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Post by saskshooter on Sept 22, 2022 14:56:08 GMT -5
Hey all,
I've got a smokeless Precision Rifle Muzzleloading/Cecil Epp .45 build that seems to be cursed- I've only found ONE bullet it will shoot accurately with, and everything else I shoot will either keyhole/tumble at 100 yards, or shoot shotgun-patterns (8-12" groups).
The gun shoots very well with Precision Rifle (Cecil's) 310gr Dynamo bullets and 4198, but they are very heavy and slow, terribly expensive, and they haven't performed well on game as they don't seem to expand well in my experience.
In .452" diameter I have tried the following:
275gr Arrowhead XLD's
275gr Arrowhead LR's
285gr Powerbelt Aerotip ELR's
250gr Hornady SST's
250gr T/C Shockwaves
200gr Hornady FTX's
AND THEY ALL TUMBLED
I also tried saboted 200gr T/C .40cal Shockwaves, and they shot very poorly, but didn't tumble.
I'm using a Swinglock smooth sizer, and have tried sizing anywhere from nearly loose up to stand-on-the-ramrod tight with no avail. I have tried knurling. I have tried thinning the bases of the bullets on a lathe to get them to obdurate better. I have tried wads, double wads, quadruple wads.
This gun seems to defy the laws of physics- as bullet weight and length increases, more twist rate is required, however this silly musket does the opposite- will shoot great with a 310gr, but sends 200, 250, 275gr, and 285gr bullets out sideways! The 275's and 285's are on the long side, however both the 250's and 200's are far shorter than the 310, but they just won't stabilize no matter what I try!
Any ideas...?
And before you say "Just shoot the Dynamos", not only are they very heavy and slow, terribly expensive, and haven't performed well on game for me, but Cecil has been pretty rude to me a few times (even shouted at me on the phone, told me that somehow I managed to cause tight spots in the brand-new barrel I bought from him because "it was perfect when it left my shop so if it has problems, you caused them!" so I'd like to avoid giving him any more money...
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Post by smokeeter on Sept 22, 2022 18:20:55 GMT -5
Sorry for the troubles you're experiencing. Cecil can be a treat for sure have you tried using a bore scope to check the barrel? If there are tight or loose spots in the barrel I would think he should be receptive to resolving the issue, with the exception of a user caused barrel bulge or ring from a double load/charge.
As to the tumbling or keyholing you're discribing , that is usually a result of poor obturation. Your loads might require a kick in the a$$, duplexing will definitely help with that or maybe a faster powder. Also you never mentioned what powder or charge you were using. Slower burning powders like 4198 work better with heavier bullets ( like the Dynamos) but any 300 grain bullet should suffice. even the lowly 300 XTP
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Post by saskshooter on Sept 22, 2022 18:34:28 GMT -5
Hey smokeeter, thanks for the reply!
When I got my barrel from Cecil, before I shot it at all it had 3 distinct tight pots in it from factory, one at the halfway point, and two about 3" apart right at the breech. It actually got tighter from muzzle-to-breech! The last 4" of barrel were almost too tight to seat bullets in, but when I explained it to him, he claimed it was "perfectly smooth, and even" when it left his shop... I used a borescope on it and found it was brutally rough inside, and full of tooling marks.
Had nothing to lose, so I did my research and spoke with some older 'smiths about it, then hot-hand-lapped the barrel. Took me quite a few laps melted and re-cast before I got a smooth internal finish, but after that it loads smoothly without issue, and shoots beautifully... just only with the 310gr Dynamos.
I have been using 4198 the whole time, perhaps that the issue... I'm really trying to avoid messing with duplex loads. I had tried Reloder 7, which is a touch faster, but couldn't get any ignition with it no matter how much I tried. Maybe I'll see if I can try an H110 booster when I've got time. Or switch to something along the lines of CFE BLK or the like, if I can find any.
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Post by hunter on Sept 22, 2022 19:49:05 GMT -5
Might try 32 to 35 grains of n110.
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Post by lwh723 on Sept 22, 2022 21:57:39 GMT -5
What charge weight h4198? What twist is barrel? Are you using a wad?
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Post by ET on Sept 23, 2022 6:16:35 GMT -5
Saskshooter
The impression I'm getting from the info you have conveyed is the ignition source is not hot enough to properly ignite mentioned powders. I would look at primer and Breech Plug more closely. Also, H110 is not a recommended powder for SML usage whereas VV110 is.
Ed
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Post by smokeeter on Sept 23, 2022 7:04:59 GMT -5
n110 is Vihta Vuori powder, H100 is Hodgdon. Good reminder to use the correct one.
