Jan 14, 2009 5:11:43 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by 153 on Jan 14, 2009 7:01:59 GMT -5
There is also another Warning in the T/C catalog never to mix powders.If one were to follow this rule one could never use the pellets as they are black powder on one end to help with ignition if I am not mistaken.
|
|
|
Post by whyohe on Jan 14, 2009 7:53:24 GMT -5
lets face it there are lots of idiots out there. we hear and see reports of people using smokless in their T/Cs and such. putting the BP ONLY on there is a security. if SAVAGE is smart the will just change the engraving on the barrel to make CABELAS happy. 1shot, i hope you are right, cause i personally just couldnt do it JUST IN CASE they changed some thing SLIGHTLY.
looks pretty though!
|
|
|
Post by bigmoose on Jan 14, 2009 9:03:01 GMT -5
I say to Cabelas welcome to the party.
No one really thinks Savage made this rifle weaker.
Since there isn't a Cabelas in So. Florida I will have to wait till one of you folks, buy one to get a report. I hope the stock is an improvement over the one Savage sold as an after market item, I bought one, and got rid of it as fast as I could.
|
|
|
Post by Buckrub on Jan 14, 2009 10:21:50 GMT -5
I have thought about this at length for the last few days. Backing up and trying to look at the 30,000 foot level on this issue, I have to think that maybe 'we' smokeless ML owners should maybe just keep quieter and mind our business. Yeah, we want to be 'proud' of what we have and we want to argue with those who say it isn't safe, because we know better. And we know what the benefits are. Thus, we do the normal human reaction of bragging on our purchase choice (Ford/Chevy, Suzuki/Honda, Ruger/Winchester, etc etc ad nauseum). We believe we did right, and we believe we own good stuff. And we'll tell the world, and argue with them if they don't believe it.
I am sure we are right on this.
However, I got to thinking........(leads to problems usually, but anyway........), what if Knight, T/C, CVA, all started making a smokeless model of ML? They'd either make one that would use either smokeless or BP (like Savage) or they'd make two product lines. Let's assume for a minute that there are 4 or 5 manufacturers doing so.
Now, there starts to be a lot of talk about these things. SHOT show talk, advertising talk, Petersen's magazine talk, Sports Afield talk, and Hunting America starts to see that a smokeless ML is generally available, and most likely safe, since these trusted Manufacturers all make it, right?
Sounds good, right?
I wonder.
I would expect the anal Game and Fish Commissions of so many backwards states to all of a sudden begin to look at these new 'smokeless muzzleloaders' and issue a ruling on whether they are allowed. Truth be told, in Arkansas (and other states) they are allowed simply because they are not addressed!!! Oh, I think they know they're making smokeless allowable, but it's much better to just let a small tiny sleeping dog lie there than it is to wake him up and hear him start barking.
My biggest fear would be that some new Commissioner takes office and has been approached by his constituents about this 'new' ML and talk starts, and regulations get proposed, and then regulations get passed........and it becomes illegal. I can see that happening, knowing how state game laws get passed, and why.
So yeah, T/C and Cabela's and everyone else SHOULD be advertising such as "Black Powder is the ONLY acceptable powder to safely use in any muzzleloader OTHER THAN A SAVAGE 10-MLII" but I ain't sure I want to start seeing that in print.
So, I guess I'd rather be a minority, quiet owner of the World's Neatest Muzzleloading Device and Method, than to be 'right' and be inevitably shut out!
What this REALLY means is that Savage made a pretty substantial business decision when they marketed this thing originally as smokeless, and we should be REALLY proud of them. Had the thing "taken off" and resulted in copycats with all other manufacturers, it is POSSIBLE that a kneejerk affect would have occurred and they'd have doo-kayed in their mess kit! Maybe not, but it is dang sure possible and worth considering. Yes, I know that there are wildcat smokeless guns, and custom guns, but no other actual mass manufacturer other than Savage.
|
|
|
Post by rbinar on Jan 14, 2009 10:27:01 GMT -5
8-)Is this a post about Cabela's selling the 10ML, or about how many lies have been put in print about it?
The lies will go on no matter our input, so I suggest we let Cabela's quake in the corner if they wish. We should also go on about our business. If someone wants to know the truth it's available to them to find.
|
|
|
Post by Flatland Hunter on Jan 14, 2009 10:47:06 GMT -5
My only questions are... if they changed the BP to finally use something practical, a socket, what else did they finally change... the stupid loosen rear lug bolt to remove rifle bolt; do you still need vent liners (in the new one); can we get and use the new plug in our MLII's (if it is vented); how much better is this stock and is it available for purchase; and who really wants another 2" on the MLII, it is already heavy enough, nose heavy at that!
|
|
|
Post by Flatland Hunter on Jan 14, 2009 11:05:34 GMT -5
Maybe we oughta review the 10ML-BP... seeing as how we all own it's elder brother...
|
|
|
Post by craigf on Jan 14, 2009 11:08:07 GMT -5
Buckrub, you make a good point. I live in the gun hating state of Illinois. Rifles are not allowed for hunting because of how far they can shoot. If someone told that powers that be Savages can shoot accurately to 350 yards, they would be illegal in a heart beat.
Personally, I am just happy that Savage will be selling more of these fine muzzleloaders.
|
|
|
Post by jeremylong on Jan 14, 2009 11:23:07 GMT -5
Actually this may be a smart marketing move assuming that it is still smokeless capable. As crazy as it sounds, when I try to explain to people I am shooting the savage smokeless, the instant reaction several times has been that they do not want it because they dont want to be constrained to smokeless only. Bare with me here. It takes explaining to them that they can shoot BP subs out of the gun. Now, with savage going mainstream and advertising a BP gun, maybe it will get more peoples feet wet with the Savage gun. My best guess....
Savage needs to make a hex head BP and add a third pillar from the factory and be done with it.
|
|
|
Post by 1shot1kill on Jan 14, 2009 16:23:46 GMT -5
As I stated before, the 10ML-II is stil and will continue to be the 10ML-II, specifially designed to shoot smokeless powder.
The only differences in the 10ML-II and the 10ML-BP, other than the model designation, are: - A 26" barrel - New style (Non Accu-Stock) stock with new camo pattern. - An approximately 50% longer ram rod thimble, that has 2 screws securing it to the barrel instead of 1. - A 3/8" hex head Breech Plug.
Everything else is still the same as on the 10ML-II, such as: 416 SS & 4140 chrome-moly grade barrels, 1:24" twist, 4140 chrome-moly breech plugs, vent liners, 2 pillars and action crews, Accu-trigger, 209 primer bolt head, fiber optics sights, drilled & tapped for the same base mounts, etc.
I was assured that the 10ML-BP's heart and soul is the 10ML-II, and it is just as capable of shooting smokeles as the 10ML-II is. The ONLY reason for the black powder and black powder subsitute warning stamped on the barrel, is strictly and purely for liability reasons. Cabela's would not accept the deal to sale them UNLESS the 10ML-BP was stamped with such a warning. That is why Savage decide to call it the 10ML-BP and NOT the 10ML-II, because Savage refused to put such a bravo sierra warning on the 10ML-II. Savage is in the business to sale guns, period. In this case they compromised with Cabela's to seal the deal. It will be in the neighborhood of a 25% sales increase in Savage's muzzlelaoder sales annually. Savage most have taken that into account when they made the deal with Cabela's.
|
|