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Post by whyohe on Aug 27, 2009 15:28:19 GMT -5
how many of you have a rifle that started as a pistol cartridge. i have a 44mag lever action marlin. unfortunately they don't like the same load. my rifle likes a 200 grn bullet and the revolver likes a 240 grn bullet. i have taken this deer hunting and have gotten 2 deer with it. i now have a 357 mag and was tossing around getting a lever action marlin in that too. but would you use it for deer. i know you get more velocity out of a rifle with the right powder but do you think it would do the job? I know shot placement is key but what if it was off by just a bit do you think it could do the job,would it go threw the shoulder? what other pistol cartridges are out there in rifle form? not just lever action. as you can tell i have alot of time on my hands to think this crap up!  |
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Post by Rifleman on Aug 27, 2009 18:58:23 GMT -5
A 357 mag lever gun would be fine for deer, just add a 158 gr JSP and go hunt! Other rifles in pistol cartridges just off the top of my noggin. Well you have the Ruger semi autos in 44 mag, discontinued now but came in a rotary clip version and a tube fed. Also was produced at 2 different times. All tubes feds are old models, but rotary clip models could be old or the newer version. Also there are the New England and Rossi single shots. The Single shots in 357 mag are interesting as one can ream them out to 357 maximum and get a pretty quick screamer. Not as simple as it seems but doable with a little research. Marlin camp carbines in 9mm and 45 acp, but not legal for deer in most locales. Then my favorite but I don't have one yet. An AR-15in 458 socom. This is a legal deer gun in Indiana. Maybe not in your state, but with a simple upper switch you are ready. One can load just about any .458 300 gr bullet at around 2000 fps for a real nice deer rifle. Very close to 45-70 ballistics. Uses same mags as the 223 but now the double stack mags work like a single. I think you can get 10 rds or so in a 30 rd mag. A 458 socom upper , flat top, with a low power variable is an awesome deer rifle. One day I would love to be on a stand with one and a pocket full of doe tags.  |
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Aug 28, 2009 4:56:34 GMT -5
I have my eye on a .357 mag New England single shot. I plan on a leupold 2 X 7 scope. It's really amazing what this cartridge is capable of out of a rifle. You can push light bullets like a 110 gr HP at about 2400 fps! For deer, why wouldn't a 158 or 180 gr XTP in the 1700-1800 fps range not be the cats a$$? It will do more out of a rifle then the 357 Maximum could ever do out of a revolver.
Recoil must be tamer then tame. A very neat gun. It doesn't hurt either that I have about 1,000 brass and enough components to out last my life.
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Post by billc on Aug 28, 2009 9:45:47 GMT -5
Wilms,
I have a Leupold European 2x8 with 30mm tube. I liked it so well I took the 1.75 x 7 Leupold off of a .308 and gave it to my brother. I'd be interested in your comparison of the 2 scopes.
Bill
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Aug 28, 2009 18:23:47 GMT -5
If I had 'em I'd compare 'em!! ;D
I have a VX-1 in 2 X 7 on my slug gun and I like it. Nothing great, it just works and it's fairly clear.
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Post by chuck41 on Aug 29, 2009 10:05:32 GMT -5
I have an old Win 92 that a friend gave me many years ago. It no blueing, a broken stock and broken firing pin. Cleaned and reblued it with a cold blue that worked pretty well. I rebuilt the firing pin by brazing a stainless rod into it then cutting it to length and polishing it. Glued the stock back together with eopxy and you can't tell it was ever split. It was a 32-20, but the barrel was so badly pitted it was useless so I got the great idea of sending the barrel out and having it rebored as a .357Mag. Got it back and had a unique one-of-a-kind rifle that matched my Colt Python for bullets. Shot great, and still does. That was in '81. About a year later Marlin started making a .357 Mag and I could have kept the antique original and had the .357 as well for less than the re-bore job.  That rifle shoots about like a 22 as far as recoil is concerned. Great for teaching a youngster to hunt and it is pretty accurate for a lever gun. Will do a number on Arkansas whitetails. I reload a 180gr Speer flat nose and 158gr SP bullets for it, but 158 or 180gr XTPs would work great. There is a huge number of good bullets in the 140 to 180gr range available that will work very nicely. Just have to remember to stay with a flat or round point because of the tubular magazine. With all the good .358" choices I wish I could get a 40/357 sabot for my .40 muzzleloader! |
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Post by boarhog on Aug 29, 2009 15:34:51 GMT -5
I love my Ruger 44 Carbine. When the first one I had was stolen, I found another at the Hot Springs Gun Show, and coughed up the cash! The only problem is that it likes a bit different load than my Super Blackhawk. I have looked at the various lever action models, and I would love to have one, but that keeps getting pushed down on the priority list. Especially with The Bride doing the pushing!!!