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Post by saskshooter on Sept 23, 2022 7:24:55 GMT -5
Priming- I’m using the Precision Rifle large rifle Vari-Flame system with CCI #250 large rifle magnum primers.
Wads- I’ve tried using cotton fiber, single and double.
Charge weight- my working load with the 310gr Dynamo is 60gr of H4198. With the other bullets I’ve gone from 55 on the low end up to 62.5.
I know there’s a difference between VV 110 and H 110, however I had assumed that, like rifle reloading, powders of similar burn rates can generally be used for the same cartridges with some tweaking, no? VV-110 and H-110 are only 2-3 spaces apart on the burn rate chart if memory serves.
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Post by saskshooter on Sept 23, 2022 7:28:26 GMT -5
Saskshooter The impression I'm getting from the info you have conveyed is the ignition source is not hot enough to properly ignite mentioned powders. I would look at primer and Breech Plug more closely. Ed Also, I should mention- fresh vent liners don’t seem to make a difference. By all means I think my ignition source is as good as it’s gonna get without changing my breechplug system. I briefly talked to Luke at Arrowhead about a plug, but he understandably wants no part in this “Frankenstein” project lol |
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Post by ET on Sept 23, 2022 9:18:42 GMT -5
Saskshooter
I’m going to assume you’ve properly cleaned the carbon out of your BP. The only two areas to check is your head spacing to see if you are getting a good fit with your primer modules. The other item to check is a fired primer to see if it’s getting a good strike from the firing pin. Something as simple as the primer not being fully seated into the module can reduce the blow effectiveness from the firing pin.
H110 is a spherical powder and if any of it works its way into the BP you are going to have a bigger headache.
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Post by saskshooter on Sept 23, 2022 9:32:10 GMT -5
Saskshooter I’m going to assume you’ve properly cleaned the carbon out of your BP. The only two areas to check is your head spacing to see if you are getting a good fit with your primer modules. The other item to check is a fired primer to see if it’s getting a good strike from the firing pin. Something as simple as the primer not being fully seated into the module can reduce the blow effectiveness from the firing pin. H110 is a spherical powder and if any of it works its way into the BP you are going to have a bigger headache. Thanks ET- I hadn't thought to consider the spherical vs extruded powder difference- makes sense. The breechplug is clean, and the primers never fail to fire. I'm getting consistent ignition across the board with H4198, just failure to stabilize with bullets other than the 310gr. With that being said, I haven't tried any heavier bullets from other brands yet, only lighter. The 310gr Dynamos are $27 CAD per 12, which is staggering, even for Canadian prices. I can get a pack of 15-20 T/C or Hornady bullets for dang near half that, so I may just try a 300gr SST or Smackdown and see if increasing weight helps at all. I don't think I'll be able to change powders before season opens- the powder shortage here is ferocious. I don't think I've got any powders that'll work better than 4198 right now- all I have for mid-fast burn rates is H335, 8208XBR, Varget, 760, RL15, H110, etc. |
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Post by dannoboone on Sept 23, 2022 10:06:46 GMT -5
Is the crown at the muzzle evenly machined?
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Post by saskshooter on Sept 23, 2022 10:15:34 GMT -5
Is the crown at the muzzle evenly machined? Yep |
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Post by saskshooter on Sept 23, 2022 10:41:05 GMT -5
What charge weight h4198? What twist is barrel? Are you using a wad? Forgot to add- the barrel is a 1:24" if memory serves. I've been using cotton fiber wads, even double-stacked some to see if it'd help but no bueno. I may have some .45" sub-bases around I suppose I could try. |
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Post by smokeeter on Sept 23, 2022 11:32:23 GMT -5
300 grainers will be key, thinner jacket ie. XTP as opposed to the XTP Mag. fiber or wool wad no need for sub bases they are passee . I use the XTP's regularly and also had luck with 300 gr. Remington .457/8 JHP . I prefer to duplex for guaranteed ignition in colder temps.
there are good reports with Fury bullets being a softer jacket but they are costly too.
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Post by saskshooter on Sept 23, 2022 11:57:47 GMT -5
300 grainers will be key, thinner jacket ie. XTP as opposed to the XTP Mag. fiber or wool wad no need for sub bases they are passee . I use the XTP's regularly and also had luck with 300 gr. Remington .457/8 JHP . I prefer to duplex for guaranteed ignition in colder temps. there are good reports with Fury bullets being a softer jacket but they are costly too. I found some 300gr SST's here which I will give a shot, could likely find XTP's in my area as well. I'll try to get some load testing done tonight or over the weekend here. I'd still really like to drop down to a 250gr to gain some speed... Duplex loads are foreign to me, and really want to avoid them if at all possible, but if that's what it takes, I suppose I'll just have to find some N-110 or the like. |
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Post by cuda on Sept 23, 2022 14:02:07 GMT -5
What size are the 310gr Dynamo bullets and what is the bore measure. It sounds like the barrel could use a real good cleaning too. What action are you using on this gun? The more info we have about the gun help use figure out what could be wrong with it. I have a 45cal Stevens 200 with a MacGowan barrel it is a .450/.458 bore. It shoots Barnes .451 290gr TEZ all copper over a lubed wad with 69gr of IMR4198 with a Win 209. I use Hornady .458 300gr in a BCR over 69gr of IMR4198 with a Win 209 in my 10ML-ll 50cal. Try some JB Bore Brite and see if it takes out the tight spots if not try some valve grinding compound but go easy when using it just work the tight spots. Then I use Brake clean to flush it all out then some clean patches to make sure it is clean.
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Post by saskshooter on Sept 23, 2022 16:38:52 GMT -5
What size are the 310gr Dynamo bullets and what is the bore measure. It sounds like the barrel could use a real good cleaning too. What action are you using on this gun? The more info we have about the gun help use figure out what could be wrong with it. I have a 45cal Stevens 200 with a MacGowan barrel it is a .450/.458 bore. It shoots Barnes .451 290gr TEZ all copper over a lubed wad with 69gr of IMR4198 with a Win 209. I use Hornady .458 300gr in a BCR over 69gr of IMR4198 with a Win 209 in my 10ML-ll 50cal. Try some JB Bore Brite and see if it takes out the tight spots if not try some valve grinding compound but go easy when using it just work the tight spots. Then I use Brake clean to flush it all out then some clean patches to make sure it is clean. Hey Cuda- the barrel was listed as a Green Mountain .452" barrel, though I haven't slugged it to be 100% sure. The 310gr Dynamos mic out at .450"-.4505" on my caliper. The barrel is very clean- scrubbed to bare metal with Wipeout. The action is a small shank CIL/Savage. I borescoped it as previously mentioned, and saw she was rough internally, and had nasty tight spots, so I worked out the tight spots with a hot-poured lead lap (the "Larry Potterfield" method from the old gunsmithing dvd's) and valve grinding compound as you suggest. The bore is now beautifully smooth and even inside, and bullets seat very smoothly. 69gr of 4198 sounds rather warm, no? I've never loaded over 62gr thus far. As I said before the issue isn't simple inaccuracy as would be seen with a lack of cleaning, but it is that every bullet I've tried (both before and after lapping) with the exception of the 310gr Dymano, is hitting the target sideways at 100 yards. What smokeeter was saying makes sense- seems like I've got obturation issues, as the light bullets don't stabilize, and appear to not be gripping rifling upon firing. As I understand it, going to a heavier bullet will increase start pressure and "kick" the bullets into the rifling better. |
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Post by smokeeter on Sept 23, 2022 18:41:36 GMT -5
Sask, I sent you a PM
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Post by smokepolehall on Sept 24, 2022 9:44:18 GMT -5
If your bullets are key-holing n tumbling the velocity is too low. You have to get them bullets rotating fast to obturate
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Post by sideshow on Sept 24, 2022 14:19:20 GMT -5
Id Try some softer Speer gold-dot bullets or something of theirs if available up there but bc isnt good . These obturate easy with thin .015 jackets and softer lead . Bp or subs will obturate them no problem just dont expect exit holes drove at smokeless velocity on deer But lungs and heart will pour out like soup . Fury offers L-Tipped bullets like this pointed but still no great bc . You havent given any details of barrel contour and/or a pic of the barrel . Is it still a nut barrel or a shoulder build now ?? This would be helpfull to know for how hard to push the load/powder . A veggie wad or polywad may help your obturation/ignition too but with 60 to 62gr of 4198 its hard to imagine that issue in warmer weather . That bplug may be the problem especially when temps drop . Duplex may be mandatory for you because of it regardless . A 1 in 24 is a hinderance too far more than it helps anything for accuracy . Cecil doesnt do bad reports thats for sure !!! Even when proven wrong For Years by every other muzzleloader out there .
Longer high bc(xld) or harder bullets(sst) will probably always be a problem for you .
Just sayin.......
Id try 65gr 4198 and a 275 but no more than 67 or 68gr in a 1 powder load . Maybe 70gr 4198 absolute tops with a 250gr bullet and a nut barrel . If that dont work For Sale Signs May on that barrel and plug . Find a faster twist barrel and a better ignition system and keep your hair .