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Post by chuck41 on Aug 29, 2009 20:10:16 GMT -5
Years ago I had a guy that offered to sell me his 444 lever carbine. I have kicked myself for thirty years for not buying it.
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Post by Rifleman on Aug 30, 2009 4:27:05 GMT -5
As a side note, I have my concerns using the Hornady xtps out of carbines in 357 or 44 for deer. Years ago when they first made the xtp I bought some and loaded them to 1600 fps ( this was a 44, 180 gr xtp) the bullet box had a note in it from the factory this bullet was to be loaded at 1400 fps or below. I thought oh pooie it will be fine. I was wrong, I shot 3 deer with it and all 3 bullets blew up. Killed the deer but I learned a lesson. I really prefer Jacketed soft points for deer in carbines.
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Aug 30, 2009 6:27:18 GMT -5
Rifleman,
I'm not surprised at your comments. I would add that if the XTP's were used, the 180 in .357 and the 300 in .429 would be OK. The few deer I killed with my Knight using 300 gr .429 at 1600-1700 fps were pass thru's. 180's in a .357 would be hard to drive faster then 1600....with impacts past 25 yds under 1500.
This rings a bell with other bullets and other forums....namely trying to make 250 XTPs a deer bullet at 2500 fps in the Savage. I dabbled with 300 XTP's last year (.452) at 2500 fps and killed 5 deer with 5 shots. They were a combo of bombs and peices that made it through. On deer, they seemed to be OK on any angle but destructive. (at my speeds and impacts all under 100 yds) On a moose or elk shoulder might prove a messy disaster at high speed.
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Post by whyohe on Aug 30, 2009 8:07:39 GMT -5
RM, 2 years ago i shot a deer with my 44 mag and thought it was facing me and here it was butt first. i got some loads that shoot 1950 FPS with a 200 grn XTP and it went threw the right rear quarter high near the joint and it went all the way to the heart and put a 1/4 inch cut in it. now i didnt find the bullet but it was getting dark and i didnt take my time so i really cant say how well it held together, but if it made it that far i'd say it held together ok or i just got lucky with a fragment. that is all i can say on the 200 grn dont know much on the 180. but as we see the 240 will frag at high speeds but the 300 would do better so maybe this is the case here.
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Post by chuck41 on Aug 30, 2009 21:34:39 GMT -5
The 180gr FP Speer bullet will not expand much at .357mag speeds. I use that same bullet in a .35 Rem and it holds up really well at a velocity several hundred fps higher. Probably won't expand much at .357 mag velocities unless it hits a major bone. I would suspect that for deer the 158 gr soft point bullets would work really well up to about 100yds and probably is a better choice as far as expansion is concerned. I have picked up a lot of fragments of the XTPs from my ML10 at 2300 to 2750 fps in deer. They do tend to make a bit of a mess, but they are very effective killers.
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Post by farmallm51 on Aug 30, 2009 21:39:14 GMT -5
Wilmsmeyer,
Interested in the 300 grain XTP load that you dabbled with last year. I'm planning on trying them this season. What powder and amount did you use? Thanks
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Post by dans on Aug 30, 2009 22:21:28 GMT -5
The 158 gr. Remington jacketed soft point driven with a top charge of Lil=gun will get about all you can wish for with the .357 mag. It will kill deer and will exit. This is the exact load my 8 year old grandson will be hunting with out of his handirifle. He can keep them all in the kill zone at 50 yards and his stand is set up so that 40 is the longest shot he can take. Used with in reason the .357 mag will work.
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Aug 31, 2009 5:10:26 GMT -5
70 gr H4198 and MMP HPH12 sabot lit by a FED209A..
Dans, how much was your handy rifle? The one I priced was $210 new.
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Post by dans on Aug 31, 2009 5:49:35 GMT -5
wilms 239 and 7% sales tax. Then 40 more for a youth stock set. Grandsons are expensive.
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Post by farmallm51 on Aug 31, 2009 6:10:41 GMT -5
Thanks Wilms!
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Post by artjr338wm on Aug 31, 2009 11:00:54 GMT -5
Boarhog,
I know what you mean about the Ruger. Here in my home state of IN, several years ago they began allowing rifles chambered in striate walled calibers like 44mag, and 500S&W to be used during deer season. I thought, great now I can have a 200yrd deer rifle that is accurate, cheap and easy reload and shoot. Unfortunately Ruger discontinued making their bolt gun chambered in 44mag and the OTC ones left in my area literally flew off the gun racks. I'm guessing here but I'll bet I can reload 50 44mags for less than the cost of 10 OTC 12ga sabot slugs, the 44mag reloads would be capable of far better accuracy than the Sabot slugs.
My only option now is a lever action in 44mag, or a single shot in 500 S&W. The law limits caliber selection by length of cartridge, so unfortunately the awesome performing 460 S&W is to long and not allowed by the length law, or so a IN DNR officer told me while recounting a story where he sighted a hunter during the first season they allowed the new HG rounds to be used for hunting with and taking a nice buck with his Marlin in 45/70 which is rifle round waaaaaay past the cartridge length limint law.
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Post by Rifleman on Aug 31, 2009 12:35:40 GMT -5
Art better look at the law again as there is NO requirement that the pistol cartridge in a rifle has to be a straight wall cartridge. There is a min lenght, a max length, and a min caliber, but like I said no straight wall or bottle neck restriction. Which is why an ar-15 in 458 socom is legal in Indiana. Expensive? yes, but legal and gets essentaily 45-70 ballistics. So no 460's in a rifle, you are correct there, but the window is a little more open then you might have thought.
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Post by artjr338wm on Sept 1, 2009 16:56:37 GMT -5
Rileman,
Thanks for clearing that up for me. The conversation I describrbe took place at gun range I seldome visit as I do not like its layout or the way it is constructed.
I did not wish to argue the point with the officer, as I know for certain that friends of mine use Single shot T/Cs chambered in bottle necked cardtrages every year, so I was certain they were not breaking the law by doing so.
Learned a loooooong time ago, it doesn't pay to try to tell a LEO the rules of his job, especially a DNR officer unless absolutely nessasary to do so.
BTW, would it not be a cheaper option to shoot a NEA in 500 S&W than a AR-15 in 458 SOCOM, as the 500 S&W has got to be (guessing here) close to a 458 SOCOM.
Thanks,
Arthur.
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Post by northny on Sept 1, 2009 20:39:56 GMT -5
another vote for the 180 grain in 357 maximum in both contender and revolver. I had both good (several) and bad (2) results with 158 grain JHPs in maximum on deer. I recovered all the deer with 158, but is was too light to take speeds it was going at. If it hbone going in, it was a problem. 180 has always been one and done.
I would love to have a lever gun in 357 max. May have to do the single shot route one of these days.
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Post by boarhog on Sept 1, 2009 23:54:24 GMT -5
I realize that some folks have good luck with 180 and 200 gr bullets in 44 Mag, but I feel better with 240-300 gr. One guy I used to hunt with swore by the factory 200 gr Winchester Silver Tip load, and killed a heap o deer with it. But of the several deer I help skin, none had a hole in the off side. I want holes on BOTH sides! Another factor is that the 200 grain guy will only have deer to shoot at, while I will be very likely to have shots at sizable hogs. I can't remember a deer season when I didn't shoot a hog, if not several. I have had good performance with 240 gr XTP in my pistol @ 1450 fps MV, but prefer a heavier bullet in my Carbine. The last several deer, and 3 hogs, fell to the 275 gr Rem HP. This year, I have some Hornady Factory Evolution 225 gr and some 265 gr FTX handloads to try. I am anxious to see how they perform.
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Post by Rifleman on Sept 2, 2009 9:47:27 GMT -5
Art I believe the case dimensions on the 500 make it too long to be legal, but you can check that out.
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Post by mike3132 on Sept 3, 2009 20:41:01 GMT -5
Art I believe the case dimensions on the 500 make it too long to be legal, but you can check that out. I believe the 500 is legal in Ind but the 460 is not. Mike |
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Post by rossman40 on Sept 3, 2009 21:29:12 GMT -5
Art, Ruger brought the 77/44 back to life this year. Maybe because Indiana changed their rules and the market was back.
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Post by buckey on Sept 4, 2009 19:27:33 GMT -5
I use a .357 Max in a 15 inch Encore with 180gr XTP Hornadys. With a dose of Lilgun they will do 2100FPS (NO B.S.) They WILL SUCK THE LIFE OUT OF A MICHIGAN WHITETAIL. When Mich changes the law to allow the use of straight walled casings the Max will be my choice in a TC Encore rifle. Mad Max at it's BEST.
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Post by deadeer on Jan 7, 2010 14:13:55 GMT -5
I use a .357 Max in a 15 inch Encore with 180gr XTP Hornadys. With a dose of Lilgun they will do 2100FPS (NO B.S.) They WILL SUCK THE LIFE OUT OF A MICHIGAN WHITETAIL. When Mich changes the law to allow the use of straight walled casings the Max will be my choice in a TC Encore rifle. Mad Max at it's BEST...
Enough said! Done deal for me now. A 22-24inch rifle barrel should really do the trick. Thanks fellas!
Jay
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