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Post by sw on Sept 25, 2022 7:53:20 GMT -5
Heed the warning on H-110!
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Post by saskshooter on Sept 27, 2022 14:02:11 GMT -5
Id Try some softer Speer gold-dot bullets or something of theirs if available up there but bc isnt good . These obturate easy with thin .015 jackets and softer lead . Bp or subs will obturate them no problem just dont expect exit holes drove at smokeless velocity on deer But lungs and heart will pour out like soup . Fury offers L-Tipped bullets like this pointed but still no great bc . You havent given any details of barrel contour and/or a pic of the barrel . Is it still a nut barrel or a shoulder build now ?? This would be helpfull to know for how hard to push the load/powder . A veggie wad or polywad may help your obturation/ignition too but with 60 to 62gr of 4198 its hard to imagine that issue in warmer weather . That bplug may be the problem especially when temps drop . Duplex may be mandatory for you because of it regardless . A 1 in 24 is a hinderance too far more than it helps anything for accuracy . Cecil doesnt do bad reports thats for sure !!! Even when proven wrong For Years by every other muzzleloader out there . Longer high bc(xld) or harder bullets(sst) will probably always be a problem for you . Just sayin....... Id try 65gr 4198 and a 275 but no more than 67 or 68gr in a 1 powder load . Maybe 70gr 4198 absolute tops with a 250gr bullet and a nut barrel . If that dont work For Sale Signs May on that barrel and plug . Find a faster twist barrel and a better ignition system and keep your hair . Hey sideshow, thanks for the reply as well. Funnily enough, I found some 185gr Sig V-Crowns and Speer Gold Dots here, but I was suspicious of their high-speed performance, so I called Speer and asked- the tech I spoke with sounded like he nearly spit out his coffee when I asked him about how their bullets would perform at 2800-3000 FPS lol. Sadly Fury won't ship to Canada right now, so I have no access to them as far as I can see. The gun is set up with a barrel nut right now, and the profile is a straight 1" cylinder for the ~5" of barrel, then taper down to I believe about .850" at muzzle (28"). I know the long bullets will always suck from a 1:24, but I was at least hoping to be able to push a 250gr with some speed for my shots here on the prairies. I'll try going to a hotter charge with the 250's and see if I can source some veggie wads around here to help with obduration, if those don't help, I'll stick with the heavier bullets till I can dig up something to try a duplex load with. Mulie muzzleloader season opens here on the 1st of October, and my lady drew a coveted trophy tag for Zone 44, so I'm really getting down to the wire lol. Looks like I may have to run the Dynamos for one more year yet, but I really appreciate everyone's help here!! |
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Post by sideshow on Sept 27, 2022 21:03:59 GMT -5
I hope you two have great success with that Tag . I hope you get to take home a dandy !!!
With all the obturation suspisions i knew those would obturate , the XTP Mags may very well not . But as soft as they are a heaver one will do a rather messy job on deer . It wont be pretty however inside that deer . Slower would be better for them no doubt . The loads i posted at the end are absolute max in a barrel nut to me . Not really a reccomendation to seek out and push the limits with . I was hopeing for obturation with what you have and saying dont go beyond if i were you .
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Post by saskshooter on Sept 28, 2022 9:38:53 GMT -5
Just another thought here, since I'd still like to avoid the Dynamos- anyone here have experience with the Nosler part # 31456 .458" 300gr Ballistic Tip? Looks to be pretty thin jacketed, and should be heavy enough to generate a good start pressure without being too long to obdurate.
It's a little on the fat side at .458" vs .452", but I'm sure I could get it down to size through the Swinglock, and they're way cheaper than the Dynamos too.
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Post by smokeeter on Sept 28, 2022 12:05:40 GMT -5
The Nosler .458 300 gr. BT's have two versions. the first was a round nose plastic tip the latter version is more of a spitzer tip. They both have a fairly thin jacket so obturation isn't difficult ( I full formed the bullets for my rifle). I have used both with success just avoid heavy bone. As I recall they were costly.   I did notice they have different product numbers. But both refered to as Ballistic Tip  |
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Post by saskshooter on Sept 28, 2022 13:05:18 GMT -5
Ah smokeeter you're the man! That's exactly what I was hoping to hear!
I believe the roundnose "Combined Technology" Ballistic Tips are made for .45/70 in tube mags, while the pointed ones are made for the .458 SOCOM or single-loaded .45/70.
The Dynamos run me just about $3 CAD per bullet after tax and shipping, whereas I can order the Noslers for closer to $1.80 apiece through work.
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